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Why Creative Cloud for Europe is so expensive?

Participant ,
Apr 30, 2012

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Just curious why the price of Creative Cloud for Europe is 60% higer? Okay, maybe there are some taxes etc but World of Warcraft online game with the same business model charges pretty the same for subscription in US and Europe.

Looks like discrimination, yeah?

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Why Creative Cloud for Europe is so expensive?

Participant ,
Apr 30, 2012

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Just curious why the price of Creative Cloud for Europe is 60% higer? Okay, maybe there are some taxes etc but World of Warcraft online game with the same business model charges pretty the same for subscription in US and Europe.

Looks like discrimination, yeah?

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Adobe Employee ,
May 01, 2012

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Hi Yahor,

This is the info I have.
 
Adobe decides the price at which it sells its product on the Adobe Store.  A number of factors influence our regional pricing including local market conditions and the cost of doing business in that region.  Please note that resellers are free to decide at which price they sell Adobe products, which can be less than the price on the Adobe Store.
 
We establish our prices for Creative Suite products in U.S. dollars, Euros, Yen, British Pound and Australian dollars on a regional basis using a consistent methodology. Local market conditions significantly influence our pricing – these include the costs of doing business in different regions and customer research that assesses the value of the product in the local market.

We conduct the majority of our business through our retail and licensing channels. We depend on our retail partners in local markets to help us reach as many customers as possible, support those customers, and much more.

As stated, the cost of doing business in the rest of the world is higher than in North America. That higher cost is reflected in some of our pricing and would remain no matter how customers chose to purchase. For example, customers will still read about our products through local press to whom we reach out; they will meet local Adobe sales people who conduct seminars, participate in user groups, and visit large customers; and they will rely on support resources that Adobe makes available in these markets. All of these efforts impact the business costs of securing the sale, whether that sale is delivered online or in a box.

-Dave

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Explorer ,
May 02, 2012

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There is no retailing and no reselling with Creative Cloud. The cost of doing business in Europe is not 50% higher than doing the cost of doing business in North America. That is especially true for web-based businesses.

This strikes me as the key phrase in your reply "customer research that assesses the value of the product in the local market" - in other words, you charge whatever you think the market will bear. You've concluded that you can charge Europeans more for the same product, and they will purchase it anyway. If that's true it's simply because Europeans have become inured this kind of business practice on the part of large American and multinational companies.

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New Here ,
May 04, 2012

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Really, you might think that your customers are muppets, but its best not to say so quite so brazenly.

Users who are happy with US English should be able to buy at the US price, wherever they are.

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Community Beginner ,
May 06, 2012

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I'd buy a Creative Cloud subscription for Euro equivalent of the US price plus taxes any day now without thinking twice. But 61€ vs. $50? That's just shameless rip-off. And now you publicly admit that you're fleecing Europeans simply because you think you can - now, that's just low. No Creative Cloud for me, thank you very much.

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New Here ,
May 07, 2012

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Just like wdyp I was really excited by the new way of ordering the latest Adobe Suite and all of the benefits that the Cloud brings. However I shall not be doing so as in concert with the posters above I consider the pricing for the UK and Euro zone to be a rip off!!

To be glibly told that it is local forces and the costs of doing business here that accounts for the huge discrepancy makes my blood boil. This is an Internet based product and we are dealing directly with Adobe. No packaging or shipping or paying rents here. When I can pay (what I think is reasonable) ie the same as the quoted Dollar price then I shall gladly join up.

Until then I am sure there will be other avenues available in due course driven by the demand created by the unfair pricing structure.

I am very disappointed at the attitude of those who thought this would be acceptable and fair to charge such price variations across the globe for essentially the same virtual product.

I urge those at Adobe to rethink the strategy before it launches a whole slew of potential customers into the seedier side of software procurement. This is a chance to capture the next generation into a whole new way of thinking …… don't waste it.

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Community Beginner ,
May 07, 2012

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I agree on that, nethertheless it was always this way with Adobe when purchasing products online. At least you got it a little cheaper when purchasing from a distributor.

For Austria if you deduct the sales tax, it's still 25 % higher price (as Adobe seems to calculate 23 % tax at their prices). Not even sure if it's deducated at all if purchasing as company with European VAT. 

Didn't find such an option.

And for distributors, I checked out on those, they sell it "excluding tax" with 63 €, but you have to pay 12 months in advance.

This is really double the price. In respect of resellers, sure they can charge what they want, but not adobe with 25 % higher pricing for the same product.

Someone mentioned, let us get the english version. The 49,99 US$ Version is already multilanguage version according to this website, so no difference in the product itself. Just pricing.

I also urge Adobe to rethink this finally, as it's not the cost of selling it (Microsoft doesn't do that either and has the same higher costs in austria - which I doubt exist).

I can only agree, they sell it what they think the marked will pay. I stick with the old version (now since CS3... ) as I boycott such a behaviour, even I am missing all the new features.

First you are excited to see the new product, which I really think is great, but not like this old fashioned behaviour. 

Thanks

Patrick

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Community Beginner ,
May 09, 2012

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You cannot even purchase the U.S subscription from adobe store because it won't let you use an address outsite of america. This disparity in price is probably offset against american purchases effectively discounting for Americans at the expense of customers outside of America. This again shows that the creative monopoly that is Adobe unfairly weights competiveness towards American companies. It might be good in the long run and spur competitive products to emerge in Europe that can then become the creative standard.

I was really interested in subscribing to Creative Cloud but I am so angry at this discrimination that I am now not going to purchase and will be looking towards alternatives for my own use and will recommend these to my employers.

I think Adobe has done a good job at pushing away a loyal customer may it long continue.

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Contributor ,
May 09, 2012

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David,

Can you clarify what you mean by "use an address outside of America". Do you mean the IP address of the machine you are trying to register with? There are perfectly legal ways of using a US based IP address from outside of the US.

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Community Beginner ,
May 09, 2012

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When you purchase the subscription you need to use a credit card which needs an address for verification. The purchase page does not allow you enter an address that is not States based. The transaction would not verify without a valid address. Pretty clever though on Adobes part in restricting where people purchase their products from.

