HARMAN pricing. Is it realistic?

[ASWC]

HARMAN pricing has been announced and is not cheap. I said in a few posts it will likely be low and I was simply wrong. My company already said NO (I asked) and we are now leaving AIR for good.

I sure do understand the need for HARMAN to profit but it seems to me that pricing is too high. As a result maybe some people are going to pay while actively seeking alternative solution and quickly leaving the tech afterward.

What do you guys think of that pricing? Good for the future of AIR or not good?

[Flashneverdies]

Thanks, but you say 'easy' to create a batch for the certificate process.. For free? But I have no idea how to do that on the Mac. Bare in mind that I will never touch the Command line (Terminal) or anything complex like that.

Is there a guide out there?

Also, how recently did you publish to the Mac Appstore? Things change pretty fast with software, and I'd need to know the exact method before getting a Mac licence. I imagine that Apple would require you to use a proper paid Cert right?

Is a DMG file the final output?

[hferreira80]

"For free?"

On macOS, yes, using the macOS authoring tools.

On Windows, no, but you can buy one for a low price (I don't say what's the company name because they don't payment the advertise ).

"But I have no idea how to do that on the Mac."

I would say that a web engine is your friend but that is so common answer  I would say that Adobe AIR forums is your friend  and you will got the "recipe" as you wish.

"I will never touch the Command line (Terminal)"

So, it's a good time to start I also don't use terminal a lot each days but I have macOS sh files to do that for me. I put them with a shortcut on my touch bar with a pretty icon, lolol. At least my touch bar now have a meaning to exist

"Is there a guide out there?"

For macOS, yes, it is. I don't recall where, so you will have to type on a search engine

For Windows, the same company that you can buy the certificate (at least the one I use), also provide a pretty windows form UI to do it.

"Also, how recently did you publish to the Mac Appstore? Things change pretty fast with software"

I did it years ago. For that exact reason, constant updates on my side and store bulling developers with constant rules changes, I decided to certify my Apps yes but release directly to my clients without the store in the middle

"I imagine that Apple would require you to use a proper paid Cert right?"

Already answered above.

"Is a DMG file the final output?"

It's a .app You can easily create a DMG with a pretty background natively with macOS tools (search it on a web engine) or you can easily find a free or commercial tool for that on Mac App Store but I prefer to use the macOS tools.

[PippoApps]

At least my touch bar now have a meaning to exist

❤️

[Flashneverdies]

Thanks very much for the info!

I’ll look into the Mac authoring tools first.

When researching Certs I came across 2 potential companies - Thawte and Globalsign.

Thanks again,

Matt

[mattr8755445]

If you're looking for examples of AIR Desktop apps, here's some games on Steam that use AIR:

My stuff:
Epic Battle Fantasy 5
Bullet Heaven 2
Epic Battle Fantasy 3 (this one is free)

Games by other developers:
Machinarium
Botanicula
Samorost 3
Defenders Quest
Evoland 1 & 2

Super Chibi Knight

Deep Under the Sky

Anodyne
Sentry Knight Tactics
The Last Door

Road Not Taken

Not AIR, but still Flash apps:
Neo Scavenger (Flash projector)
Epic Battle Fantasy 4 (MDM Zinc)
Intrusion 2 (MDM Zinc)
The Binding of Isaac (custom wrapper)

[ASWC]

My company can pay pretty much whatever, and fees, even big ones, are not a problem so they are definitely not "cheap" as you say. Our private JIRA system costs pretty much a whole developer salary each year but they don't mind because it DELIVERS what it promises. So here you have it, that's why my management is done with AIR:

- they know AIR has only been declining for the past few years.

- they don't know HARMAN.

- HARMAN has no roadmaps/future plans announced.

- HARMAN is asking for money but has NOTHING to show for.

- we have an alternative ready to go.

I think the real question is this, if as a company you can drop AIR right now, why wouldn't you?

[hferreira80]

I'm divide with what you said.

Agree and disagree, lololol

- they know AIR has only been declining for the past few years.

True.

- they don't know HARMAN.

True. The very first time I heard about Harman, was here in the forum. However no ones know me. At least we should give a chance.

- HARMAN has no roadmaps/future plans announced.

True. This is the worst part. Seems however that there is a promise to show the roadmap soon.

