How to choose when to embed custom .dcp in DNG Converted file

DNG Converter (9.8, but earlier also) appears to always load into the converted DNG file one of the custom .dcp profiles available for the camera in the ...\CameraRaw\CameraProfiles directory.  The only way I have found to make it load the default profile (which I assume is Adobe Standard) into the .DNG file is to delete all custom profiles for the camera from the directory.  I need these DNG files for purposes other than LR/ACR.

Is there a way to control whether to load a custom .dcp profile and, if so, which one of those available in ...\CameraRaw\CameraProfiles?

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How to choose when to embed custom .dcp in DNG Converted file

DNG Converter (9.8, but earlier also) appears to always load into the converted DNG file one of the custom .dcp profiles available for the camera in the ...\CameraRaw\CameraProfiles directory.  The only way I have found to make it load the default profile (which I assume is Adobe Standard) into the .DNG file is to delete all custom profiles for the camera from the directory.  I need these DNG files for purposes other than LR/ACR.

Is there a way to control whether to load a custom .dcp profile and, if so, which one of those available in ...\CameraRaw\CameraProfiles?

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Re: How to choose when to embed custom .dcp in DNG Converted file

Adobe Community Professional, Dec 15, 2016

I don't think the DNG converter loads any custom profile. That is determined by Lightroom or camera raw. By default, Adobe Standard is the profile chosen. However, you can set your own camera defaults and have any of the available profiles loaded.

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Re: How to choose when to embed custom .dcp in DNG Converted file

Hi Jim.  I was quite surprised to find out that DNG Converter does indeed load one of the profiles into the DNG converted file (e.g. when opened in matlab it only shows one matrix for illuminant 23, what I have in one of those .dcp profiles).  The question is how do I tell it not to; or, alternatively, which one to load?

Thanks for your help.

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Re: How to choose when to embed custom .dcp in DNG Converted file

FWIW this is what Exiftool reports for the DNG converted file:

ExifDump.PNG

If I remove custom .dcp profiles from the ...\CameraProfiles directory, it loads what I would expect it to load (2 CM, 2FM, illuminant 17 and 21).  Weird, huh? 

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Re: How to choose when to embed custom .dcp in DNG Converted file

Adobe Community Professional, Dec 19, 2016

Gh0st_9 wrote:

FWIW this is what Exiftool reports for the DNG converted file:

ExifDump.PNG

If I remove custom .dcp profiles from the ...\CameraProfiles directory, it loads what I would expect it to load (2 CM, 2FM, illuminant 17 and 21). Weird, huh?

I can confirm what you are seeing. It appears Adobe DNG Converter uses the topmost Alpha-Numeric sort camera profile name in the folder where your 'Default Camera Profile' is located. On my system the LR and ACR default camera profile for all my cameras is set to a custom 'User' folder located camera profile as follows. I have created phantom profiles called "Placeholder" that will be "automatically" assigned if I accidentally delete any of the custom profiles currently in use. It's a long story, but I use over 160 custom profiles. Here's what I see in the the Adobe DNG Converter created DNG file:

...and here's where it is being pulled from:

That said when I import the Adobe DNG Converter created DNG file it is correctly assigned my LR (or ACR) default camera profile.

Lightroom CC 2015.8

ACR 9.8

Interestingly, if I use menu item Photo> 'Update DNG Preview & Metadata' inside LR the same incorrect profile appears. Apparently you have to make a setting change to the image inside the Develop module to invoke an actual update of the DNG Preview & Metadata. Otherwise it is null!

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Re: How to choose when to embed custom .dcp in DNG Converted file

Adobe Community Professional, Dec 20, 2016

I was hoping that someone like you would respond to this question. I sort of understand what you are doing, but I'm not nearly as advanced as you are. But I do have one question. Even though the DNG converter adds a profile (which I did not understand previously), isn't that overwritten by Lightroom or camera raw depending on defaults?