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New Here ,
May 11, 2012

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I do wonder how many legitimate licences Adobe would sell in Europe if their prices were closer to the North American offerings?

Perhaps the cost of doing business in Europe would be less if the prices were more affordable meaning Adobe sales staff didn't have to expense account so many dinners and drinks to try and persuade people to pay over the odds?

I had hoped Creative Cloud would signal a breakaway from the obscene disparity, given that there are no resellers or middle men taking a cut but Adobe obviously feel that if they can charge more they will. Shame on them for their short sighted, greed centric attitude.

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New Here ,
May 11, 2012

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This is unacceptable, and you know it. Nobody would rant if the price difference was in a reasonable range, but 50%? Are you serious?

It's actually kind of offending, honestly, since it's obvious that Adobe thought »They'll buy it«.

I really do hope someone would come up with a comparable product, just to bring some equilibrium into the market.

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Community Beginner ,
May 13, 2012

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I accept that there can be some price differences between various countries but if I but the download from your US site yours costs would be the same as if you werte selling it to a USA customer.

The UK upgrade to Photoshop CS extended is £444 inc. VAT or $715, the USA price is £248 or $399  this is a mark up of $316 £196. In Australia the cost is $670 a mask up of $271. In Europe the price is €477 or $616 a mark up of €168 or $217.

Adobe is being deliberately anti non American and their pricing could be seen as a deliberate policy to profiteer from non American customers.

Please think again you have time to redefine your pricing. It cannot cost $316 more to download from a UK site rather than a USA site. If so Adobe should seriously consider shutting down its UK operations as they are very inefficeint. As are their European and Australian operation.

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Engaged ,
May 13, 2012

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David__B wrote:

Please note that resellers are free to decide at which price they sell Adobe products, which can be less than the price on the Adobe Store.

That may well be so, but guess who decides what price the reseller BUYS the product from Adobe at. Yeah. Adobe.

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Community Beginner ,
May 14, 2012

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I totally agree with all the above. Adobe should reconsider their european pricing plan and they should appologize!

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Community Beginner ,
May 14, 2012

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The real question now seems to be how do we make Adobe take notice of the general dissastisfaction of their price structure? I've been reading that this has always been the case that Adobe is over priced outside of America put the rest of the development community at a dissadvantage to out american cousins. It seems that Adobe is happy to have everybody whinging becuase ultimately no action is mounted that can cause real damage to their bottom line profits.

Perhaps we should start a real campaign? Set up a facebook page let as many people know as possible highlighting the issue and flagging up alternative adobe products.

Heres a link to a paper on Price discimination http://www.coleurop.be/content/gclc/documents/GCLC%20WP%2007-05.pdf

There is also information about European action against price discimination http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_102_of_the_Treaty_on_the_Functioning_of_the_European_Union

Without action Adobe will still continue to fleece a premium from Europe.

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New Here ,
May 14, 2012

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A great idea David - is there anyone out there prepared to give a little time to set up a fb page and/or other means of rallying international consumer support? In Australia we are subjected to the same inequitable pricing as other non-US customers by Adobe and other US companies. While there isn't a viable alternative yet to the Adobe suite it will happen and I'll be treating Adobe with the same contempt it is showing its current international customers ...........

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Participant ,
May 14, 2012

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I can set up the Facebook page but we will need help with promotion, content, legal issues etc

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Community Beginner ,
May 16, 2012

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I'm one of the many Europeans fed up with Adobe's price policy.

No Creative Cloud subscription nor upgrade for any of my Adobe products until prices are fair in Europe.

Adobe already killed off Flash by their behaviour.

It seems the only way they learn something is the hard way.

So be it ...

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New Here ,
May 18, 2012

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"For example, customers will still read about our products through local press to whom we reach out; they will meet local Adobe sales people who conduct seminars, participate in user groups, and visit large customers; and they will rely on support resources that Adobe makes available in these markets. All of these efforts impact the business costs of securing the sale, whether that sale is delivered online or in a box."

BS. None of the costs mentioned apply to me as an individual customer who's been buying Adobe Software since the PageMaker era. It might be a shock but in the EU most speak english, know how to order software online and some even use a qwerty keyboard as its handy for shortcuts. Why on earth would Adobe try to reach us by local press or send a sales person to our door?

You are discrimination customers. I'm going to postphone my upgrades until Adobe comes with a pricing that's fair towards the EU. Since I would only use two or three software apps from the creative cloud anyway, I have all the time.

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Explorer ,
May 20, 2012

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"There is a very big difference with the past though : in the time of boxed or translated products, I accepted a higher price.

In this time of direct downloading the original English version, I don't."

Exactly my thoughts!

The explanation of funding promotional activities, seminars etc. through creative cloud subscriptions sounds very unfair. They could be made paid events, thus be paid by the professionals who actually attend or use such services.

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New Here ,
Jun 16, 2012

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This is corporate rubbish, you are ripping off European customers and hopefully they will revolt and refuse to buy. Greed is at the root of these decisions don't insult us further by waffle and lies. I think creative cloud looks like a great concept but I wont be made a fool of by paying over the odds.

Disgruntled non customer

Les Meldrum

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New Here ,
Jun 19, 2012

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I was about to sign-up for the Creative Cloud but no way I'm prepared to pay 60 Euros a month knowing you are offering the same product/service in the US for $50 which means that on average I'm paying $25 extra every single month for the exact same product. You can tell all the pretty stories that you want to justify that but we all know this is BS.  But that's ok, at the end of the day Adobe as a company can do what it wants but you'll be doing it without me a customer and hopefully Adobe one day will realize that treating customers fairly and respectfully is a cornerstone for future success. Of course, shareholders want profit now so that concept probably doesn't fit the corporate agenda.

Anyway, at least thank you for the opportunity to voice my opinion.

