Preview Button!!!!

Hello, I am incredibly upset about the removal of the preview button in Camera Raw. It has completely interrupted my workflow. I don't mind the ADDITION of new features for those who make take advantage of them, but the REMOVAL of perfectly good features that many of us are used to using is asinine and if you can't tell I am rather upset about it. Please for the sake of god bring it back.

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Preview Button!!!!

Hello, I am incredibly upset about the removal of the preview button in Camera Raw. It has completely interrupted my workflow. I don't mind the ADDITION of new features for those who make take advantage of them, but the REMOVAL of perfectly good features that many of us are used to using is asinine and if you can't tell I am rather upset about it. Please for the sake of god bring it back.

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181 Replies

Re: Preview Button!!!!

Can you describe the workflow you use(d) in which you employed the Preview button?

Perhaps there's another way to "get there from here" with the new version.

-Noel

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Re: Preview Button!!!!

I understand the "before and after" button, but if you go on to another

photo you cant use it anymore. It's very frustrating. I would edit a photo

and check the preview button to see the before and after, then move on.

Sometimes I would find something that works different in another photo and

want to go back and make small tweaks to a previous photo and I would still

want to use the preview button to compare to the original, not the first or

second or third edit. It is very frustrating.

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Re: Preview Button!!!!

Jules, if I understand your particular issue -- that you would like to be able to revert to the original image as it existed before any changes were made -- one option is to set a snapshot when you first open an image.  The snapshot panel is accessed through the far right icon, next to the presets icon.  However, if you do select the original snapshot after you've made changes to the image, I'm not sure how you would then revert to the image with the changes.

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Re: Preview Button!!!!

Jules,

I am delighted that you have raised this problem.   I highlighted the issue in this forum on 06 March 2014 following use of the beta version of ACR 8.4 in Photoshop.   My particular concern was the inability to review the consecutive changes I made to my image individually with each of the panels (basic, tone curve, detail etc).   My post had no replies.   For me, being able to see the sequential changes I make to my image is fundamental to the flexibility of ACR and I would wholeheartedly join you in asking Adobe to reinstate this facility.

Thom.

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Re: Preview Button!!!!

I would rather see the before and after each as full screen. I dont have a

40 inch monitor to be able to seem them full size.

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Re: Preview Button!!!!

I apologize for being so upset, but it is very frustrating to attempt to do

something and find it's been changed. I've noticed that there is no way at

all to see what the original photo looked like without resetting all your

adjustments. The new "before and after" buttons only go back to your most

recent settings. Not what the original photo was. I don't care what my last

edit looked like, I want to know what my original looked like and what my

current edit looks like. Again I apologize for being so upset, and I

appreciate your time.

Very Respectfully,

Jules

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Re: Preview Button!!!!

stlouiscrash09 wrote:

The new "before and after" buttons only go back to your most

recent settings. Not what the original photo was. I don't care what my last

edit looked like, I want to know what my original looked like and what my

current edit looks like.

In the main ACR flyout window, select Image Settings to see what the image looked like when you opened it, to go back to the current adjusted setting, select Custom Settings. You can toggle back and forth using Undo.

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Re: Preview Button!!!!

I have a related question: the new "global" before / after is nice for me - well, to a certain degree, I share stlouiscrash09 point of view regarding the fact that once the settings are saved into the xmp, that will be the new "before" from now on when the file is opened again. But anyway, as Jeff pointed out, there is a workaround via the flyout menu.

What I don't like, or maybe I'm confused, is the fact that previously, we could use the old "preview" checkbox see a before/after just for the current panel. According to Julieanne Kost's blog, this feature still exists in ACR 8.4 via the "p" key:

“While in the standard single-view, tapping the “P” key will still hide/show settings for only the selected panel

But when I press "P", it does the same as "Q": it toggles between the before and the after (but without the split-screen interface). In other words, if I turn the image to grayscale from "HSL Grayscale", and then apply a vignette from "FX", the old preview checkbox would allow me to do a selective "on / off" for one setting or the other (grayscale or vignette, depending on which panel I'm in). But now, pressing "P" just goes ahead and enables/disables everything.

It's strange that as far as I know, nobody else seems to have complained about this, so I'm afraid I'm misunderstanding something. But I'm unable to find the answer by myself so I'd rather ask. Thanks for any clarification about this issue.

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Re: Preview Button!!!!

I too took Julianne Kost's statement to mean that the "P" key could still be used to provide a  within panel Preview that the old check box and the "P" key provided in prior Camera Raw versions.   Well it does not!  Since she is an official Adobe representative I will try to contact her for an explanation of why her statement seems to be incorrect.