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Re: How to choose when to embed custom .dcp in DNG Converted file

Adobe Community Professional, Dec 20, 2016

JimHess wrote:

Even though the DNG converter adds a profile (which I did not understand previously), isn't that overwritten by Lightroom or camera raw depending on defaults?

I have no experience with the Adobe DNG Converter other than in response to this post. I downloaded and installed the latest 9.8 version to test it and can confirm what the OP is seeing. It embeds a "custom" camera profile located in the 'User' folder, which makes no sense. In my case opening the DNG file in LR CC 2015.8 shows my "default" camera profile and NOT the embedded profile. If using an earlier version of LR that doesn't support that camera model I would assume the embedded profile would remain assigned.

Isn't the primary purpose of the Adobe DNG Converter to allow editing raw image files in earlier versions of LR and ACR that lack support for newer model cameras? Perhaps someone with more experience using the Adobe DNG Converter for this purpose can comment.

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Re: How to choose when to embed custom .dcp in DNG Converted file

Adobe Community Professional, Dec 20, 2016

I have never taken the time to use exiftool to look at the image. I think it's curious that DNG converter chooses a profile. I don't use the converter very often myself. But going back to comments by the OP,  I wonder what is gained by converting an image to DNG if it's never going to be opened by other software. And if it embeds a profile based on profiles that are installed at the time the conversion takes place, it's possible that that profile won't even be available when/if the DNG file is eventually opened.

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Re: How to choose when to embed custom .dcp in DNG Converted file

Adobe Community Professional, Dec 20, 2016

JimHess wrote:

I think it's curious that DNG converter chooses a profile

My thought is that it embeds a profile so that the DNG file can be opened in earlier versions of LR or ACR that don't support newer camera model files. But I would expect it to embed the Adobe Standard camera profile. I think the OP's issue is that he has created custom camera profiles using a ColorChecker Passport or Adobe DNG Profile Editor. Adobe DNG Converter then detects their presence and for some reason uses the topmost Alpha-Numeric sort camera profile name in the User folder where the are located. I've seen this happen on my system when a currently used custom camera profile has been deleted. This fall-back behavior is why I created phantom duplicate "default camera profiles" with an underscore at the beginning of the name (see reply #19).

JimHess wrote:

And if it embeds a profile based on profiles that are installed at the time the conversion takes place, it's possible that that profile won't even be available when/if the DNG file is eventually opened.

The actual camera profile file is embedded in the DNG file and will appear in LR or ACR in the Camera Calibration dropdown Profile list. I tested this by creating a DNG file with Adobe DNG Converter and then deleted the assigned profile from my User camera profiles folder. When I open the DNG file the deleted camera profile is in dropdown Profile list. If I then select the raw file (CR2) used to create the DNG file it is missing from the list. So clearly the actual camera profile is embedded and can be selected.

I think this behavior is a bug that remains undiscovered by Adobe.

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Re: How to choose when to embed custom .dcp in DNG Converted file

Thanks trshaner for the confirmation.  It would be helpful if someone who works on DNG Converter were alerted to this issue so that they could deal with it pro-actively.  I think it would make sense for DNG Converter to load the default (Adobe Standard?) profile by default, and a custom one as an option.

Jim, I use DNG Converter because it is a standard/open source format that contains all information necessary to render a raw file independently of the software used.  In my case, I then use matlab to open the .dng.

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Re: How to choose when to embed custom .dcp in DNG Converted file

Adobe Community Professional, Dec 21, 2016

I suggest reporting this as a 'Problem' here: Photoshop Family Customer Community

Use a subject heading that describes the actual issue, such as 'Adobe DNG Converter Embeds Incorrect Camera Profile.' In the report place a link to this post "for further information" and a link here to the 'Problem Report' post (i.e. cross-link).

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Re: How to choose when to embed custom .dcp in DNG Converted file

Thanks for the suggestion.  Here is the problem report.

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Re: How to choose when to embed custom .dcp in DNG Converted file

Adobe Community Professional, Dec 15, 2016

I have no idea. All of my experience has been that whatever profile I have specified as the default in Lightroom or camera raw is the profile that is loaded. However, I haven't created or purchased any custom profiles.

