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Digital Signatures - Please help me understand!

Engaged ,
Oct 02, 2019 Oct 02, 2019
If anyone can help me understand this I will be forever grateful. When a digital signature field is added (Prepare Form – Digital signature – add the box) the properties on the signed tab field default to ‘Nothing Happens when signed’. However, I understand that only limited changes are allowed when signing a document, at most additional signatures, so the properties on the signed tab field should be changed to ‘Mark As Read only’ (except another digital signature, if required). Is this a bad set up on Adobe’s part? Is that why I’m so confused when I now know a document can’t be changed after the first digital signature is applied?
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Community Expert ,
Oct 03, 2019 Oct 03, 2019

Hi,

 

Have you tried to add a button with an execute a menu function to reset or clear all the contents of the form?

 

 

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Engaged ,
Oct 03, 2019 Oct 03, 2019
I have a Clear Form button, yes.
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Community Expert ,
Oct 03, 2019 Oct 03, 2019
Have you test it and see if you can clear everything?
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Engaged ,
Oct 03, 2019 Oct 03, 2019
Yes, it clears any content that has been entered in the fillable fields
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Engaged ,
Oct 03, 2019 Oct 03, 2019
Can you help me? I need to know if the multiple digital signatures I've applied to my document with fillable fields has been set up properly and if the digital workflow is being done properly when each person is adding their signature?
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Community Expert ,
Oct 03, 2019 Oct 03, 2019
Yes of course I can help, and if I can't I will look for guidance somewehere else and psost it back. But can you rephrase your wuestion a little simpmer, I got somewhat lost
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Engaged ,
Oct 03, 2019 Oct 03, 2019
You are THE best! I will do my best with rephrasing, I created a document in Acrobat Pro DC with fillable fields and multiple digital signatures (Prepare Form-Digital Signature-add box). I saved the document in a folder as a template. The individual (worker) opens the document (it's a timesheet), saves a copy in their documents folder, fills it out, adds their digital signature and emails it to the next person (foreman). When the recipient (foreman) receives the email, which the last person filled out and signed, the fillable fields can be editted and the next digital signature is applied. The last digital signature is added the same way but the document is locked down after that. I really hope that made perfect sense!
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Engaged ,
Oct 03, 2019 Oct 03, 2019
Sorry I didn't really add my question, how should the properties be set when applying the digital signatures? I keep being told that you can't edit a document after it's been signed. That's where I'm confused because the recipient can make changes to the fillable fields and sign it. However, when I view the signature panel and I 'Click to view this version' I can't edit that version but I can add a digital signature.
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Community Expert ,
Oct 03, 2019 Oct 03, 2019
Yes, it took me a while to recreate your scenario in my computer and I see your point. It seems like this is a design issue. It was developed with the idea in mind that user may retract from signing a document, therefore allowing this ability for the signing user(s) to clear their own signature (not the others). From what I've been reading at this time it seems like there here is no work around for that. You may do one or more of the following however: (1) Me, for example, I assign the signing order from the wizard (Who signs first Me? or Others?) Then assign a signing order in terms of who has the highest approving or reviewing authority next. This will create a signing order in which the signing field of the last person who signs makes the entire document read-only up to that point (that includes everyone else's signature fields). So then I save the form as Reader Extended (which will not prevent from a user from clearing their own signature but the document will basically be locked (locked = read-only in this context) unless the last person who signed clears their own signature., plus preventing Acrobat Pro user from doing further editing.
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Engaged ,
Oct 03, 2019 Oct 03, 2019
When you say Wizard, do you mean Tools - Action Wizard in the PDF or Enterprize Wizard, which I don't have access to?
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Engaged ,
Oct 03, 2019 Oct 03, 2019
Sorry I think I meant Enterprise Toolkit, there's a lot of this I'm very new to. Could you provide me with direction on how to assign the signing order in Wizard? I'm looking at Tools Action Wizard and I don't know what to do
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Engaged ,
Oct 03, 2019 Oct 03, 2019
So I see you can create a form using Wizard, butfor the life of me I don't see the Forms - Create tab to do that to see if I can figure out what your suggesting. Can I do this on Acrobat Pro or would I need some sort of extended version?
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Community Expert ,
Oct 03, 2019 Oct 03, 2019

Sorry for my tardiness in replying back.

 

What I meant by wizard was to use the "Fill & Sign " Action Wizard or tool.

 

fillandsign.png

 

This is entirely and only in Acrobat Pro.  By exttended version I meant is a  Save As option that converst the forms that you create in Acrobat Pro to a Acrobat Reader form which does not allows further editing to the users. It just allows literally fill and sign the form, print , comment, and save a local copy of the form

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Engaged ,
Oct 03, 2019 Oct 03, 2019
I see what you mean now. I tried that but it won't work for us. The workflow is going well for us, I'm just confused as to why I keep being told the document needs to be set to read only when the fist signature is applied. Is that correct? I keep reading the signature will be invalid if the document is changed, but I'm paying close attention to the signature panel and they're validating just fine. But maybe that's just because that's how it's set up, but it's not supposed to be.
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Community Expert ,
Oct 04, 2019 Oct 04, 2019

What that means is that no one is able to tamper with the data that was filled in the form fields after a signature is applied; not to be confused with flattening or refrying the PDF document.

 

It basically sets a precedent in which the person who signs becomes responsible, and therefore, is certifying with that signature that the terms expressed in such document are good to go.

 

The problem that you are concerned with deals with the following two aspects:

 

1) That the file that you are sending for signatures is not really restricted from any editing , and will remain unprotected in terms of editing because anyone who owns/use an Acrobat Pro paid subscription (or even with  a 7-day trial version) can edit the file.

 

It all goes back to who was the original creator of the form.

