Honest Question: Purpose of the Order View?

[yn]

From my relatively little experience in the 508 world, most of my conversations that involve the Order panel go something like this:

"So once you've exported the file to PDF, open your Tag tree and look for issues such as...."

"But what about the Order view? I noticed some page items are OUT of order! Or even a table is completely missing from a page?"

"Yes. Hm.......... so back to the Tag structure you will see....."

I never really know how to address the discrepancies between the two views. I generally IGNORE the Order view like when I see old high school acquaintances in public. I just walk the other way. When I have tried to experiment with it by correcting an order of a page, things go wrong. Horribly wrong. For example, Tags immigrate from one group to another or completely drop to the very start or the very end of my Tag structure tree. Randomly. Or the element that I just moved in the read order is now at the end of the document overlapping other content. Or graphic elements now suddenly overlap text. I cannot find a rational way of approaching this view, so I ignore it. But I feel guilty for doing so.

To make matters worse, I get some offices that push back only using the Order panel to check for compliance. How do I address that then?

Slightly off topic, how do I correct users that push back because a page did not read correctly from Acrobat Read Aloud without the risk of offending? I generally offer the free NVDA link if they cannot purchase JAWS, but I always feel like I come off as arrogant or condescending. Too, even if the office transitions to a valid screen reader, the stigma lingers and trust can erode as we are then forever branded as "that office that can't remediate whatever for Acrobat Reader." Probably  not, but damn it sure feels that way!

So back to point, what is the purpose of the current Order panel and how do I correctly absorb it into my workflow? As I understand it all (and I'm likely wrong, I'm sure), this tool breaks more than it fixes.

Someone please correct me?

[yn]

Here's a perfect example.

Reviewing the Order panel I notice that a table is showing as the last of six elements on the page, though it visually is the third element. Alright. I click the table tag from the Order view and drag it up to be third in the list. What happened, you may wonder? I will tell you!

It broke my table, is what it did!

A single table of 8 rows is now a series of EIGHT tables, one row each. The entire tag structure table nest has been obliterated with table tag shrapnel scattered all along my poor page 22.

  <--- that's a frowny face only because I don't see a slit-wrist emoji in the options.

[maxwithdax]

If you post some screenshots we can help with your table issue.

-Dax

[yn]

I can figure out rebuilding the table in the Tags panel, but my frustration is that it must happen at all. I cannot find a logical reason why moving an element in the order view would BREAK that element. I have a contract coming with at least 50 pages of 50-row tables. Assuming anything similar happens there as with my example above, then I'm risking each 50-row table to just explode all over my Tag tree into 50 individual, single-row table tags. LOL? It would take more time reconstructing the tables than the entire contract would allow, considering they were correct from source.

It's just.... it's crazy to me that this happens.

Yeah, I'm complaining I guess. Just it's Monday morning and I needed a longer weekend.

[maxwithdax]

1. Virtually (just saying virtually to CYA - cause really it is nobody) No one who is blind uses read aloud. The results are highly unpredictable and it ignores the tag structure (which is what the entire PDF/UA and WCAG principals are based on). Features of a document like table structure, paragraph structure, heading levels, lists, alt-text and... and.. and.. (breathe...Dax....breathe) That would be like using a speak-and-spell versus an Iphone (google speak-and-spell if you don't know ). Anyone who thinks that Read Aloud is for Section 508 has NEVER watched someone who is blind actually read any document.  Bevi Chagnon | PubCom​ any stats to back this up?

Myth #5:  A PDF is accessible if it can be read using Adobe’s Read Out Loud feature.

FACT:  Adobe’s Read Out Loud feature is not considered assistive technology and cannot be used to verify compliance with Section 508 since it cannot represent the document’s logical structure (tags).

Facts vs. Myths – Appligent

Dax's steps for remediation (after I have setup all the right stuff in my InDesign document and exported a PDF)

====================================================================================

Step one - Fix obvious tag tree errors and organizational issues with tag order

Step two - Fix table issues with header rows and columns

Step three - Fix alt-text and set "actual text" for things that are just plainly voiced wrong

Step four - Fix read order issues on Read Order Panel

Step five - Fix Content order Issues if any occur from moving things around in the order panel (typically this is background elements getting pushed to the front)

Step six - Walk tags tree again to ensure that things still read in the right order.

Step seven  - Open JAWS (or NVDA) and ensure all headings, lists, figures and tables are navigable

Step eight - Spot check listen to any irregular areas of the document to ensure the proper voicing of things like strange bullets, footnotes and other non-standard items.

Step 9 - Add the 508_ to the beginning of the document name before I send it back so that wherever it goes, people know I passed it and it is remediated. (this is just our/my procedure)

BTW.. a document is compliant when:

It meets the "P.O.U.R." principals and complies with usability standards set forth in WCAG and PDF/UA guidelines. Sounds like your office needs some training on what it means to be compliant. We hired a company to come in and train on screen reader basics and remediating for office and ppt. It was a huge help in educating others on what it is that I actually do and what they can do to make the whole process easier.

Hope that helps!

-Dax

[a_C_student]

"As I understand it all (and I'm likely wrong, I'm sure), this tool breaks more than it fixes."

You are not wrong, in fact you are exactly right. Forget about ever using the Order Pane, it is worse than useless. I have no idea why Adobe persists on maintaining it. Stick to the Tags Pane to set the reading order. I also like to put the Contents Pane in the right order but that is more for tidiness than accessibility.

Regarding Read Out Loud vs. NVDA or JAWS, please consider a screen reader emulator as an alternative. An excellent one is built into the free PAC3 from Access for All. PAC3 also provides more thorough accessibility testing than Acrobat Pro.