Changing Document Create Date and Time in Properties/Metadata

[sailorman01]

Hi there

I am pursuing a legal case, where I need to demonstate that someone has forged a contract in a PDF. 

The creation date is listed as 6/6/2021 12:00:00. This very precise time stamp raised a red flag with my fraud team. I am looking to create a similair document with the same time stamp, just to show it can be done, The month/date is easy, by changing the timings on my PC. Getting the time correct is trickier. 

Does anyone have any thoughts? 

Many thanks

[Bernd Alheit]

At Windows you can change date and time.

[sailorman01]

Bernd

Thanks you for the reply. 

You are correct to say you can change thate date in Windows very easily, but the time clearly keeps changing. Creating a property where the time says 12:00:00 is more difficult. That is what I am trying to do. 

I need to match the time to show it is possible to forge a document. 

Any thoughts anyone? 

Many thanks'

[Bernd Alheit]

You can set the exact time with a utility under Windows. It is also possible to change the metadata in the PDF file.

[Test Screen Name]

Acrobat has no feature to change these dates, but it is trivially easy. I will not cover how. You cannot rely on these dates for anything legally binding. That's what digital signatures, based on purchased certificates, are for.

Also, you might find some PDF creation apps don't set an accurate time, or set it to 12:00. The (untrustworthy) document info will show what app (claims to have) made it.

[sailorman01]

Thank you for suggesting digital signatures - that is very useful for my case

Can someone point me in the direction of how to change that date time information? I susepoct it is straightforward! 

Thanks for the ideas - this is very helpful. 

Many thanks

[try67]

Any PDF library worth its salt can do it, but you will not get more instructions on that here (at least not publicly), as we don't wish to make it easier for those who want to fake it. However, if the creation time of the file is exactly 12:00:00 that's a pretty strong indication that it was set programmatically, as the chances of it happening exactly on midday (down to the second) organically are very small.

[Lindsay34958310x1sg]

How are the chances of the time being 12:00:00 any different than it being 12:00:01? The chances are no different. The chances are in fact exactly the same. The chances of it happening at 11:11:11 organically are also small, or 12:01:32 are also very small....but again all the exact same chances. So to say that you believe its fraud based on the time alone is actually ridiculous. Its just like saying "I believe this document was fraudulantly altered because the time stamp says 1:03:27". All times in a 24 hour period are only guaranteed to happen once....no more no less...exactly once. 

[Test Screen Name]

There's a world of difference between us telling you that information is easily faked, and us posting - here in a public forum - how to fake information. I won't do it, and I would hope Adobe would remove anyone who does give details. This is inappropriate.

[sailorman01]

Hi all

I thought would drop a line to everyone to conclude the discussions. 

The background is that I am standing between 1 guy who wants to defraud some hard working people of $10,000, hence my enthusiasm for an answer. 

I recognize my enquiry was unorthodox, but with time pressure, I wanted something to work with. 

That said, actiually I got the answer I needed, rather than wanted.The basic facts I presented highlight obvious fraud, and you confirmed that, so thank you very much. 

Please enjoy the resot of your day. 

Your help is hugely appreciated. 

Best wishes all. 

[Lindsay34958310x1sg]

I hope you arent an attorney and I really hope that the time stamp alone didnt sway a judge to find this person guilty of fraud. Because like I just said in another response "How are the chances of the time being 12:00:00 any different than it being 12:00:01? The chances are no different. The chances are in fact exactly the same. The chances of it happening at 11:11:11 organically are also small, or 12:01:32 are also very small....but again all the exact same chances. So to say that you believe its fraud based on the time alone is actually ridiculous. Its just like saying "I believe this document was fraudulantly altered because the time stamp says 1:03:27". All times in a 24 hour period are only guaranteed to happen once....no more no less...exactly once" 

I dont know any details of the case you are referring to, but I do know that determining someones guilt by a timestamp, that has exactly equal chances of occuring as any other time in a 24 hour period......is pretty unfair if you ask me.