Kindest regards,

Hans

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Community Beginner ,
Jun 20, 2012

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Will adobe re-look at the European pricing in light of this announcement of increased profits for Q2 which "exceeded" their expectations.

http://www.adobe.com/aboutadobe/pressroom/pressreleases/201206/Q212Earnings.html

Instead of rubbing it into Europeans faces that they are making these profits, but choose to still rip us off 50% more than US customers.

"The initial transition to Creative Cloud exceeded our targets, demonstrating that creative professionals see significant value in the new subscription-based offering,”

Mark Garrett, executive vice president and CFO of Adobe.

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Contributor ,
Jun 20, 2012

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Missing from the article, I notice, was the regional breakdown, e.g. US v. EU.

I thought the key info was: "These targets reflect a weaker demand forecast in Europe."

No doubt they'll blame Greece rather than their own pricing policies.

Either way, I'm happy to report that I am in no way responsible for Adobe's increased Q2 profits.

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New Here ,
Jun 21, 2012

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Yes

And surely Greece is also responsible for the polical success of the Pirate Party in Germany...

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Community Beginner ,
Jun 21, 2012

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http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/06/20/adobe_cloud_europe_hit_income/

Poor things, how this could possibly happen... "It's not us charging them 50% more for the same downloads - it's the ECONOMIC CRISIS!!!".

My advice to Adobe: next time try charging EU folks 300% more - maybe that'll help...

They had a really great opportunity to actually INCREASE their legitimate user base and they blew it. Somehow I can't get myself to sympathize with them.

Message was edited by: Zbig T.

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Community Beginner ,
Jun 21, 2012

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Well - we were thrilled when we saw the new model (when the link of the news went to the US Pricing Site).
We discussed it into our company to go to the cloud with Adobe.

When we discovered the price difference, it was quite a shock, even we just need a couple of seets,

we decided against it and said, we will wait. If many european companies think the same, I am sure this tells,

why "poor European demand" exists.

Actually - we, luckily, don't feel the crisis in our company, so our decision to not take it was solely based on the higher price,

which the very very little hope, many do the same that Adobe sees, that what they are doing is not alright.

The sad thing is, which really gives me pain, that we most probably still have to get one licence for one workstation,

as we need some of the newer features and improvements.

But again - even we have to get a licence - we only get this one for the workstation, which we are really in need of.

But not for all of our computers (my preferred way to have same versions all over finally again, which we denied because of pricing).

I personally still stick on CS3 on mine, being years behind, as it's still good for me

The price difference upset me since I don't know, Adobe purchased Macromedia, or since ever?

So yeah, nothing new, but for sure cutting revenue (which I hope as it makes big company react).

Thanks for listening.

Patrick

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Adobe Community Professional ,
Jul 05, 2012

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Was just reponding to a similar post in another thread.

David's first reply was very much in the Adobe company line, that is often stated as follows.

"Our pricing methodology takes into consideration the costs of doing business in different regions and customer research that assesses the value of the product in the local market. Conditions vary between markets and it’s difficult to make a straight comparison between countries."

http://desktopmag.com.au/news/adobes-cs6-pricing-explanation/

There are many articles, blog posts and other discussions about the above where people don't really buy the 'cost of doing business' being so much higher, particularly with products in English (other languages have development and maintenance costs that could result in those products being more expensive).

In Australia, I have seen that the Creative Cloud price is significantly higher than the USA. However, the educational price for Creative Cloud is in line with the US price. In fact, with current exhange rates, it's slighly cheaper. So, taking the Adobe model of pricing to regions based on what they can bear, they have realised that education would not bear this inflated price.

Dean

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Community Beginner ,
Jul 11, 2012

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In the meantime, just set up a new adobe ID, with a different email address,and with an Billing address in USA. Then you can pay in USD. You will need to uninstall and re-download apps. Another grumpy customer BTW. Can't even buy in local currency and have to buy in overinflated AUD.

Only if you have an office in US of course ;-).

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Explorer ,
Jul 11, 2012

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Danr7 wrote:

In the meantime, just set up a new adobe ID, with a different email address,and with an Billing address in USA. Then you can pay in USD. You will need to uninstall and re-download apps. Another grumpy customer BTW. Can't even buy in local currency and have to buy in overinflated AUD.

Only if you have an office in US of course ;-).

It may be a bit more involved than that.  The current system is going to require an internet connection, and I am sure that when you would try to do what you are saying that the Adobe system is going to see that tthe purchasing location is not a U.S. location.

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Community Beginner ,
Jul 11, 2012

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urdaddi wrote:

It may be a bit more involved than that.  The current system is going to require an internet connection, and I am sure that when you would try to do what you are saying that the Adobe system is going to see that tthe purchasing location is not a U.S. location.

Nah, I don't think they're going to spy on your IP address location - that's not their business where is your TCP connection currently originating from. And even if they did, that's no problem using a proxy. The thing is the card you're using to pay has to have a US billing address and that's what they're verifying, from what I know.

But all of this aside, to me it boils down to one simple thing: if they don't want my money, they won't get it. I'm not going to "cheat" their system, I'm not going to be like "just take my money, pretty please, with a cherry on top". That'd be just humiliating. I don't want to feel like a fraudster just because I'm not willing to pay their European/Australian/Rest-of-the-World-tax and not buying their "higher cost of doing business" BS. Simple as that.

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New Here ,
Jul 22, 2012

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When is the Adobe going to answer all those questions here? Please do so.

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Adobe Community Professional ,
Jul 23, 2012

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jakubkrcmar2
>When is the Adobe going to answer all those questions here? Please do so.

An Adobe person has already given their stand. I also included a quote that reflects the Adobe position. It is not an argument many feel is substantial or even valid. However, it is what Adobe have decided upon and we're not going to get aything more at this time.

Dean

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New Here ,
Jul 24, 2012

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putting my money where my mouth is. I am not buying this until the US / Uk price disparity is fair.  Rip off Adobe lost another customer

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Adobe Community Professional ,
Jul 24, 2012

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Tekano_bob wrote:

putting my money where my mouth is. I am not buying this until the US / Uk price disparity is fair.

