White balance "as shot" is wrong for a7iii profile

Hi,

I am having a hard time matching the white balance settings in camera raw to match the white balance used to make the shot with my a7iii (latest firmware).

Here are my original files (RAW + SOOC jpeg):

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1nFpZ1FT5POgq0gBSF_ynPjiJvZXdOtla

Here are the colors that I get when opening the RAW in the Sony Edit RAW editor without touching any sliders (i.e. white balance as shot):

(this is the colors that I shot with and this is what I would like to keep)

sony-raw-edit.JPG

Here is the same RAW file opened in the latest camera RAW (with the camera vivid profile):

adobe-camera-raw-a7iii-profile.jpg

It looks like the white balance white balance sliders are "saturated" (i.e. in the extremities) and cannot render the white balance properly.

I had set a custom white balance in camera, so I don't know if that was a probem...I hope not ?:

So, can anyone help me figure out to obtain the same white balance in camera raw as the white balance that I shot with ?

Thanks a lot for your help !

Philippe

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White balance "as shot" is wrong for a7iii profile

Hi,

I am having a hard time matching the white balance settings in camera raw to match the white balance used to make the shot with my a7iii (latest firmware).

Here are my original files (RAW + SOOC jpeg):

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1nFpZ1FT5POgq0gBSF_ynPjiJvZXdOtla

Here are the colors that I get when opening the RAW in the Sony Edit RAW editor without touching any sliders (i.e. white balance as shot):

(this is the colors that I shot with and this is what I would like to keep)

sony-raw-edit.JPG

Here is the same RAW file opened in the latest camera RAW (with the camera vivid profile):

adobe-camera-raw-a7iii-profile.jpg

It looks like the white balance white balance sliders are "saturated" (i.e. in the extremities) and cannot render the white balance properly.

I had set a custom white balance in camera, so I don't know if that was a probem...I hope not ?:

So, can anyone help me figure out to obtain the same white balance in camera raw as the white balance that I shot with ?

Thanks a lot for your help !

Philippe

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Correct Answer by elie_di
Correct Answer by elie_di

Philippe -

The problem is indeed caused by the custom WB that you set in the camera. I had a look at the file's Exif/Maker Notes where the setting is listed and I have to say that it is really extreme and crazy. Because LR is set to As Shot it is trying to use that data to set a comparable WB but just couldn't manage it and ran off the scale.

A WB is expressed as multipliers for each color channel, although the green channel is usually left unchanged (multiplier = 1) because the sensor is most sensitive to green light, while the red and the blue are boosted to bring them up into balance with the green. For instance, according to your Exif, Sony's preset WB for Daylight is

2380/1024/1668, which means R X 2.4, G X 1, B X 1.7, and the preset for Tungsten is 1472/1024/2920, R X 1.5, G X 1, B X 3. But the Custom WB set in the camera was 2060/1024/596. Blue was set to be reduced to 60%, not boosted. The stage lighting must have been almost entirely blue. The camera tried to handle it in its jpg (a little too much in my opinion, too yellow) but the data fed to LR was beyond its ability to cope.

13 Replies

Re: White balance "as shot" is wrong for a7iii profile

Adobe Community Professional, Apr 20, 2019

Hi Philippe,

Yes, saturated is a good word for what you're seeing.

If you look at your "Profile" for reasons that I have no idea why, you are using "Camera Vivid."

vivid.png

If you click on that 4 x 4 grid to the right of the words Camera Vivid, you see a slew of other Profiles (I decreased the size of the screenshot for ease sake):

The top group are favorites, I'll get back to that in a second. Then you have the Profiles for Adobe Raw which are followed by "Camera Matching." Here Adobe attempts to replicate the profiles used for your camera.

You'll not a star in the upper right corner of the tiles, these are set to be Favorites and will show up in the top group. If you mouse over each of these tiles you can see how the image will look with that profile. If you don't click, the profile will not stick.

If you open any JPGs, the Adobe raw and Camera Matching will not be there.

Please let us know if this helps you or not.

2019-04-20_10-01-07.png

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Re: White balance "as shot" is wrong for a7iii profile

Hi Gary,

Thanks for your answer, but  I already tried using different profile (even the camera matching ones), and the colors does not change that much (i.e. the profile does not affect that much the end result).

My question is simple: in theory, I should be able to move some WB sliders in Camera Raw to obtain the same colors as the result obtained with the Sony Edit application since the RAW is unprocessed, and all the information is there to play with.

BUT, for some reasons, I tried changing the WB sliders and I am unable to match the colors of the WB that I used to shoot.

Any idea why ?

Thanks

Philippe

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Re: White balance "as shot" is wrong for a7iii profile

Adobe Community Professional, Apr 20, 2019

Hi Philippe,

Just out of curiosity, why is your Temperature at 50000 and your Tint at -150? In the Sony image they are at 6000 and 0 respectively. What does the ACR image look like when they are brought to their "neutral" settings?

Were you changing the profiles with the Temp/Tint at those settings.

As far as just moving those slides to get the same image type, please remember that the appearance of colors change in lighter or darker regions plus how you use Vibrance or Saturation.

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Re: White balance "as shot" is wrong for a7iii profile

Hi Gary,

Excellent question: I did not touch the WB sliders, and the temperature and tint sliders are automatically set to 50000 and -150 when opening the file in ACR!

Here is the image when I set the WB sliders to their neutral position (6000/0) in ACR:

(pretty weird colors !)

adobe-camera-raw-neutral-wb.jpg

The strange slider values ("50000/-150") when opening the file makes me think that it looks like an ACR bug where the WB balance in the RAW file is out of range for ACR... Is that possible ?

What do you think ?

