Canon T1i

Canon is releasing a new camera next month. It is the Canon Rebel T1i. What version of Camera Raw is required to read raw files produced by this camera?

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Canon T1i

Canon is releasing a new camera next month. It is the Canon Rebel T1i. What version of Camera Raw is required to read raw files produced by this camera?

Stevendm

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Re: Canon T1i

If the camera has not been released, it cannot be supported by any existing version of ACR.

Once the camera is released (actually on the shelves) you can count on the ACR Team doing its best to incorporate it in a future release of ACR, which is updated from three to four times per year.  Such a future release of ACR would be supported only in the current version of Photoshop.  The corresponding version of the stand-alone DNG Converter, which is always released in tandem with ACR, will also support the camera.  DNG files can be opened in ACR 2.4 and later versions.

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Re: Canon T1i

Can I have two versions of Camera Raw installed on one computer? I will need the 4.x version for Photoshop CS3 and the upcoming 5.x for the DNG converter for the T1i?

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Re: Canon T1i

Steven, support for the Canon 500D (i.e., T1i) is planned for the next dot release (i.e., free update) of Camera Raw and the DNG Converter. If you have CS3 only (not CS4), then you will only need the DNG Converter. It is a standalone application and does not require the Camera Raw 5.x plug-in to function.

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Re: Canon T1i

To emphasize what MadManChan (a most helpful member of the Adobe Camera Raw team) said, you need CS4 to run the upcoming release of (presumably) ACR 5.4, as CS3 cannot run anything later than ACR 4.6.

The DNG Converter is a stand-alone application you use to convert the raw files from the camera to DNG files first, and then open the converted DNG files in ACR 4.6 running under.  You will need the upcoming release of the DNG Converter (again presumably 5.4), not an earlier version.

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Re: Canon T1i

Thanks for the info.

I also have Lightroom 2.3. What are the steps needed to use the raw files there? Will I still need to convert to dng then use these in LR?

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Re: Canon T1i

Presumably there will be a dot release update for Lightroom 2.x—eventually, following the releasse of the ACR and DNG Converter versions that will support your camera.  If Lightroom takes a little longer, then, yes you could convert your raw files to DNGs with the yet-to-be dot release of the DNG Converter.

Congratulations on asking all these questions BEFORE you buy the camera.  

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Re: Canon T1i

Thank you for all of your help.

If I ask my questions before I buy the camera I can only be mad at myself if everything doesn't work. Otherwise I might be mad at Adobe.

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Re: Canon T1i

I'd just like to add that I received my 500d (T1i) yesterday and was extremely frustrated that the CR2 RAW files don't open in CS3 or the DNG converter. I'm using the supplied 'Digital Photo Professional' to open and convert the files but, after using Bridge and Photoshop for so long, it leaves a lot to be desired. Unfortunately, it isn't possible to convert to another RAW format within the supplied software, only 8/16bit Tiff and Jpeg, but it is adequate for now.

Bizarrely, Bridge CS3 can read the metadata from the files just not show the actual images.

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Re: Canon T1i

Unfortunately, 'tis the nature of the beast. Happens almost every time a new

camera comes out. We haven't seen the T1i ourselves yet so there's no way we

could've characterized it (e.g., for color, noise, white balance, etc.).

Eric

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Re: Canon T1i

That's why I wrote in post #6 addressing the OP:

Congratulations on asking all these questions BEFORE you buy the camera.  

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Re: Canon T1i

It doesn't stop you from using the camera though, or processing the RAW images, it just means that you have to do without Adobe's Camera Raw for a little while. I wouldn't have held off or bought a different camera if I'd known before hand, I'd rather have the extra time taking pics and videos than twiddling my thumbs.

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Re: Canon T1i

Maybe; but in your other post you mentioned being "extremely frustrated" and sounded aggravated.

Due diligence research a little earlier on would have saved you the frustration and aggravation.  

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Re: Canon T1i

I had this same problem (unfortunately, didn't research prior to my purchase).  I ended up converting the files to jpeg through my camera software. Then you can open the saved jpeg images in Adobe Bridge and do a CTR R on Open and you at least get the RAW editor.  Not the same as having them in RAW but a much faster way to edit using Photoshop until a fix is done.