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Re: How to choose when to embed custom .dcp in DNG Converted file

Ok thanks.  Anybody else?  It's a pain to have to erase all .dcp profiles every time one wants to have a DNG loaded up with defaults to use with other software, especially because one then has to put them back in there if one wants to use them with ACR/LR.

How can one tell DNG converter to load default profile information in the converted DNG?  Or at least choose which profile to load?

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Re: How to choose when to embed custom .dcp in DNG Converted file

Adobe Community Professional, Dec 18, 2016

Thinking about this a little more, you can't tell the DNG converter to load a specific  profile. The profile that is loaded is the one that is set as the default in whatever program is opening The file. Check your defaults.

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Re: How to choose when to embed custom .dcp in DNG Converted file

Thanks for the suggestion Jim.  However, DNG conversion happens first and independently of subsequent possible opening by any number of programs.  One in fact may never open the DNG file, or open it only in the distant future, even then possibly not with programs currently installed.  And FYI the exifTool screenshot above occurred just after DNG conversion, before I opened the file with any program.

I checked the various versions of ACR I have installed and they all show 'Camera Raw' as the default in the camera calibration panel.  DNG Profile Editor does not seem to have such a default, and the relative 'options' panel is clear when first opened.  The default profile setting in third party programs I use (like RawTherapee, RawDigger, dcraw and matlab), if it exists, does not point to the loaded profile and in any case it seems unlikely that DNG Converter would consult them before performing its conversion.

So how do we tell DNG Converter not to load custom profiles?  Or, better yet, what profile to load, including Adobe's Standard?

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Re: How to choose when to embed custom .dcp in DNG Converted file

Adobe Community Professional, Dec 19, 2016

There must be something not quite right with your installation of camera raw. If it is showing you a profile called, "Camera Raw" then that isn't something normal. You should be seeing the choices of Adobe Standard, Camera Standard, etc. I see from your screenshot that this is a NEF file from apparently a Nikon D50. There should be the standard Nikon profiles available for that model. It wouldn't do any good for the DNG converter to embed any specific profile because none of the Adobe applications read that EXIF Setting. It is one of the nonstandard settings that Adobe programs such as Photoshop ignore. I don't know why you are not seeing the regular camera profiles. What version of Photoshop or other Adobe software are you using? I have never seen nor heard of "Camera Raw" being a profile choice in Lightroom or Photoshop. Again, something is wrong with your installation. The DNG converter DOES NOT embed a camera profile. Camera profiles are embedded by the camera and are read by software from the manufacturer. This would mean that programs such as Nikon's ViewNX2 will read a profile  selected in-camera. But that selection will be ignored in Adobe software.

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Re: How to choose when to embed custom .dcp in DNG Converted file

Jim,

1) I use the latest version of PS CC and ACR, which indeed shows 'Camera Raw Defaults' in the Camera Calibration Panel.  As do all other versions of ACR I have (6.7 and 7.4).

ACR CC.png

2) The camera is a Nikon D610. D50 is the reference illuminant of the profile.  It is an indication that the custom profile was loaded, because it has one  matrix and one illuminant only, while in normal Adobe profiles there are two matrices and illuminants.  The illuminants are A and D65, not D50.

3) Therefore DNG Converter DOES INDEED embed a .dcp profile in the converted DNG file, albeit a custom one, which I do not want.

4) I agree with you that it is strange and unproductive that DNG converter loads the first custom profile it sees lying around.  That's why I started this thread.

So now that you better understand the issue, any suggestions?

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Re: How to choose when to embed custom .dcp in DNG Converted file

Adobe Community Professional, Dec 19, 2016

That isn't where you click to see the different camera profiles. This is where you need to look:

Capture.JPG

The icon that you have clicked on is where you can choose  between the camera raw defaults or a preset that you have created, or you can create and save a new preset. But the different camera profiles are not listed there. You have to click on the drop-down that I have highlighted to see the different profiles. And whether you believe it or not, the profile that is initially displayed  is the one that is part of your camera raw defaults. If you want something different then you have to change that setting and then create new camera defaults.