Define fair.

Adobe believes it's already fair and it won't changing any time soon.

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Community Beginner ,
Jul 24, 2012

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Fair = same price before taxes for US and the rest of the world for the English downloadable version.

I have no problem with the fact that Adobe thinks it's already fair as it is.

My bankaccount also thinks it's fair that my money stays put and does not flow any longer to Adobe, at least not for products where there is a significant difference in price.

I'm curious how many people are doing the same thing. Most people don't voice their feelings on a forum like this, but I hear some talking when I meet other Adobe users. It's quite obvious that Adobe is losing a lot of credit fast in Europe.

If Adobe is fine with that, no problem, at a certain point in time it will open the market for competition.

And meanwhile, they don't get my money.

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New Here ,
Jul 24, 2012

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Oh I would define FAIR somewhere in the region of

US$ 49.99 = 32.2266632 UK£

For a digital download that is, the additional costs for each copy are marginal, things like credit card processing fees, electricity & bandwidth, and a few other considerations keep each copy cost from truly falling to 0. but still it is not £173.52 extra per year that Adobe see fit to charge me because I am not an American. 

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Adobe Community Professional ,
Jul 24, 2012

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Patrick WOU wrote:

Fair = same price before taxes for US and the rest of the world for the English downloadable version.

That's one definition (with which I agree but, apparently Adobe remains unmoved).

The downside is that you cannot use the CS6 products.

Have you found alternatives?

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Community Beginner ,
Jul 24, 2012

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> The downside is that you cannot use the CS6 products.

> Have you found alternatives?

Yes, the version I already have, CS 5.5.

Most of us don't need the latest versions.

We are brainwashed by software companies to think we need all the latest stuff to succesfully do our jobs or hobbies and I'm ready to play that game with them when treated fairly.

This is not the case with Adobe on this moment, thus I play my own game now.

The day that CS 5.5 really shows it's age and the situation did not change yet, that's the day I'm going to look for alternatives at other companies.

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Community Beginner ,
Jul 28, 2012

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I'd just like to say that I was surprised a little bit by the price hike but ya know what?  I don't mind all that much.

Let me put it this way you pay less than £600 per year for the whole collection.  Something that would cost you thousands to buy outright and a few hundred to upgrade each year.  Some people have mentioned they have CS3, seeing as that was launched in 2007, using my awesome maths (totally not awesome or researched in anyway) you would have only started to make the saving under the clouds pricing structure after five years.  BUT you are still on a 5 year old version and it will cost you some more to upgrade.  So in that sense even for its UK price, it still makes perfect sense to buy the product.  (This is of course if you haven't pirated the software, and seeing as the statistics say approx. 30% of all adobe software is pirated, someone on this thread isn't being honest at a guess).

You get 2 installs to use, one for home (freelance in my case) and another for work, so being a Creative Cloud member immediately makes you more employable as a designer.  Hell I'm even gonna charge my workplace extra on my invoices if they want me to use my license for them, so I can offset the price difference that way.

Quite frankly, if you can't earn £50pcm using the creative suite then why are you even considering getting the software?

The only thing that discovering that it isn't $49.99 for me as a UK customer has made me do is delay my purchase of the software while I wait 1 week until I get my next paycheque.  Yes it's annoying that it's more expensive here, but so is petrol, house prices, food and pretty much everything!  Oh yeah and the average UK salary is higher than the US.  It's all relative.

Personally I can't wait to get my hands on all this software!

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Community Beginner ,
Jul 28, 2012

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If I understand you correct:

You are a freelancer. So you would also charge US companies a lower hourly rate than companies within the UK for the same work?

I am sure most could even afford a 5 times higher rate for the subscription and still make profit.

But this is not the discussion about if you can afford it or not. It's the discussion if you, as non US Company, want to

help Adobe to make more and more profit at costs of your own company.

Main problem is lacking alternatives, which is always bad for customers.

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Community Beginner ,
Jul 28, 2012

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@DA-Design :

1. Are you paid by Adobe or an employee ?

2. Read the title of the discussion : it's about the difference in price between Europe and the US, not about the Creative Cloud being a better deal than the buy-option

3. People who pirate Adobe software will not appear on this thread : why would they. They couldn't care less about the price difference. But I guess that after seeing the difference in pricing, some people who are paying might shift to that group. I'm not, but that's me and I have a feeling that I'm becoming more and more an exception.

4. What makes you think that all people use Adobe software to make money : ever heard about the enormous amount of amateurs that do something with images, movies or websites these days ?

5. The fact that petrol or house prices are more or less expensive in Europe has nothing to do with this. I'm not going to explain something that obvious, since that would insult my and your intelligence.

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Community Beginner ,
Jul 28, 2012

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Nah I wouldn't charge them a lower hourly rate, but thats because I'm working under UK conditions, and paying UK costs.  If I were to go on a visa to the US for some reason where my costs are lower then it wouldn't be too difficult to lower my rate accordingly.  My rate is decided by the market I'm competing in.  Also, if they charged 5x the subscription rate then you would just buy the Master Collection instead.

Yes I understand that it's a digital product and in the age of the internet that means country's borders don't come into play.  But by that same notion, why should I as a UK customer, earn more in relation to a US customer?  If I pay the same as a US customer, but I charge UK prices, which are higher, I would make more profit.  Then the shoe would be on the other foot with US customers saying they aren't making as much money from the software as UK customers and that is discrimination in pricing too.

Anyway, I'm not here to argue, I'm just pointing out that it's not as bad as you think.  It costs a UK user more to subscribe, but a UK user should also make more money on average from the product by the fact they live in a high cost market.  In the end, the more of you that don't buy the software the better, as it lowers my competition.  I remember seeing a comment earlier on a news item to do with creative cloud that went along the lines of:

"Great, now anyone can be a designer "

It should have an addition of "unless you live in the UK because theyre too cheap to realise how good a deal this is".  Software that I could only use at university or at work because I couldn't afford it I can now use at home (instead of GIMP and InkScape).  I'm genuinely starting to think most nay-sayers are on pirated copies, because that's the only reason why someone would be angry at such a low cost.  After all, wasn't someone saying Adobe Creative Suite was more expensive in the EU anyway before creative cloud in this very thread?