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Re: Canon T1i

I have stumbled on to a work-around until Camera RAW is updated by Adobe.

1.  Open the image in Canon's Digitial Photo Pro.

2   In DPP, go to the edit screen.

3.  Under "Tools", choose "transfer to Photoshop".

4.  In CS4, Photoshop opens the image as a .tif file.

You could edit in DPP and then transfer, or do all your editing in Photoshop.

Good luck!

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Re: Canon T1i

Just to throw in my 2c again....

The camera has been in the hands of reviewers for months, I'd be amazed if Canon didn't let Adobe have a model at the same time so that they could work on the Camera Raw update. It's not much of an excuse to say that the update hasn't been created because the camera has only just been released...Does an Adobe staff member have to physically buy every camera when it's released and not a moment earlier?

Back on topic...

I'm archiving the photo's as 16bit Tiffs which offers the same bit-depth as the RAW files, allowing exposure tweaking further down the line in Photoshop if required. If I had something really precious I'd just save the RAW file but, so far, I haven't needed to do much tweaking...the camera takes great photos.

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Re: Canon T1i

Adobe Community Professional , May 11, 2009

There is another solution: Adobe (by the work of Thomas Knoll and the ACR team) have created the DNG format, and have an SDK ready.

Canon could use that format alongside their CR2 format, like Pentax is doing. Had they chosen this way, Lightroom, Camera Raw, and other raw converters could have opened the files on the very first day of the release of the camera!

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Re: Canon T1i

The camera has been in the hands of reviewers for months, I'd be amazed if

Canon didn't let Adobe have a model at the same time so that they could work

on the Camera Raw update. It's not much of an excuse to say that the update

hasn't been created because the camera has only just been released...Does an

Adobe staff member have to physically buy every camera when it's released and

not a moment earlier?

Well Eggbox, I guess it's time for you to be amazed.

In general, yes, Adobe does get early camera samples from camera makers.

This helps us to add camera support in a more timely fashion, so updates get

out to our users sooner. Unfortunately, in the case of the 500D/T1i, Adobe

has not yet received any loaner/preproduction/review sample from Canon.

(Adobe != reviewer.) Frankly, there is nothing Adobe can do about that.

One workaround is for us to buy a unit when it ships. But that introduces a

significant delay, and the cameras don't ship in all countries at the same

time. (I believe the 500D/T1i only recently started shipping in the USA, for

example.)

We really do want to add support for new cameras and get the release out to

you as soon as we can, but sometimes there really are things beyond our

control.

Eric

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Re: Canon T1i

Wow, that's just nuts. The only semi-rational explanation I can come up with for Canon not zipping you one of the first cameras off the assembly line is that they want people using THEIR software instead of Photoshop/Lightroom, so they don't want to help what they see as their competitor. With all due respect to the fine people at Canon, if that's their attitude they're flat-out loco. It's just jaw-dropping that if Adobe wants to modify their software so Canon shooters can import RAW files from their new camera, someone first has to order the camera from Amazon or drive down to Best Buy.

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Re: Canon T1i

genebromberg wrote:

Wow, that's just nuts. The only semi-rational explanation I can come up with for Canon not zipping you one of the first cameras off the assembly line is that they want people using THEIR software instead of Photoshop/Lightroom, so they don't want to help what they see as their competitor. With all due respect to the fine people at Canon, if that's their attitude they're flat-out loco. It's just jaw-dropping that if Adobe wants to modify their software so Canon shooters can import RAW files from their new camera, someone first has to order the camera from Amazon or drive down to Best Buy.

Congratulations!  You are beginning to understand the dilemma facing raw photographers.  Each camera manufacturer has their own proprietary raw format with raw software designed to enable you to edit that image.  They are not concerned with Photoshop or camera raw or Lightroom or any other "third party" raw converter.  That's why they have proprietary fields in their exif data.  Lightroom, ACR and other raw converters cannot read that information, and it's that way by design.  These companies cannot stop Adobe from supporting the camera, and creating profiles to emulate those proprietary settings, but they can prevent Adobe and others from reading that data directly.  It's not in the best interests of the photographer.  It's in the best interest of the company.  And therein lies the issue surrounding raw support.