I use the within panel preview a great deal like many other Adobe Camera Raw users.  If I have to use a more cumbersome process than I find necessary, it is not progress to me.  What Adbobe should have done is left the within panel Preview capability in place and added the new Preview features to it, which all would have seen as an improvement.  In my world Product Managers and Marketing Management set product specifications not engineers.

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Re: Preview Button!!!!

gamma673: I'm glad that someone else has paid attention to it. But not only that: I asked about that statement here (it's a different blog entry since the comments on the original one were already closed when 8.4 final came out - search for "Carlos" to see my question), and I got an answer by Jeffrey Tranberry (Adobe staff) asking me what PS version I was using. I answered back with the details, but he did not reply anymore, which is ok since I'm sure he's very busy, but the fact that he asked what version I was using, instead of telling "yes, that behavior is normal and P key is not the same as the old preview checkbox" made me took for granted that there really was something wrong. Anyway, I assume it all has been a series of misunderstandings.

lempinet: Yes, the same thing happens to me: I open a raw file in ACR, draw a graduated filter, press P, and the host application crashes, be it Bridge or Photoshop. I'm using latest versions of everything (Bridge 6.0.1.6, Photoshop CC 14.2.1 and ACR 8.4.1) on Windows 8.1 x64.

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Re: Preview Button!!!!

gamma673 wrote:

In my world Product Managers and Marketing Management set product specifications not engineers.

Well, on ACR, it's Thomas Knoll that sets product specs...and he has an excellent track record to date, don't ya think?

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Re: Preview Button!!!!

What is Thomas Knolls title and email address?  I would like to give  him some input on why this "Dog does not like the taste of the ACR 8.4  Preview  dog food".
No challenging the  primacy of Photoshop!
I do not get revenue  from photography so cash flow is all negative that means I better get psychic  reward to compensate.  Making Photoshop easier to use not harder is a definite  factor in "my" continuing to send $ monthly to Adobe.
By the way I really  liked your Camera to Print video with Michael Reichmann - it  was most helpful and fun to watch.
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Re: Preview Button!!!!

gamma673 wrote:

What is Thomas Knolls title and email address?

Hum, Thomas wrote Photoshop (I presume you've heard of that) and wrote Camera Raw. His title is VP in DI and heads up the ACR engineering team. He's also an Adobe Fellow and a principle scientist at Adobe. He's pretty much a "chief mucky muck" when it comes to raw image processing. And no, sorry, I won't give you his email address :~)

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Re: Preview Button!!!!

gamma673 wrote:

What is Thomas Knolls title and email address?…

TK has probably already read your post or will do so in the next several days.  He and other members of the ACR team are more active in this forum than other Adobe staff in most other Adobe forums.

Given the tenor of your post, don't hold your breath waiting for a reply or comment, though. Guru Jeff Schewe was remarkably restrained in his reply to you.

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Re: Preview Button!!!!

gamma673 wrote:

I do not get revenue  from photography so cash flow is all negative that means I better get psychic  reward to compensate…

You expect psychic powers from Photoshop?  That is the most absurd stretch I've ever read in these forums. 

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Re: Preview Button!!!!

I think what gamma673 is saying is that he/she does photography and image processing for pleasure, and so it ought to be pleasurable to use.

Unfortunately, as products progress inevitably old capabilities will occasionally be left behind.  Quite often product developers find ways to advance functionality without removing the old abilities, but sometimes they just have to remove things in the process.

For users, especially those who have made the deprecated functionality a central part of their workflow, such deprecation can be difficult, for several reasons:

1.  We all have an inherent resistance to change.  This is actually quite unhealthy - we tend to resist precisely that which keeps our minds young and flexible.  Adapting to change is one of the best ways to keep one's brain firing on all cylinders.  But it feels difficult, like exercise - which is precisely what it is.

2.  Occasionally we find (combinations of) features/functions that work particularly well for us.  So well that we tend to think that anyone would be an idiot for not doing things that way, even if most actually don't.  VERY occasionally these things we rely upon are the very things that get changed or removed and we don't see a clear way to do the work another way.  Sometimes there really isn't a good way.  Then we complain.

An anecdote:

A few years ago the Camera Raw team removed an overall "defringing" feature that I liked.  As I am particularly sensitive to "moire" color from de-Bayering at the contrasty edges of things, this was the perfect function for me to get rid of that moire color aberration, and so I enabled the defringing and saved it as my default.