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Community Beginner ,
Jul 28, 2012

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Seeing as you posted this before I'm going out Ill give you your answers:

1. No, don't be silly.  The fact that that was your first thought above all others says a lot really.

2. Maybe so, I came here because I wanted to see if there was a way to pay the US price (I'm self-employed, so I'll always try to save money where I can)

3. Again maybe so, they would be on this thread to maybe find out if they could get a non-pirated version finally?  The point of this price difference actively making people get illegal copies is a bit silly too quite frankly.  If someone was of that disposition they probably weren't going to pay the £32 or whatever the exchange rate comes to anyway.

4. If you don't intend to use an industry standard software to make money then what exactly is wrong with the open source software?  You can do many things for the web using open source software.  I've been making money from GIMP and InkScape for 3 years since I left university, because I know how to use them effectively.

5. Yes I know what you're getting at there.  My point was merely that the UK is a more expensive place to live, while most of those extra costs are down to government tax rather than foreign countries seeing the UK as a cash cow, it still stands to reason that any business operating outside of the UK is going to use what the UK consumer expects to pay for any product or service, which is noticeably higher than the US.  Why shouldn't someone make as much money as they can?  Whether it's an individual or a company?

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Community Beginner ,
Jul 28, 2012

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@DA-Design :

3. There are different types of software pirates : the hardcore ones, which always pirate no matter the price and the ones that pirate when they feel that they are not treated fairly. The first group is hopeless, the last group is the one that shifts depending of the strategy of the sector or company.

4. Exactly my point. Why should I give money to Adobe when I can get free products. I bought their products since I liked their products. I accepted the extra price because of the extra cost for getting the boxes to Europe and the translation. I'm no longer accepting that difference since we are now in a cloud world and downloading exactly the same product from the same servers.

5. Adobe can try to make as much money as they want to. I'm voicing that I'm not cooperating anymore because of the difference in price. That's interesting information for Adobe to know. If they don't change their strategy, that's fine for me. If enough people do, they might even change their strategy.

And by this, I rest my case.

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New Here ,
Jul 28, 2012

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I was excited about creative cloud at first and thought "I could live with those prices for some short term jobs, finally something I could afford" ...until I saw the European pricing. Next though was "what a joke, 'alternatives' it is then".

So here's one who would be willing to pay a reasonable price, but seeing as I would be getting screwed over, not a chance.

Adobe is, of course, free to put whatever pricing they want for their products, but they should know they're pushing people to alternative solutions due to unfair pricing (our salaries are less than US and living costs are higher). I just recently had a discussion with a handful of colleagues, and most of them said they would have bought PS if they could get the US pricing. None of them use PS now (we all use alternative solutions). Anecdotal evidence, I know, but this wasn't the first group who have said the same thing, and probably will not be the last.

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New Here ,
Aug 25, 2012

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I'd like to know which alternatives are you using?

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New Here ,
Aug 25, 2012

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GIMP mostly.

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New Here ,
Aug 25, 2012

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Lol, man you really think I'm that stupid? "Cost of selling bla bla" I buy online, pay online, no cost ****WHATSOEVER****. NONE. You can't go lower in sales costs than ME, DOING ALL THE WORK. From marketing to the act of purchase. Now I want you to elaborate for me again, what was it that makes me more expensive customer?

ADOBE IS PEEING IN MY BOWL OF CEREAL AND YOU WATCH IF I TAKE IT LIGHTLY.

Lame excuses won't do; I have been offended by hinting that I'm a retard and don't know the exchange rates of currencies and propably won't notice. Come on! Discrimination? Definately. Bold, greedy, discrimination.

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New Here ,
Aug 25, 2012

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Oh yeah and BTW where is the Adobe staff reply? This is how much they care to do business? Oh yeah, forgot they're pretty faceless when it's about their monopoly but when it's their freaking seminar the tweets are like I'm getting them from my best friends.

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New Here ,
Aug 25, 2012

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@DA-Design

A bit of a stockholm syndrome there or what the heck is wrong with you? It's internet nowdays, it's not like Rufus Deuchler is gonna walk to my door and hand my copy to me. As euro user I expect to pay more? DO I? YOU REALLY THINK SO?

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Community Beginner ,
Aug 26, 2012

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@JSalmela

My understanding of David__B's vague attempts at explaining and rationalizing his employer's practices was not so much that the costs of doing buisness in Europe (allowing you to download a file) is higher for Adobe. If I got him right, they actually have the audacity to suggest that the cost of doing business in Europe in general is higher for you than than for the folks in the US of A and therefore you should have already gotten used to being ripped of and happily hand your "European-tax" over to the behemoth. That's how I got this which, needless to say, only makes it worse and sadder.

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Community Beginner ,
Aug 26, 2012

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There are other costs of doing business in the European Union other than just the cost of translation and the shipping cost to get a bunch of plastic discs over there. To act like downloadable delivery suddenly makes those other costs go away isn't going to make it so.

Adobe is a US company. That means the cost of doing business here is already rolled

into every product they sell everywhere in the world. When they choose to serve another market, they'll need to recoup the costs of doing business there as well.

There are taxes to be paid, support personnel to be paid, infrastructure for downloadable content to be built. All that stuff isn't free. They could skimp on it, but then you'd be on here shouting at them for crappy support or the fact that it takes 24 hours to download CS6.

The truth is, the price is what it is and the best way to fight it isn't complaining on here, it's to not buy the product. I'm guessing the number who consider CC reasonable even at the EU price number far greater than the vocal minority on here. While that sucks if you don't agree, the market will speak and that's what Adobe will listen to.

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Community Beginner ,
Aug 26, 2012

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jbregar wrote:

There are other costs of doing business in the European Union other than just the cost of translation and the shipping cost to get a bunch of plastic discs over there. To act like downloadable delivery suddenly makes those other costs go away isn't going to make it so.

