topic Re: Denoise AI in 12.3 in Lightroom Classic Discussions

12 Minute render in Denoise AI in 12.3

Photosteve729 — Fri, 19 May 2023 13:53:10 GMT

I was interested to try out the new Denoise AI in 12.3. It seemed to work pretty well in some preliminary tests, though 1 image produced a ton of green artifacts in what started ot as a black sky (with a lot of noise).

The major issue for me, though, is that the module reports it will take it 12 minutes or more to render the DNG file. I didn't time this, but it was certainly more than 10 minutes. I've watched a demo/tutorial and their video showed expected times in the 10 to 15 SECOND reange. Nothing else I use in LR has major delays.

My computer is 5 years old and won't support Windows 11, but nothing else takes an outrageous amount of time. Exporting DNG files for Panoramas might take a few seconds, but nothing like this. Is this a processor issue for me or are others experiencing this sort of time issue?

Re: Denoise AI in 12.3

dj_paige — Thu, 20 Apr 2023 12:58:46 GMT

I think it depends on the speed and amount of memory of your GPU. The AI noise reduction task is the most computationally intensive tool in LrC. A 5 year old computer most likely does not have the GPU power to do this in 10-15 seconds.

Re: Denoise AI in 12.3

Keith Reeder — Sat, 22 Apr 2023 16:03:27 GMT

Yep, what DJ said.

For context, my (Win 10) PC takes about a minute to render Canon R7 cRAW files - this is a machine with a far-from-cutting-edge Radeon RX580 8gb - so it's probably safe to assume that your GPU is markedly less powerful than that.

As a further point of reference, the same machine will spit out a tiff of the same file from On1 Photo Raw 2023 in about 10-15 seconds, and the results are significantly better.

(Why Adobe insists on creating a DNG file in preference to writing a tiff or a jpeg, baffles me. It means that I can no longer go from RAW file to finalised output within Lr, in one run - which adds precisely nothing of value to the experience.)

Re: Denoise AI in 12.3

D Fosse — Thu, 20 Apr 2023 13:53:34 GMT

Yes, the GPU is pretty crucial here. I've run it a few times on two machines with different GPU, but otherwise almost identical hardware.

One machine has an RTX 3060 with 12 GB, and it takes about 15 - 20 seconds on 45-60 MP raw files.

The othe has an older Quadro P2200 with 5 GB, and here it takes 2 - 3 minutes on the same files.

Everything works without problems, but the speed difference is dramatic.

Re: Denoise AI in 12.3

Ian Lyons — Thu, 20 Apr 2023 14:15:23 GMT

There are GPUs and then there are GPUs with cores dedicated to Machine Learning / AI tasks. For example, Tensor cores on more recent NVidia GPU cards and Neural Engine on Aple Silicon Macs. The ML / AI cores make a huge difference to the time taken for any of the AI based tasks in LrC / LrD and ACR.

What does above mean?

Take a typical first generation M1 Mac from late 2020 - it has 8 GPU cores and 16 Neural Engine cores. Time to Denoise a Canon EOS R5 file is around 50 seconds. Now take the most powerful of the M1 generation Macs from mid 2022 - the M1 Ultra has 48 GPU cores and 32 Neural Engine cores, and can process the same EOS R5 file in 15 seconds.

Re: Denoise AI in 12.3

Photosteve729 — Thu, 20 Apr 2023 22:25:32 GMT

thanks to all. This is the answer I was expecting, but hoped for a different result.

My computer runs Intel i5 @ 2.5 gHz with 20 GB Ram. Nothing else seems to take a long time to complete inside LR, though it is noticeably slower than what I can see others experrience in other editing in demonstrations. Topaz AI is slow, sometimes taking 45 seconds on my R6 RAW files but 13 minutes with not much else affected--it just seemed wrong. I've been considering buying a new machine. Five years old does seem to be the life span of computers, even with no problems encountered.

Re: Denoise AI in 12.3

Jao vdL — Thu, 20 Apr 2023 22:52:09 GMT

As pointed out, it is the GPU that matters and whether it has dedicated AI/ML cores. on my M1 Max it indeed takes 10-15 seconds for a Z7 raw file but the GPU cores and the AI/ML dedicated cores are crazy on those machines. You're not going to see that with anything older than a few years unfortunately. Also, the quality of the denoise is lightyears (sorry for the pun) ahead of Topaz denoise or even on raw files using Photo AI in my testing with far fewer artifacts. Quite a bit slower but far better. Adobe's enhance includes the demosaic step in the calculations which is one reason why it is slower but much better quality.