The Adobe team then "replaced" this function with something they clearly thought was better - a de-fringing feature with two sliders with settings and color ranges.  Unfortunately, though it might do the job of de-fringing better, the new feature DIDN'T actually replace the old feature for exactly what it was doing for me - minimizing the moire color noise.  And so my conversions ever after have started out with more moire color aberrations than I have liked.

Thing is, Camera Raw also actually has a Moire Reduction feature in the Adjustment Brush tool - which DOES work but isn't configurable to be used by default, nor is it quick to run (which is probably why it doesn't show up as a main control).  So the team clearly felt they had moire color noise covered, and concentrated on making the de-fringing feature a better de-fringing feature.  Understandable.

However, ever since that change I have gotten more moire color noise in my conversions with my default settings than I had before.  I also get a little more color detail in the images, so tiny colored things like stars and stripes in US flags come out better - the change was not all downside.  But as recently as yesterday I found myself taking time painting out moire color noise in an image of sailboats.

Bottom line:  Life didn't end, and I just had to learn to deal with the problem a different way - a way that actually costs me a little more time occasionally, but which also comes with an upside - my color detail may be a little better.  Are my images better overall?  I actually think so.

C'est la vie.

-Noel

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Re: Preview Button!!!!

I remember the discussions around that moire problem, and I agree that, while the new version with sliders made it more flexible, it did enter in additional work on the part of the user, steps that, if the control actually did a job not being done well at all, it is worth the effort. The overall complication then is worth it. In the case under discussion, I say no, as when the new version of Photoshop introduced the floating document. IIRC, that came at the expense of the older method and a cry went up. The solution was to allow either/or for the user. (I don't use floating).

The conclusion here is the attitude I find from many software producers, which I fought early on when I was doing validation for an  overclocking control. The cumbersome use of the provided UI actually slowed down our testing and the response was that it was a user issue, not a testing issue. My response was I am the user first, and secondly, if I am having problems such that it seems that a user, having the same problems, would not want to use it. Ultimately, we made overall changes in important parameters that, incidentally, provided the software writers better confidence in our results.

Years ago, I read Richard Persig's book "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance". He has a chapter on gumption, and called it gumptionology 101. Just for that it is a good read, and anyone doing software that impacts the user at the UI level needs to take into consideration. This is exactly what is happening here, and has happened in the past. In fact, a major consideration driving my use of given software is that concept exactly. Some of this does involve a learning curve, and that is at the discretion of the user. Do I want to go there? Do I want a degree in EE for instance? If the answer is yes, one climbs the curve.

As to the problem here, if the new version persists as presented, my potential answer is not to use the Snapshot but to make a dupe of the file have both loaded into ACR but leave the dupe unchanged and unsynced, then all I need to do is switch between them for individual checks. It's simpler than making and looking for Snapshots.

Finally a history panel also provides this service. Be nice to see one in ACR. Snapshots then would work really well.

-Lawrence

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Re: Preview Button!!!!

I'd use Snapshots a lot more if I found an easier/quicker way to do it. As it stands, I hardly ever use them. Maybe I need to try harder. Maybe it could be made easier/quicker. I'm not sure which.

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Re: Preview Button!!!!

Yammer wrote:

I'd use Snapshots a lot more if I found an easier/quicker way to do it.

From within any panel, click Command/Shift S (Control/Shift S on Windows) which brings up a dlog to name the snapshot. You don't need to even go to the snapshot panels to save or use snapshots...all saved snapshots are available from the main ACR Flyout window under Apply Snapshot. That makes saving and use snapshots pretty easy...and they are persistant in the raw file's xmp metadata.

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Re: Preview Button!!!!

Is that preferable to having a dupe raw file, unsynced available? Seems that's a bit quicker but there may be some aspect which mitigates against it.

Thanks!

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Re: Preview Button!!!!

Hudechrome wrote:

Is that preferable to having a dupe raw file, unsynced available?

I can't really answer that since I've not tested using a dupe raw file (although I use Virtual Copies a lot in LR which ACR doesn't have).

I guess the main question is the task in which you used to use Preview for and the advantages of the power and flexibility os snapshots. When I am trying to make a determination of an optimal image setting, it's often based on several panels of adjustments (which Preview didn't help with). If you are looking for a binary on/off eval, I agree, the old Preview behavior was useful. But, I don't do that...I'm generally comparing more subtle adjustments from a variety of panels. For this, the new Before/After or using snapshots works better.

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Re: Preview Button!!!!