Adobe is a US company. That means the cost of doing business here is already rolled

into every product they sell everywhere in the world. When they choose to serve another market, they'll need to recoup the costs of doing business there as well.

There are taxes to be paid, support personnel to be paid, infrastructure for downloadable content to be built. All that stuff isn't free. They could skimp on it, but then you'd be on here shouting at them for crappy support or the fact that it takes 24 hours to download CS6.

  1. What taxes exactly are there for Adobe to pay? I'm really curious, please enlighten me (no, really).
  2. I'm perfectly fine with English-speaking support, thank you.
  3. The infrastructure is provided by Amazon, Akamai and possibly other major content-providing players. There are no Adobe guys being sent by plane with servers to deploy: one under the Eiffel's tower, another by the Brandenburg Gate, etc., you know? And here's the kicker: internet packets actually do cross and don't really care about country boundaries! Who knew?! I've just done a quick geo-lookup against two IPs my Adobe Application Manager connects to. One is from Washington, another one from Massachusetts. Those were both US states last time I checked. But don't be sad - this whole internet thing got me confused too at first.

jbregar wrote:

The truth is, the price is what it is and the best way to fight it isn't complaining on here, it's to not buy the product. I'm guessing the number who consider CC reasonable even at the EU price number far greater than the vocal minority on here. While that sucks if you don't agree, the market will speak and that's what Adobe will listen to.

And guess what, I'm doing exactly that - not buying the product. And your point is? "It sucks that I don't agree"? Did I hurt your personal feelings? What is the real point for your... ekhm... "contribution"?

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New Here ,
Oct 17, 2012

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I totally agree with the sentiment voiced here...I too was going to get Creative Cloud but the rip-off between what we pay in the UK compared with the USA price told me one thing and one thing only;  "Adobe's attitude to their non-USA customers sucks."

I decided against being ripped-off - I hope you continue to be successful in the USA (ONLY).

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Community Beginner ,
Oct 23, 2012

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Had to come back after seeing some of the nonsense sitting in my inbox (i finally decided to open them up and see after several months).

Ok, let me just start by saying I have Adobe Creative Cloud and am extremely happy with it!

Now then let's address some points shall we?

Price difference.  This isn't so much to do with currency exchange rather than the power of a currency in its OWN country.  I tried to explain this before, and granted there is an element of Adobe adding extra to make some more profit but I don't see anything wrong with that, as long as it isn't ludicrous which in my opinion, it isn't.  Just because Adobe operates as a multinational company doesn't mean all of its consumers are only operating within their own countries.  If I was to get an American customer, my prices would seem outlandishly high to them due to the cost of living in the UK being higher, this is a natural thing occuring.  Now while in reverse, I should technically get the software cheaper, Adobe doesn't operate exclusively from the US, they have offices and employees in a lot of countries, the UK being one of them and those overheads have to be accounted for.  How Adobe goes about doing this is beyond me but it may go someway to alleviating the rage flying around at the moment.

Other Software.  There is plenty of Open Source software out there to get you started if you think that this is too expensive for you to buy.  I've used Gimp & InkScape for a number of years and they were able to do the job, though it took a bit more nouse than using Adobe Software, but you get what you pay for really.

I could go on and I may come back to add more points to this proverbial Hornet's nest, but as of right now I have to get back to work

In conclusion though,  moaning about how expensive Creative Cloud is when it costs a tiny fraction of the only other option Creative Suite stinks of hypocracy.  You're all here because you have used Adobe Software in the past or even currently, you've posted on this forum because you actually really want Creative Cloud but are not sure whether to invest or not.  You moan about the price difference between the US and Europe because you're looking for an excuse that blame's someone other than yourself for not taking a step further in your design career.

Seriously, it's that obvious!  No one posts an angry comment about a product unless they either want to buy it and can't, or have bought it and were unsatisfied.

As a final note, I've made nearly £500 from using Creative Cloud since I bought it 2-3 months back.  Not enough to pay the bills by itself but considering I have a full-time designer job on top of that it's some of the easiest money I've ever made.  Thanks Adobe!

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New Here ,
Oct 23, 2012

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DA-Design wrote:

Seriously, it's that obvious!  No one posts an angry comment about a product unless they either want to buy it and can't, or have bought it and were unsatisfied.

No, it's not that obvious and I think you're missing the point.  It's a matter of principle...

I am a wealthy software consultant.  The cost of Creative Cloud is small fry to me, especially since I could charge it to my company and hence it's tax deductable.  I was about to subscribe to Creative Cloud but as soon as I logged in the price went from $50 to £47 - it was blatantly obvious I was being asked to pay more in the UK for *exactly* the same product as the USA customers. 

In the past companies have been able to do that because of shipping charges etc. but (thankfully) with online products (such as cloud based products) it's more obvious when a company is just charging you more because they feel they can.

If you think the limited infrastructure necessary to provide Creative Cloud in the UK is 50% more than it is in the USA then you're living in your own Cloud Cuckoo-Land.

So that then leave your other "explanation" as to why Adobe can charge the inflated price to European customers - apparently we can afford it?  The average income in the UK is actually lower than the USA average income.  If the cost of living in Europe is more expensive than the USA it is only because we allow companies like Adobe to rip us off.

I've recently subscribed to an online training site.  The USA customer charge was $299 per year.  The UK customer charge was, also, $299.  Not all companies charge what they feel they can get away with.

You're a professional designer hence it makes perfect financial sense to you, because a) you have to have the product and b) it's still cheaper than buying the full product and c) you earn money from using it (as you've stated) hence it's a no-brainer for you.

For those of us who are not professional designers being ripped-off is an issue and we chose to find alternatives.

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New Here ,
Oct 23, 2012

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Well I guess DA-Design can add thoughtless arrogance to his design skills! He entirely misses (chooses to miss?) the point that most European subscribers need no European based support, they are happy to pay in US Dollars and deal exclusively with the US vendor for support and updates. This is the way many early adopters organised their purchases before vendors opened overseas offices and added layers of management. The cost of doing Internet business differs little no matter where the supplier and customer are located, with the exception of VAT/Sales tax, which can be a moot point.