Thanks

Philippe

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Re: White balance "as shot" is wrong for a7iii profile

Adobe Community Professional, Apr 20, 2019

Hi Philippe,

Well your original image does show the sliders' "as shot" so I wonder if that's something that from your camera's settings. Also, since both sliders are maxed out, I wonder if the colorcast from the lights of that show were just too much for ACR to process.

Doesn't make sense to me either but the fact that they are maxed out does have my concern. How well do other images look, those taken out of doors with sunlight. Do they appear OK?

As I know you know, if you set your camera to shoot tungsten or fluorescent, the white balance is established for those temperatures and that will be imprinted for how the image is to be perceived. (One of the things I LOVE about raw is that if you set your camera to tungsten, then forget about it and go outside and shoot, you have purple images. But later, within ACR, you can set it for sunlight and you're good!).

So my next question is what did you have your camera's white balance set at? Oh, and did you take any gray card images at this concert?

Oh, one more: did you try "Auto" white balance in ACR? How far off is/was it?

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Re: White balance "as shot" is wrong for a7iii profile

Hi Gary,

I don't have this WB issue with other images taken outdoor with the same camera.

The difference with this image is that I used a gray card to define a custom WB preset in the camera (unfortunately, I don`t have a picture with the gray card, I only set the WB in the camera. I guess it is a lesson learned for me...)

The following WB settings were detected by the camera using the gray card :

Temp: 9900K

A-B:0; G-M:G7

sony-exif-info.jpg

So, my guess is that ACR does not know how to deal with "custom" Sony WB (by custom I mean, different from the typical ones like sunshine, cloudy, tungsten, etc.)

Here is a screenshot of ACR with WB set to "auto"... pretty bad

adobe-camera-raw-auto-wb.jpg

Bottom line, "In camera auto WB" did not work at the concert because there was a mix of different light sources. So I had to define my own custom WB.

So, I am very confused now. I am afraid that all my photos created with a custom WB are not workable inside ACR ?

Thanks again for your help

Philippe

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Re: White balance "as shot" is wrong for a7iii profile

Correct Answer by elie_di

Philippe -

The problem is indeed caused by the custom WB that you set in the camera. I had a look at the file's Exif/Maker Notes where the setting is listed and I have to say that it is really extreme and crazy. Because LR is set to As Shot it is trying to use that data to set a comparable WB but just couldn't manage it and ran off the scale.

A WB is expressed as multipliers for each color channel, although the green channel is usually left unchanged (multiplier = 1) because the sensor is most sensitive to green light, while the red and the blue are boosted to bring them up into balance with the green. For instance, according to your Exif, Sony's preset WB for Daylight is

2380/1024/1668, which means R X 2.4, G X 1, B X 1.7, and the preset for Tungsten is 1472/1024/2920, R X 1.5, G X 1, B X 3. But the Custom WB set in the camera was 2060/1024/596. Blue was set to be reduced to 60%, not boosted. The stage lighting must have been almost entirely blue. The camera tried to handle it in its jpg (a little too much in my opinion, too yellow) but the data fed to LR was beyond its ability to cope.

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Re: White balance "as shot" is wrong for a7iii profile

Hi Elie,

Thanks a lot for your answer.

Your technical detailed explanation makes a lot of sense, and yes, the light was mostly blue in front of the stage.

So, I am coming to the conclusion that I have no choice but to use the Sony Edit Application to develop the picture if I want the closest proper skin color. Is that correct ?

Questions for you :

1. Which sliders would you modify in ACR to obtain the proper skin tone? From your explanation, ACR will not give me any warm colors due to the WB settings, so I will not get what I want I guess...

2. What would you have done differently to handle that situation ?

Should I have shot with auto WB and take a picture of a color chart under that blue light and then use the WB picker in ACR ?

Would that have helped ACR in finding the proper white balance ?

Thanks again for your insight on how I should handle this situation (I guess I am not the only one in that situation shooting under strong blue light)

Philippe

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Re: White balance "as shot" is wrong for a7iii profile

Adobe Community Professional, Apr 20, 2019

Hi Philippe,

I'll gladly let Elie make suggestions on how to get ACR to where you want it to be.

However, IF you want natural colors, ESPECIALLY when your shooting in strange lighting, shooting a gray card, using a Passport Colorchecker (ColorChecker® Passport Photo; X-Rite ), or an ExpoDisk (https://www.expodisc.com/ ) is a must.

Since this shooting was in a heavy blue light, maybe "Let it be." ;>)

FWIW, I do not find that your Sony version all that natural looking. I think the ACR is "more" natural skin tone but not a healthy skin tone (just better).

If you can find something in any of your photos that you think is pretty close to gray, click on that with the white balance tool and see what happens. (I just tried and failed using his leather jacket.)

FWIW, I just was playing with the presets and "Artistic 7" shows promise as well as some of the "Vintage" presets. But I'll let your eyes be the final arbiter.

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Re: White balance "as shot" is wrong for a7iii profile

Hi Gary,

Thanks for your excellent tips. I will definitively look into the color checker.

I am eager to see what Elie will say also.

Thanks again for your time!

Phil

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Re: White balance "as shot" is wrong for a7iii profile

Hi again Gary,

Just to follow up on your proposition of using other profiles, and I was able to "save" some pictures by using the Vintage04 profile as suggested.

adobe-camera-raw-vintage04-tweaked.jpg

It's not what I wanted (too washed out), but a lot better than the "default maximized" ACR WB values.

Thanks again!

Philippe

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Re: White balance "as shot" is wrong for a7iii profile

I think this is what I would do. I like Sony's "Deep" profile.

I also smoothed out a bit the exposures and color on the jacket with local adjustments.

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Re: White balance "as shot" is wrong for a7iii profile

Thanks Elie for your suggestion!

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