Is BC outdated

[studiomigo]

Hi

This not a question nor a debate just some thought I wanted to share and see if anyone feels the same. Who is BC for? It seems like it started as an easy platform for web designers to create complex websites with relatively easy tools.

Now with so many great and REALY easy platforms (Squarespace, Wix, Shopify etc) I find it hard to advice people (and clients) to use BC. It's overall support and vibe seem to diminish and become irrelevant. It's enough to look at it's lame template and third-party selection to realise it's no longer a tool for designers and more a platform for big-house .NET developers.

Why on earth then would I use BC and not a real modern drag n' drop interface with delightful interfaces and modules?

Cheers

Mic

[Liam Dilley]

Since you can not code .net on the BC platform, how is it for hard core .net developers?

Drag and Drop targets small designers etc, if you want a product to be successful and grow you need to target digital agencies.

The low end market is flooded and those click and drag can only do so much and go so far. Adobe has already tried dumbing down BC even more through Muse and that failed.

[studiomigo]

Thank Liam

That's why I am trying to figure out who is BC for. on BC website it says:

"Business Catalyst (BC) is an all-in-one business website and online marketing solution, built for web designers. Using our unified platform and without back-end coding, you can build everything from amazing websites to powerful online stores, beautiful brochure-ware sites to lead generation mini-sites."

Sorry, but BC is no longer built for web designers. The learning path and development needed to create up to date, trendy and delightful websites require .net and JS developers.

[Liam Dilley]

One key thing to note is, a top agency looking for a really good web designer will ask them to have the following skills these days: CSS3, HTML5, Front facing javascript (basic to high), a web designer will know UI design, all about the web, digital viewing, responsive design and be able to code up the layouts, animations and so on. That is bare minimum. A web designer who is freelancing and say using wordpress for example would actually have to know more because they would need to do some form of PHP here and there as well as have more understanding of setting up hosting etc then you would on BC.

It is not built for graphic designers. There are a lot of graphic designers out there trying to stumble into web design, there are lots out there of course who have made the transition, learnt the differences between the two arts, some do not know any coding but work in an agency where they would with a team of people, some learn some and so on...

There are a lot coming through trying to use things like Muse where such tools do not teach you coding etc, but allows you to create a site of some form. What is worse though is they do not teach you the essential knowledge of how the modern web works and how you design and build websites for that modern web. You do not just design a flat web design as if it was on an a4 peace of paper and then use a tool to draw that out, put it on the web, be done and watch it get top of google and do well for the business. You have all the Digital marketing considerations, you have all the UX to think about, responsive design, performance, SEO etc. And again, if you are freelance VS being in an agency you will actually have to know these things, better you are, the more you know.

Think about all the things you need to know to tell the business how to use a website, how they will need to manage it, how they will need work on their content, how to do SEO keywords etc.... That is not very "Web design" as your thinking... Do not know or do that as a Freelancer and you end up like what I have to be part of fixing.. Many websites built with none of anything I mentioned here, a company that has spent a lot of money getting nothing of what they hoped for or needed and needing a online aspect of their business.

You also mention Shopify... Something that is only primarily eCommerce and lacks other features BC has for one, another thing is that it runs on the Liquid Markup coding language, something they made open and something BC has adopted to use, that is not a designer thing.

Squarespace has a lot of drag and drop UI etc but actually has several template and code features BC does not have, in terms of the eCommerce it has more basic features too.

And then you have the question when people want more features or need X and want Y. When you ask for more features, more complexity, be able to do more... As MANY people have over the years you need to add them in to be ahead of the curve etc. This is actually BC's problem, it actually has NOT done this enough, it has not gone to the agencies, it has not treated itself as the photoshop of web production. As such it has lost ground and lots favourability, not because it has gone lower end, but its not been the tool people need it to be.

[studiomigo]

Thanks Liam.

I head teams of web developers, graphic designers and product designers (UX). When we where about to develop our corporate website I contacted BC to ask if they support minimal corporate needs such as multi-languages, backups, dev/testing environments, publishing rights and robust CRM with more than 10K email marketing a month and also the ability to use Web Apps in the marketing package as we didn't need e-commerce. No! they couldn't support anything we asked. We ended up like a million other businesses using WordPress. Yes, WP is brittle but the ROI was far greater than using BC. And I REALLY wanted to use BC!