I deal with Cisco in the US, I deal with SAP in Germany, why should I have to deal with Adobe in Britain? What does Britain bring to the party apart from additional cost? A few seminars that I can watch online? If I pay for the Cloud subscription with a US issued card, then I pay US prices (I might have to use a US proxy, but if you are involved enough in this business to need Adobe product then you'll know all about that).

DA-Design's final rant about looking for excuses rather than blaming one self for not taking one's design career further, makes no sense and is an arrogant assumption on his part.

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Community Beginner ,
Oct 23, 2012

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You all realize you can just not buy the product, right? Maybe if you're REALLY pissed off, you could email or call someone at Adobe who is actually in charge of pricing this stuff and express your displeasure.

The bottom line is Adobe charges more for Creative Cloud in Europe than they do in the United States. Mercedes charges more for their cars in the United States than they do Germany (last time I checked). Price discrimination across borders has always and will always occur. Microsoft charges more for Windows in the US than they do in a third-world country too. This isn't an Adobe issue alone.

If I felt ripped off by Merc's or Microsoft's or Adobes policies here in the US or anywhere else, I'd simply not buy the product (if it was non-essential to my business and/or out of my price range). If the product was essential to my business, I'd purchase it as a business expense as long as it was financially-feasible. If my business margins are so thin that I can't afford the extra mark up then maybe I should not be in business.

Unleashing my wrath on the subscribers to this thread (it emails everyone who's replied here every time you reply unless they unsubscribe) is both completely ineffective, it's kind of rude. I'm guessing with the ranty tone of this thread, Adobe's long-since put it in the ignore bin.

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New Here ,
Oct 23, 2012

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So —let me get this straight— anyone who has the temerity to think the current pricing structure is unreasonable should just STFU so people who can't figure out the "Stop email notifications" link can have a cleaner inbox?

If I think Adobe's UK pricing is unreasonable and I'd like to let Adobe know about my opinion, where would you suggest I say this so your delicate sensibilities are not offended? Adding my support to a prominent thread on their discussion forums may not be ideal, but probably carries a little more weight than a personal email to some anonymous support bod. Customer opinion may often be ignored, but it is sometimes taken into account - it can be a worthwhile exercise.

I also have Creative Cloud and I'm happy with it. I can also afford it in my business overhead. None of which is at all relevant to whether I think the UK markup is reasonable or not. I could afford it and be happy with the product if the markup was 5 times as much - the specific price is not the point. The point is the difference between regional prices is markedly larger than any economic considerations would explain and it seems like they're taking the piss.

If you have no problem with being shafted based on your region then fine, don't subscribe to this thread.

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Community Beginner ,
Oct 23, 2012

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Do you honestly think that the people responsible for Adobe's worldwide pricing strategy are monitoring this thread?

Because if you do, I have a bridge to sell you...

Try emailing Adobe... or hitting them up on Twitter, or calling your local TV station or newspaper.

All of which are FAR more likely to have an effect than continuing to rant on a thread (that's effectively become an echo chamber) in an obscure section of the Adobe support website about how unfair it all is.

Or you can just continue to rant and rave at a bunch of people who happen to agree with you that Adobe's worldwide pricing isn't fair.

Your call.

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New Here ,
Oct 23, 2012

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In this case, not particularly.

However, customer concern raised in forums can have an impact. Had this thread blown up, been linked to from prominent news sources, etc. there's a chance it could act as some form of leverage. You don't know until you try, and there's no harm in it.

How do you go about trying to raise an issue, change opinion, etc? Sit around quietly moaning to yourself?

For many people voting with your feet is not an option - the alternative software available is irrelevent if all my clients expect Adobe compatibility in what I deliver. I need to own it, I dislike the pricing structure, I've voicing that and I don't see why that would be a problem for someone who apparently doesn't care?

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New Here ,
Oct 23, 2012

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And also, which is more pointless - adding your weight to a thread you agree with on the offchance it might pay off, or going out of your way to write a ranty comment that misses the point on a thread you'd rather ignore instead of just unsusbscribing?

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Community Beginner ,
Oct 23, 2012

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Yes, and my point is that this thread hasn't "blown up" which indicates that while there's a vocal tiny minority that think Adobe is trying to rip them off by offering them Master Collection in a subscription model for pennies on the dollar (or Euro) vs. buying the boxed product.

Is it more expensive than in the US? Yes.

Does that suck if you're not in the US? Yes.

On the other hand, I'd like universal healthcare, but I don't get that either because I live in the US.

I'd also like to pay German prices for VWs, BMWs, Audis and Mercedes cars, but I can't.

Price discrimination by region is as old as prices themselves and definitely predates downloadable software. Like I said, Microsoft does it in reverse for Windows/Office. People in the US pay FAR more than people in the Phillipines or China for example. Same with Hollywood and DVDs/BluRays. They're cheaper in certain regions. That's the whole reason the "region code" was added to the DVD spec.

The fact is that prior to CC, Master Collection cost 2700 Euro. Creative Cloud is 61 Euro per month. So, for 732 Euro per year, you have CS6 MC. Seems like it's still a WAY better deal than the boxed product.

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Community Beginner ,
Oct 23, 2012

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Thanks for a well versed counter argument, shame no one else can do that.

"You're a professional designer hence it makes perfect financial sense to you, because a) you have to have the product and b) it's still cheaper than buying the full product and c) you earn money from using it (as you've stated) hence it's a no-brainer for you.

For those of us who are not professional designers being ripped-off is an issue and we chose to find alternatives."

That last line is the one I want to focus on in particular, it is pretty much the whole point of what I was saying a few months ago.

Why (Oh why?) is a non-professional designer even considering Adobe software?  It would be like me being a non-music buff or editor in the slightest, looking at Cuebase then getting all worked up because I can't afford it.  It genuinely boggles the mind!