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Re: How to choose when to embed custom .dcp in DNG Converted file

Sure, if I open a NEF with PS, ACR pops up and I get the Adobe Standard profile by default, as I would expect.  If I click there I see all of Adobe's profiles plus a few of my custom ones, as I always have.

However, If I open the same NEF file after DNG Conversion, ACR shows my custom profile by default.  No good, because I did not select that profile, I just converted the NEF to .dng.

Why does DNG Converter arbitrarily load a custom profile into the converted .dng file?

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Re: How to choose when to embed custom .dcp in DNG Converted file

Adobe Community Professional, Dec 19, 2016

I'm afraid we are at an impasse. I don't know the answer to your question. I do know that the DNG converter does not embed a profile. If you convert a file from each camera, do you get the same custom profile? There's something going on here that just doesn't seem right. Have you created any custom profiles using the DNG profile creator? And have you arbitrarily or accidentally created some defaults that include that profile?

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Re: How to choose when to embed custom .dcp in DNG Converted file

DNG Converter ALWAYS embeds a profile, it's just that normally one would expect it to be the default one (e.g. Adobe Standard).   And that's how it seems to work for all other raw files from cameras for which I do not have a custom profile in the indicated directory.  I have created custom profiles using DNG Profile Editor - but that's not the one that gets loaded by DNG Converter.  And I am not aware of having created any defaults.  In any case DNG Converter is a separate program that should work independently of any other installed/not installed software.  As I said, perhaps a converted .dng file will never be opened by an installed program.

What are the thoughts of someone who works on DNG Converter?

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Re: How to choose when to embed custom .dcp in DNG Converted file

Adobe Community Professional, Dec 19, 2016

It would not accomplish anything for the DNG converter to embed a camera profile because Camera Raw and Lightroom do not read and apply that information. It just doesn't. The profile that is loaded is the one that is part of your Camera Raw default settings. But since you don't accept that fact, I will leave the discussion hoping that someone with more knowledge will be able to help you.

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Re: How to choose when to embed custom .dcp in DNG Converted file

I would accept that fact if it were true, Jim, but I think I have shown you that that is not the case.  Have a read of the DNG spec for your own edification.  There you will find entries with names like these

DNGSpec.PNG 

etc.  Every single DNG Converted file I have looked into (mostly over the last year or so) has had entries for every single one of those. Pity that for my own camera, instead of loading the defaults (which I assume refer to Adobe Standard) it loads a custom profile

Anyways, I appreciate your effort.  Thanks.

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Re: How to choose when to embed custom .dcp in DNG Converted file

Adobe Community Professional, Dec 19, 2016

Then change the defaults. But that has to be done in camera raw, not the DNG converter.

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Re: How to choose when to embed custom .dcp in DNG Converted file

Where would I change those, I have shown you in the image above that they already are at 'Camera Raw Defaults'.

And why would DNG Converter get its cues from ACR?  Isn't it supposed to be a standalone program?  Folks may not even have ACR/LR installed when they run it.

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Re: How to choose when to embed custom .dcp in DNG Converted file

Adobe Community Professional, Dec 19, 2016

Near the bottom of that list that is showing the checkmark for camera raw defaults, there is an option to save new camera raw defaults. You open a new image and set everything that you want to be default, and then you click on that option and those settings will become the new defaults for the camera. Doing this has no impact on the DNG converter for the reasons that I have explained previously. I don't know why that profile is showing in exiftool, but you are getting the wrong idea completely. The default profile is determined by the settings in camera raw. If you want different settings including a different profile, set them and then save new camera defaults.

At the risk of being overly redundant, the default camera profile is set in Camera Raw along with any other settings that you want customized for your camera. You can have any profile that's available for your camera set as the default profile. This includes the camera-matching profiles that Adobe creates as well as any custom profiles that you may have created. Camera Raw DOES NOT read the camera profile setting for ANY camera. But you can configure Camera Raw to load any profile that is specific to your camera model.

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