Now I am facing the same dilemma but for a small local website. Nothing fancy but the client wants things that BC cannot offer out of the box such as beautiful responsive layouts such as Squarespace and Wix. BC's template offerings are a shame especially from a company raising the design banner and advocates for art and creativity.

Every product is a compromise. It just seems like BC compromises a lot and simply lost it's direction.

[Liam Dilley]

BC FULLY supports responsive design, Not sure where you are seeing that but we been making fully responsive sites including eCommerce ones for some time. Squarespace actually has less ability then BC does in that regard, same with Wix, in its limit options and nothing else, BC you are not limited at all.

[studiomigo]

I didn't say BC is not responsive. It just has a very limited amount of responsive templates to choose from.

[Liam Dilley]

Can not comment on templates, very anti template because they tend to be not good, copy sites all around the web and so on, so not a fan.

[john stephanites]

I thought the same thing when I logged into the BC partner portal the first time. They have an in browser editor page that you prolly haven't seen yet because I don't think you would be saying this. BC actually does support responsive design (if you want drag and drop to design and develop use Muse) and if you search you will find better templates out there. All though not free just like WP the good ones cost money. I don't think BC could fit anymore options into an already truly robust system. Maybe it would be better to ask those questions? Such as what the client wants and that you couldn't figure out how to do. There are some Ninja's on here that certainly will help. Good luck!

[JohnSSmith]

I have to agree studiomigo, and have said similar in this forum myself.

Originally BC was promoted to Business Owners as an easy to use site, that had a lot of different functionality.

Not the case anymore  -

a) It is too expensive for a business owner that needs/wants something simple, and no web designer.

b) It is cheap when compared to some of the other platforms out there, but its functionality suffers.

c) There has been a huge push in the coding and ability to design in BC, however that has been to the detriment of the business/functionality side of BC, with no real advances.

d) The only business side of the platform that shines is probably the Shopping Cart.

e) Email marketing lacks so much of the standard practices out there now, it is really just a newsletter tool.

f) Modules - all very simple, although I think the event module may have more functionality than I give it credit for, however I have not tested that one. I mean lol even the photo galley seems to have no ability to sort by date - who sorts photos by name?????

In summary I think BC sits in the small-medium category, unless you can code around it.

[Liam Dilley]

Hi John.

For B - Could you put down what you compare BC to and what you think it lacks in functionality compared to what you are thinking?

For C - If you build a house or new extensions to your house you have to ensure you bolster or re-do your foundations or it will fall apart. Software systems are exactly the same.

For D - I have to disagree, most people hardly use all the CRM and flow features of the platform because they do not invest the time to learn them. Sometimes when I tell people the things you can do with the workflows, custom CRM features etc they are surprised they are even there and I see so many people saying BC does not do x or y when it actually does. Like in this discussion, initially its it can not do responsive, when it can for example.

For E - Again, what do you think it is missing that is "Standard Practice", just saying it does not does not really help BC or anyone, what do you think is standard and what do you think BC is missing? I bet at least some of the ones you list it will actually do.

For F - Have you tried sorting it by date?

[JohnSSmith]

Ok

BC Enhancement request

For B - I have put some solutions to the main ones about Campaigns

For C - I don't disagree, however business solutions have not advanced as well.

For D - There is lots you can do possibly, but always falls short to me.

For E - Well I list what real email campaign software can do - if you can do that in BC - Please show me how

For F - {module_photogallery,ID,rowLength,targetFrame,resultsPerPage,Width,Height,UseStandardMethod,thumbnailAlgorithm} Here is the code for insertion - how do you sort it by date of the file.

[Liam Dilley]

I replied to your post John, some valid points and some high end marketing requests for some specifics, but there is a number of things that you ask for you can already do in BC.

In terms of modules etc, I take it you have not looked into all the new named modules, liquid markup etc?