If you aren't a professional designer, getting Adobe software has to be one of the stupidest moves someone can make financially.  It's like me buying a Formula 1 car to do the run to the shops, completely over the top for what I need.

Now can you all just take a step back at look at this from the other side?  Those of us who use this software day in day out, hour after hour, year after year:

As you all know Adobe software is pretty expensive, regardless of the package or product.  For most of us becoming designers, we had to learn to use the software before we even got close to buying any of it.  This took 3 years effectively (for a BA) and we learnt many of the Creative Suite programs and focused on a few really in-depth (Photoshop, Illustrator, InDesign and After Effects in my case).  During this time I had to go into university to do my work outside of my lectures because I couldn't even afford a student copy of the software at the time, thankfully the computer labs had the full suite loaded onto nearly 100 machines.

Now bear in mind it took 3 years to learn 4 of the programs to a truly professional level, to be able to use them efficiently and for a myriad of tasks.  One day I might be making business cards for a client, another day I'll be making a video advertising a company's product/service.  My only option software-wise is Adobe at this point, not purely because it's all I was taught, but compatibility is a problem removed (mostly) when you're importing and exporting stuff from one program to another as they're all made by the same company.  (I'm sure most of you have had the joy of trying to get something made in MS Office to open right in OpenOffice?)

Now you may think I've digressed, but here comes the absolute kicker.  When I graduated, what software could I use?  I was fresh out of uni so having no money, I couldn't afford to buy anything Adobe.  Instead I went straight into work, and I found time after time the following situation:

The company you worked for either a) had only a few CS programs, usually Photoshop and Dreamweaver or some other combination.  (The place I'm working at atm only has Photoshop, Illustrator and InDesign) or b) has a pirated version of the full CS Suite (I've worked for 2 big companies that have done this, both of which I reported).  So you get caught between not having the software you want, or being an accomplice to a pretty serious crime.  Creative cloud gets rid of both of those problems for me.

Now, I've always wanted to go freelance, and I have actually gone freelance in the last few years after experience in professional businesses taught me what I needed to be able to do.  My problem was still not being able to afford any of the software, together or even indivdually, it's a massive investment to make even for someone like me, and when you're freelance, you never have the guarantee of money coming in.  So I used InkScape, and was able to use it at a professional and production level.

So now after 4 years of being a freelance designer, I can actually afford to buy the industry standard software, not because I'm raking the money in, but because Adobe have finally made it affordable.  This means I can now compete with the large design studios because I know have all the tools I could possibly ever need.  My first advertisement is going out in the next week or 2 now I have this security to be able to perform any task once again.

If creative cloud had been envisioned when I first went to university, I could in theory be 4 years ahead with my business.  I'd have bought it as a 19 year old with only a part time job because it made so much sense for me.  I'd have been able to work freelance the moment I stepped out of the door.

Now if you've actually bothered to read all of my short story rather than just scroll to the end, do you understand what I am getting at?

YES it is more expensive than in the USA

NO, it is stupid to reject creative cloud based on its price, when its price is so much lower than that of any alternative, when its price for an entire year is less than buying a single program outright.

And just for one final flog of the dead horse.  Why are you even considering buying creative cloud if £50/month is too much?  Were you happy with paying £2500 for the creative suite instead and upgrading for a few hundred more each year?  Were you happy with just buying photoshop despite the price of that being £100 more than creative cloud is for a year?

Is ~£10/month difference something to get worked up about?

Oh some personalised responses for people:

jbregar:  Thank you for actually having some common sense

CanDoSandhu:  May I ask why you were considering creative cloud, despite not needing it for your profession? (I ask because I may be able to help find you an alternative)

RobinSTC:  Yeah I actually considered buying by proxy originally, until I realised 5 seconds later how stupid an idea that actually is.  In order for it to work you would effectively need to commit fraud.  Also, may I ask you why you were considering Creative Cloud too if not for your profession? (Again, I ask because I may be able to help find you an alternative, also it would help me figure out why I'm talking to non-designers about all of this lol).

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New Here ,
Oct 23, 2012

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I don't know why you repeatedly feel the need to point out that price differences exist between different markets? It's not like that's news to anyone. Adobe's official response is that the cost of business explains the discrepancy - that seems to most people like bull, and somewhat irrelevant for a software service.

If you wanted to get yourself an Audi at German prices and posted in an Audi forum that you felt their US pricing was unreasonabe I just can't figure out a scenario where I'd go out of my way to write you a response telling you obvious facts about economics and that Audi can do what they like. It just boggles my mind - it's up there in the top right corner, the words are "Stop email notifications" … all you have to do is click the link. It's really not that difficult.

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Community Beginner ,
Oct 23, 2012

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the_wookie wrote:

I don't know why you repeatedly feel the need to point out that price differences exist between different markets? It's not like that's news to anyone.

And yet here you are, complaining about the price difference between the 2 different markets...

Lol, just...lol...

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New Here ,
Oct 23, 2012

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Duh!

Acknowledging that there are price differences, and questioning whether a particular price difference is justifiable are different things. Maybe that's the point you're missing?

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Community Beginner ,
Oct 23, 2012

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In order to question a particular price difference first requires acknowledgement that there is a price difference to begin with, they aren't mutually exclusive.  Each time you complain about the price difference you are "...repeatedly pointing out that price differences exist between markets"

Now while I'm not complaining about you complaining about the price difference,  I am pointing out though that your previous post had just a teeny weeny little bit of hypocracy in it.  That's all

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New Here ,
Oct 23, 2012

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Heh. Funny. But no, I don't see where the hipocracy is?

— The complaint is over the extent of the price difference between markets.

— The unspoken assumption is that everyone is aware prices differ between markets. (Is there anyone who isn't aware of this?)

— Someone points out that price differences exist between markets and therefore everything is fine, quit whinging.

— It's pointed out that, yeah, we're not idiots. It's not the existance of price differences that's disliked, it's the extent of the difference and, later, the dubious attmepts at justification for the differences.

— therefore hipocracy.

WTF?

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