- HARMAN is asking for money but has NOTHING to show for.

True. I never (I mean, ever) asked for money before show the product. This is totally wrong. However they got a product in the very worst scenario possible, so, the rules are not exactly the same and people were also became unconfortable for not know the price table.

- we have an alternative ready to go.

And you should. I'm tired of nonsense excuses. But each one knows his plan.

[Vivid75]

I don’t think you should have to worry if you just need one enterprise license. For me, $2000 a year is nothing compared to how many apps we support and build a year. The biggest question I have is what does the fee cover? Maintenance or innovation in the AIR SDK. I hope it’s the latter.

one last thing: price it by Framework.

1. Mobile (iOS and Android)

2. Desktop (Mac and Windows)

3. Comprehensive (All)

[ASWC]

This makes sense but only if HARMAN delivers on promises that is new features, improvement of the framework, etc ... If they don't, then that pricing is just meant to force people to pay just for the privilege to keep their AIR app on the stores, you stop paying, then by contract to need to recompile your apps. And this decision has to be made before HARMAN has shown anything yet. My skeptical nature says this smells pretty bad and none of this will bring ONE new developer to AIR as HARMAN said this was one of their goal.

[Leo Kanel]

ASWC  wrote

What do you see in that crystal ball? I've been called out for saying "dead" so I switched to "uncertain future", a tech with an "uncertain future" is a tech that is not doing very good.

Well I said the exact same things (and certain people tried to burn us lol ). AIR was going to die in August due to the 64 bit requirement, after missing 2 released (One in March and one in June). Now it will be kept in life support for a year maybe before it is completely EOLed as i doubt there are more than 10k developers globally using AIR any more.

michaelarchbold​

They said that in contractors case, then the revenue from the contracts will be considered as revenue from AIR apps. So if you charge 25k for an app, then that's your revenue.

[hferreira80]

"Now it will be kept in life support for a year maybe before it is completely EOLed as i doubt there are more than 10k developers globally using AIR any more."

Is being in life support already on the past 2 years.

I have being using another runtime/environment for mobile lately and I must say that it's completly different scenario.

AIR developer get used to beg and pray for the minimum OS/marketshare requirements but on another side of the earth we see a different story. It's the vendors that push the tech with new features.

You find blogs and components with months if not days and if you search by AIR, you find dated blog and source code from 2008 to 2011.

Even with 10k developers (and you are being generous on that number), I bet many will pay well for as long as the new AIR vendor wants, even without new features but only keep AIR on life support.

[Leo Kanel]

This is true, but don't tell the hardcore fanboys One even posted a spreadsheet a while ago with all the new features we got in 2018. In the fake information spreadsheet, he had "os updates" as features in order to show that tech was keep moving forward...

The 10k took under consideration the biggest facebook group (4.2k) so I doubled it to be generous . If 10% ends up paying, we have a concrete  1000 devs.

ps. 90% of our clients asked us to move to other platforms once the March release (it was supposed to be AIR33) was missed.

[hferreira80]

"This is true, but don't tell the hardcore fanboy"

Hehe, we have a few around here, indeed

1000 devs paying from the very beginning, nothing bad at all !

"ps. 90% of our clients asked us to move to other platforms once the March release"

And, if I may say, it's a good advice that you should take in to account, serious.

I first evaluate the options out there, than choose a few, learn how much I could, test small use cases, see the history and the community and finally come to only one option.

Any new dev that arrives and do exactly the same I did, will not choose AIR (and I'm not taking into account the price model).

But anyway, if they start with 1000 dev's, it's very, very good on my opinion.

[Frédéric C.]

hferreira80  a écrit

"This is true, but don't tell the hardcore fanboy"

Hehe, we have a few around here, indeed

1000 devs paying from the very beginning, nothing bad at all !

"ps. 90% of our clients asked us to move to other platforms once the March release"

And, if I may say, it's a good advice that you should take in to account, serious.

I first evaluate the options out there, than choose a few, learn how much I could, test small use cases, see the history and the community and finally come to only one option.

Any new dev that arrives and do exactly the same I did, will not choose AIR (and I'm not taking into account the price model).

But anyway, if they start with 1000 dev's, it's very, very good on my opinion.