Do not get me wrong, BC has not updated enough its core features, In fact they been down right slow about it but there is a difference between features, not knowing them and core foundations to build those features.

You also need to remember this is all in one solution, asking for features a dedicated service is spending 24/7 on developing is unrealistic and if that is an issue no one who does not like that should use BC or similar solutions. People fill out a form on your website, it goes in the CRM, you can have login, email campaigns associated with them, custom report data based on that and so on. That is where BC comes into play with the all in one solution, the shared data solution. With that you/client are paying one service bill.

If you have wordpress you will have to get a SSL certificate, you will need to get hosting, domain hosting, emails, mailchimp for example, affiliate program.... And so on.. All the cost adds up but then you have multiple bills across multiple sources and services that you have to manage. Then you have to get them all to talk to each other, which will often require custom development or plugins that have to be kept updated... And so on and so on.

Very different things and I just trying to make it clear that keeping things in perspective as well as being realistic is very important.

[JohnSSmith]

Liam

I don't disagree with what you are saying, but BC functionality as you say

Do not get me wrong, BC has not updated enough its core features, In fact they been down right slow about it but there is a difference between features, not knowing them and core foundations to build those features.

Down right slow is misleading - much of the functionality has not changed since day 1 when Bernie was selling this in seminars in RSL meeting rooms.

BC is failing to keep up with what is happening in the marketplace, and yes I understand you need a good foundation, and again I am not disagreeing with you, but at some time the functionality needs to catch up whether they are new requests or changes to existing functionality so BC remains relevant in the marketplace to how it is sold.

[Liam Dilley]

That actually is un-true though John, To say much of the functionality is unchanged is not correct. That is quite not the case.

BC is failing to keep up with the market place but I feel that your not up to speed with BC's actual progression and also the market place. What is the market place, where do you want to go etc? As I mentioned earlier in this thread, BC tried the low end with Muse and CC and that did not work out very well, so it is defiantly not there they should be targeting.

On that I think you are in a similar space as me as the direction of BC, but what its initially goals were in terms of the all in one solution and properly work on those features and the marketing and integration benefits etc. I think it was always a wording mistake that BC used, for me BC was something you did not need server or server side coding knowledge of - That is how I always took it, rather then no coding at all. Especially as time has gone on, if your trying to make sites with no knowledge of the web concepts and coding front end... There is only so far people will go.

[JohnSSmith]

Liam

I am and always will come from the business side of things

I think Liam you come from the code, markup, etc side of things, and I agree there has been lots of change there.

For me, the business side has not actually moved forward very much at all.

I want a proper email marketing tool, where I can set up an ongoing  campaign with 3-5 messages, that know if the client replied. I can do that in other out of box systems which include most or all that BC have in other modules.

My suggestions on the other page would allow that -

Through Workflows with simple triggering of Email Campaigns by workflow, or workflows triggered by actions within an email (other than filling out a form).

[Fubals]

Hi Mic,

GREAT QUESTION!

Short answer is... "Some of it is, Some of it isn't."

[studiomigo]

Like Fubals said "Some of it is, Some of it isn't.". I think most of it isn't. And I agree with JohnSSith. from a business point of view and ROI other platforms simply make more sense even if they compromise on some minor features. For small to medium size business who need to setup a marketing or even an e-commerce website there are simply far better options out there in terms of ROI. As a designer I prefer working on a platform with a great starting point (template) and integrate with third part tools such as MailChimp and Eventbrite for instance rather than hire a developer to hack BC's event modules and CRM to do what other tools provide for free or small fee.

Most clients simply want to mimic what they see (trendy) and what they see is mostly smart, delightful user experiences that come from third party tools which BC simply does not offer or at least it's far too much work to mimic.

This is not a debate. I think we all have legitimate comments. it's only that BC tagline as a tool for web designer is not the really the case anymore.

[Liam Dilley]

That is more of a preference of approach, you prefer the different elements vs an all in one solution and a fan of templates and have clients who just want replication.

Compared to us that is different as well as a different client base and Web marketing/design methodology.
Things like BC will never be for you then and really a different topic of conversation.