Remains to be worked through. I could see what the new system for multiple panels offers. Sharpening and noise however, is an on-off check with little to no contribution by the other panels. That being so, probably doing that first is the better start. Having all the panel changes show up examining sharpness is a real distraction, my principle and significant objection. A-B comparisons, from audio visual and such never profit from multiple changes at once. The basic science experiment is to hold all parameters constant except for the one you are testing. While this isn't pure science, it's still good advice. Years of engineering experience has honed that concept to a fine edge. OTOH,

zeroing on on a final result which many times cannot be described, only found, gives the new version the edge.

We need both and without having to fuss for either. Then we can say "Photoshop was faithfully used", to paraphrase Minor White.

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Re: Preview Button!!!!

Jeff Schewe wrote:

From within any panel, click Command/Shift S (Control/Shift S on Windows) which brings up a dlog to name the snapshot. You don't need to even go to the snapshot panels to save or use snapshots...all saved snapshots are available from the main ACR Flyout window under Apply Snapshot. That makes saving and use snapshots pretty easy...and they are persistant in the raw file's xmp metadata.

Thanks, Jeff. That's a new one for me. It helps speed things up a bit.

It would be even better if there was a shortcut(s) for reapplying Snapshots (possibly as bank of several presets) with shortcut keys.

I'll have to review the ACR keyboard shortcut list. Obviously there are some I haven't yet learned.

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Re: Preview Button!!!!

Yammer wrote:

It would be even better if there was a shortcut(s) for reapplying Snapshots (possibly as bank of several presets) with shortcut keys.

Yeah, sadly, there are no shortcuts to apply snapshots...the flyout menu or opening the Snapshots panel are the only way I know if.

But, don't forget ACR has unlimited Undo (unlimited for that particular session) so, if you select multiple snapshots, you can toggle between them using Command/option/Z to move back in time and Command/Shift Z to move forward. To the extent that there's no real "History UI" you can use multiple undo to do history like functions.

So, if you have multiple snapshots, select each one to set the histort state and then use undo/redo to move back and forth between the different snapshot states.

Not the same as having LR's History because you can see the history state in LR but not in ACR.

I think it WOULD be interesting to consider some sort of UI for per session history in ACR. But, I know that it would be very difficult to store history in the xmp metadata, so ACR prolly would not ever have the same history that LR has since the LR history is stored in the catalog database, not xmp (like snapshots are).

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Re: Preview Button!!!!

I suppose that a 'recall last snapshot' keyboard shortcut would be useful here.

I think something that would be relatively easy/useful to implement in ACR would be 'bookmark' and 'restore bookmark' actions/shortcuts. The bookmark action (for want of a better name) would create a temporary snapshot for the duration of the session, which could be recalled later with a similar keyboard shortcut.

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Re: Preview Button!!!!

Arbitrary software change like this are tough on those of us who work under deadlines.

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Re: Preview Button!!!!

Preview?!?!?!?   I can no longer see before and after preview of just my sharpness/noise reduction settings.

I agree with stlouiscrash09. . . . "I am incredibly upset about the removal of the preview button in Camera Raw. It has completely interrupted my workflow. I don't mind the ADDITION of new features for those who make take advantage of them, but the REMOVAL of perfectly good features that many of us are used to using is asinine and if you can't tell I am rather upset about it. Please for the sake of god bring it back."

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Re: Preview Button!!!!

Completely agree with everyone that is upset.

I use the fullscreen preview toggle on/off all the time whenever I make any changes > for every single photo.

It allows you to centre yourself and gain "fresh eyes" on your edit by reverting back to the original to see how far you've come - a vital tool used at the start of my workflow
Not keen to use a slow work-around that achieves a similar result, soI'll be re-downloading 8.3 and am hoping to see the next version of ACR re-introduce this function


Please listen on this one Adobe

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Re: Preview Button!!!!

I am in complete agreement with the comments here, especially the need to view sharpening specifically. If ACR had  History, it would be a no-brainier. I need to be able to do more than use the Ctrl-Z. Toggling between custom and undo still gets me the total change, not the panel change only.

Lame fixes don't cut it. Particularly if we have to now figure some workaround to stupidity.

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Re: Preview Button!!!!

Hello!

In Camera Raw 8.3 I used the Preview button on each tab of correction (Basic, Curve, Effect, Lens Correction.... and others) very often it is important for me.

K3N1p6rg.jpg

I could look at result of concrete correction on each separate tab (Basic, Curve, Effect, Lens Correction.... and others). How I can return this function in Camera Raw 8.4?

I don't accept the new Preview function in Camera Raw 8.4. She doesn't allow to see change of settings on concrete correction (to Basic, Curve, Effect.... and others), I can see only the general changes.

Ashampoo_Snap_2014.04.12_10h22m03s_002_.png

I need that button!!! To work in ACR 8.4 without this Preview button very badly.

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