I'm happy your situation allows you to switch techs easily. In my case, it's just not possible at that moment, as I have many legacy products that completely rely on AIR, and that constitute my main income. Sticking to AIR is not only a personal choice, it is also due to technical constraints that are hard to overcome.

Right now, reading those forums is very depressing. For the people who still need AIR for a living, it feels like being on a sinking boat, trying desperately to keep it afloat because it's a life-threatening situation. And at the same time, you have people watching you from the shore, pointing fingers at you while laughing, and shouting "FAAAANNBOOYYYYS!!". Please give us a break.

[Oldes]

Don't be so depressed.

I was able to repack our ANEs and make a 64-bit build and on the first sign it is working just fine. And I would rather pay Harman who is active and responding than Adobe where seems to be no humans anymore.

[hferreira80]

That, I agree with you.

The balance, it's that is better now than worst.

[Frédéric C.]

Thank you buddy for that ray of light, lol.

[zwetan_uk]

https://forums.adobe.com/people/Fr%C3%A9d%C3%A9ric+C.  wrote

hferreira80   a écrit

...

Any new dev that arrives and do exactly the same I did, will not choose AIR (and I'm not taking into account the price model).

But anyway, if they start with 1000 dev's, it's very, very good on my opinion.

I'm happy your situation allows you to switch techs easily. In my case, it's just not possible at that moment, as I have many legacy products that completely rely on AIR, and that constitute my main income. Sticking to AIR is not only a personal choice, it is also due to technical constraints that are hard to overcome.

...

It is also a good business decision

when you have one or many apps that already have been developed
whatever amount of revenues, the AIR 33 SDK licensing price represents 0,4% to 1% of that revenue

which is a drop in the bucket

switching tech involve porting/rewriting the app, retesting, different bugs etc.
this its not a zero cost, I would even argue it cost 100x more and it does not happen overnight

also it seems that some people are completely oblivious that this license does not restrict the number of apps
you could perfectly pay the licensing fee for one recent/successful app and that would automatically allow you

to also update 100s of lecacy apps

it is a very good and fair thing that the licensing fee is capped per revenue

it is good business to pay and invest into your tools, 1% is nothing

[el111]

zwetan_uk

I think their ranges could be tweaked a bit.

The personal turnover range is quite narrow at 25-50, the pro range is broad at 50-200. You could have a turnover of 55 and thus have to pay 999 per year, which is a bit steep imho.

[hferreira80]

Between the black and the white, there is a gray area.

For those who have just crossed one of the barriers, you will have to pay as much as an entity that was on the threshold of the end of the same barrier.

But it is what it is.

[pierrehuber]

Flash is dead ... again ... but this is final nail in the coffin

[dmunsie]

What exactly.... is "kpa" ?

[PippoApps]

It seems kpa == "thousands of dollars per year".

I think it's not so bad. If I cash in 50k I'd be happy to pay 199 before tax for the professional tool that allows me to do that.

Speculation is only about how realistic and successful the other tiers can be, but I guess HARMAN had its marketing prospects done properly.

[PippoApps]

I don't understand, there is still a free tier with a "made with AIR" splashscreen, I don't see where's the problem sincerely.

It is still really hard to check that revenue thing, so if you want you can risk it and keep the free tier also if you make heaps of money with it. I really do not see the issue here. They probably have some marketing prospects that make this price tiers realistic.

You can still use it for free. I think this is the point to make clear.

[mattr8755445]

I think the pricing is reasonable as long as we're getting regular new features. Of course I'd prefer if it was less, but I'm happy to pay if it makes porting my games to different platforms very easy.

What I really don't like is the rules about auditting, and needing to keep the subscription for as long as your apps are on the market.
As a Desktop game developer, I can publish a game on Steam, and possibly never need to update it. Under these new rules I'd have to keep paying the AIR fee every year, for who knows how long! But I don't publish games very often - once a year at most - so I can see how developers could exploit the old pricing and only buy a subscription for a month when they publish. I'm not sure what the best compromise is here - maybe give devs a good deal if they buy a long-term subscription, and charge more for a single month?

Either way, I'm keen to try porting my Desktop games to mobile, and if AIR makes that easy, I'll be happy, even if I have to pay a lot for it.
(But I'll keep using old versions of AIR for my Desktop stuff, if this pricing stays!)