 

In my case for example, we had a problem at work that many individual users of the form where signing the document with a bunch of errors, which in return made it impossible for me to meet the approval timelines since I had to kick them back for them to remove the signatures. Then email back to me to make corrections, then I would email back to them to collect their signatures, then they emailed back to me so I can forward to a higher authority for review... THEN, if that supervisor found errors again we would have  to restart this whole stupid and loooong process again.  I hated it... the whole nine yards.

 

So, what the original creator of this form did to avoid delaying the approval processing, he/she created an approving  managers signature block . But in that signature field he added some settings that allowed  him to sign that field, then clear the signature; upon clearing the signature everything was cleared out in that form... except!!! the fields that were already signed by the customers.

 

With this tactic he was able to do the necessary corrections for the customers(even if the forms were digitally signed), get it apporved, and send up to the big boss for final approval.

 

Now, this is highly convenient when you are just one person processing hundreds of documents a month that are always turned in last minute and that, above all things, you cannot delay the request nor the ordering process...

 

Did the customer knew that this was an actual business practice?  Of course not... Did the customers care ?  No.   The customers did not care as long as what they were signing for was approved and delivered quickly.

 

The problem begun when the customers discovered the signing field that was configured to do that and then they started abusing it. It became an serious ethical issue.

 

No one has gone to jail (yet). But that is why you should send this forms as Reader Extended so no user is allowed to edit or see any scripting or code .

 

The worst damage they will do (if they dare to do so) is to refry the document and read  their own fields again; which you will notice the difference visually and through other methods.

 

 

2) The second aspect is Editing.

 

There is an ambivalent aspect in what exactly underlies as unethical if the  original creator of the PDF file had  good intentions (like the example above).

 

But then again, in which case, how far a less ethical person will use Adobe Acrobat Pro, for example, to create a "Reset Form" button that will clear everything but the signed signature fields.This will allow to change all the content at will while preserving the digitally signed fields that are already stamped with time and date.

 

That is a problem that I had to battle for almost a year in my workplace.

 

So my workaround was to become the sole and only creator of my forms. I had to recreate my own forms from scratch and I didn't even use MS Word templates or export to PDF from any other program(s)...

 

I created my forms entirely in PDF, then I flattened the file, then I added my fields, then I added all my scripts to it,  Save the forms as Reader extended and that is what my  users have to  sign now  regardless if they like it or not

(i will never ever send an original unprotected form to user that was created with Acrobat Pro as an Adobe Acrobat Pro file---I will always convert them to Reader Extended).  

 

I also have 100 % support from my supervisors which has helped tremendously alleviate this ethical issue that was going on for so long.

 

So, going back to the signing order...

 

In my form(s) the assigned signing order implies that the last higher supervisor's signature fields converts everything to readonly up to that point. And the very last BIG BOSS supervisor signature field will convert the whole document to readonly as soon as his/her signature is applied.

 

Just remember this is not the same as refrying or flattening the document; as soon as that signture is removed from that field so will the read-only restrictions.

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Engaged ,
Oct 03, 2019 Oct 03, 2019
If the workflow we are currently doing is acceptable and not compromizing the integrity of the document, then it's all good. But if it's a design issue, then I will need to ensure the document will be set to read only when the first signature is applied. It's possible they may need to be used for legal reasons so I want to make sure we're doing everything right.
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Community Expert ,
Oct 04, 2019 Oct 04, 2019
I think the best explanation I can offer is my reply above . I am sharing my personal experience in this area with you. It is very hard when you land in toxic work environments where these things that you are concerned about do happen.
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Engaged ,
Oct 04, 2019 Oct 04, 2019
In my work environment, the employees signing the timesheets do not have Acrobat Pro, they are signing with Acrobat Reader. I don’t think it’s necessarily that the contents can’t be edited after it’s been signed, I think it’s more like they shouldn’t be. As quoted on the Adobe website ‘Document integrity verification confirms whether the signed content changed after it was signed. If content changes, document integrity verification confirms whether the content changed in a manner permitted by the signer’. I think it’s important for us to question, is the employee fully aware that content may be changed by the foreman and/or manager after they are signing it? Many of them have no clue about computers. It should be also considered that the employees’ time may be filled out on behalf of a crew lead or foreman, it’s not necessarily the individual filling out their own timesheet. Personally, I think we to re-consider if the employee should even be adding their digital signature when filling it out and submitting for approval. It is not required that an employee sign a timesheet, but it is recommended they keep a copy of what they submitted. Could it possibly be more of a risk for us if they add their digital signature? Maybe it could, unless each individual were to fill out their own time and the document goes to read only when signed, but that simply doesn’t work for us. It’s the foreman’s responsibility to know what the employees are doing and sign off to approve the contents are accurate and the manager signs off to make the final approval. I’ve had to re-create the timesheets for my department so they are fully functional from the person filling it out to the timekeeper entering the time. In order to do that I had to apply JavaScript, so they work fantastic and look great, which my employer recognized by presenting me with an innovation award. That was cool. They would also like to re-create the timesheets for the other departments, which I’m hoping I will be able to do and be in control of them, but first the we need to iron the wrinkles. You have been tremendously helpful for me and I simply can’t thank you enough for helping me. You ARE the best!!
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Community Expert ,
Oct 04, 2019 Oct 04, 2019
LATEST

Well thank you Ma'am and you're welcome ....plus congrats for getting recognized for that effort. I love it! Something like that happened to me too, I started adding javascripts to these old prehistoric PDF forms that they were using and now they look so amazing, they also work blazing fast. And since I started learning how to use Acrobat the more my work lifestyle has turned around in very positive ways. Most coworkers dont usually go that far to even seek help in a support forum. In the past 3 months alone I have learned so much , I am very grateful. So thank you to you too for sharing your feedback.

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