Re: Denoise AI in 12.3

D Fosse — Fri, 21 Apr 2023 07:08:44 GMT

I have to revise those numbers above slightly (repeated with stopwatch). 60 MP at 33 seconds.

When I get into work later I'll try with the older Quadro P2200 GPU on that machine, I expect several minutes there on the same files.

EDIT: Indeed. 3 minutes and 15 seconds, on the very same file.

Conclusion: you may not need a very fancy GPU, but you need a new one.

Re: Denoise AI in 12.3

D Fosse — Fri, 21 Apr 2023 07:34:57 GMT

Checked some older 36 MP files, and the timings are reduced in proportion. So it seems there is little overhead, and timings are more or less directly dependent on pixel size.

Re: Denoise AI in 12.3

robertkaplanphotography — Fri, 21 Apr 2023 18:38:41 GMT

I have a 5+ year old PC with 32 Gigs of RAM and an i3 Intel chip. Toapz DeNoise and AI Photo processes the converted JPEG in <30 sec. So assume the delay is also exacerbated (pulled that one out) by converting to and processing the DNG rather than a JPEG.

Re: Denoise AI in 12.3

Keith Reeder — Sat, 22 Apr 2023 16:05:11 GMT

Which camera?

What GPU?

(We need context for your timings to have relevance - RAM and CPU aren't really the issue here.)

Re: Denoise AI in 12.3

Ian Lyons — Sat, 22 Apr 2023 14:15:46 GMT

I need to correct myself as the information provided re Denoise using the Neural Engine is not correct. Currently, the Apple Neural Engine found in M1/M2 silicon Macs is not used by Denoise. It's expected that performance will be even better when Denoise does use the Apple Neural Engine.

There is no change to above comments regarding the use of Tensor cores in NVidia cards. That is, Tensor cores are used by Denoise.

Re: Denoise AI in 12.3

altar23003614lmmg — Tue, 25 Apr 2023 08:09:16 GMT

Where do you have this information from? The original article says
Finally, we built our machine learning models to take full advantage of the latest platform technologies, including NVIDIA’s TensorCores and the Apple Neural Engine. Using these technologies enables our models to run faster on modern hardware.

Re: Denoise AI in 12.3

Ian Lyons — Tue, 25 Apr 2023 08:52:09 GMT

Apparently, an issue on Apple side means that the Neural Engine is not used by Adobe Denoise. When the issue is addressed, then Adobe Denoise is ready to take advantage of the Neural Engine.

Re: Denoise AI in 12.3

Rikk Flohr: Photography — Tue, 25 Apr 2023 12:28:02 GMT

@Ian Lyons information is correct regarding the Neural Engine on Apple devices

Re: Denoise AI in 12.3

robertkaplanphotography — Tue, 25 Apr 2023 14:12:04 GMT

Sorry. Z9, no GPU. Just onboard Intel graphics chip

Re: Denoise AI in 12.3

bakubo — Tue, 02 May 2023 04:51:07 GMT

Here is a long thread on the DXO forum that has been going for 6+ months about color problems when using the Apple Silicon Neural Engine, but not when using the Apple Silicon GPU:

https://feedback.dxo.com/t/deepprime-xd-introduces-purple-overlay-chromatic-aberration/29191/17

Is this the Neural Engine problem that Adobe found and is waiting for Apple to fix?

Re: Denoise AI in 12.3

bakubo — Tue, 02 May 2023 05:31:01 GMT

DXO even has a big red notice about the Apple Neural Engine bug:

Re: Denoise AI in 12.3

Ian Lyons — Tue, 02 May 2023 06:14:07 GMT

I don't know the specifics, only that there is a bug related to the Apple Neural Engine that Adobe avoids by not using the Neural Engine.

I don't use DxO products, and until you posted a link had no knowledge of the discussion.

Re: Denoise AI in 12.3

bakubo — Tue, 02 May 2023 21:00:53 GMT

DXO has been waiting for 6+ months for this Neural Engine bug to get fixed by Apple. Apparently it was introduced in Ventura because people in the DXO forum say that it works properly in Monterey.

Apple is notorious for not fixing bugs and the bugs just hang around for many years, release after release. I hope this is not one of those cases. I assume Adobe is more high profile and has more pull with Apple to get Neural Engine bugs fixed though. Fingers crossed.