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Re: Canon T1i

I knew every company had it's own RAW format, just not that they were THAT opposed to others duplicating that format to provide ease of use. I thought it was more a technical issue than a proprietary one. I'm sure this is a point that's been raised before, but this doesn't seem to make much sense from Canon's point of view. They want to sell cameras, but if you're thinking of upgrading and know that for months you won't be able to use your preferred software to read the RAW files you might put off that purchase. Or look at a competing camera that already has that support. Seems a bit short-sighted, as that course of action prevents your customer from fully enjoying your product's abilities, keeps those customers from developing an even deeper attachment to your brand, perhaps spurs your customers to write frustrated, whiny posts on another company's forums, etc.

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Re: Canon T1i

From the photographer/customer point of view, everything you say makes perfect sense.  It has been suggested by others on this forum that one should check before they purchase a camera to make sure it is supported.  And the argument against that is that that should never have to be a consideration.  Unfortunately it is.  This "turf" attitude is one of the main things that motivated the Adobe to develop the DNG (Digital negative) format in an attempt to "standardize" the raw format.  But even to do that, Adobe has to be able to create a profile for each specific camera.  Pentax, as far as I know, is the only camera manufacturer that has adopted the DNG format that as an alternative raw format.  With their digital SLRs it is possible to choose between the native raw format and the DNG format.  New users can choose the DNG format and have immediate support for their raw images, newest models.  Other manufacturers apparently haven't shown any interest in doing this.  The problem doesn't bother me anymore.  I have one of those old-fashioned Nikon D40 cameras that has been supported for quite some time.  But we read the frustration from people, just like you, whenever a new camera is introduced and they want immediate support.  One good thing going for you, Canon (as I understand it) provides you with their software free when you purchase a camera.  Nikon, on the other hand, charges nearly $200 for their premier software for working with the raw images.  They do provide a very basic raw convertor package, but it's painfully slow and noticeably lacking in features.

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Re: Canon T1i

FYI, many cameras that support DNG will also embed camera color profiles in

the DNG itself (e.g., recent Casio, Ricoh, and Pentax cameras). Adobe does

not need to create color profiles for such cameras. The profile simply

"comes with the DNG" so to speak.

Eric

But even to do that, Adobe has to be able to

create a profile for each specific camera. 

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Re: Canon T1i

genebromberg wrote:

I knew every company had it's own RAW format, just not that they were THAT opposed to others duplicating that format to provide ease of use.

Actually, every camera model is in effect its own raw file format which must be individually decoded by 3rd parties–and even the camera companies' own software updated to handle new cameras...which indeed is stooopid.

The fact is that the camera companies still delude themselves that the raw file format somehow has some sort of proprietary value. It doesn't...but they just don't believe that. They think their own raw file format, since they have to spend so much of their own resources developing them, must be worth keeping secret. But, the only real secret with regards to raw file formats is that there really aren't any secrets. Anything they can encode in a raw file format can be decoded by others–legally. It's not like Canon has a patent on their CR2 or Nikon on their NEF...both of who are derived from the ISO standard TIFF-EP (Electronic Photography) which is based on TIFF 6 which is owned by Adobe...and DNG is a further specified TIFF-EP spec.

The camera companies would be better served spending their time and money more wisely rather than wasting their resources making their own raw file formats...and with the downturn in the global economy it might make sense for them to re-evaluate DNG. Adobe has already submitted DNG to the ISO for the next update of TIFF-EP. So, if that happens, it'll remove one barrier the camera companies have been using against DNG...the fact that the spec is owned by Adobe.

And, the thing of it is, if they DID adopt DNG, it would eliminate this crap about waiting for software updates and make their own software support easier to implement.

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Re: Canon T1i

Adobe Community Professional , May 11, 2009

My brother had his hands on a retail copy of a T1i in Toronto over a week

ago, already.

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Re: Canon T1i

ssprengel wrote:

My brother had his hands on a retail copy of a T1i in Toronto over a week

ago, already.

Uh huh...and you expect Adobe to turn the update around how fast?

Give me a break...we're talking quarters here, not days or weeks...

You want Adobe to be able to support camera when they come out? Talk to Nikon and Canon...

Jeeesh...aren't you paying attention?

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Re: Canon T1i

Adobe Community Professional , May 11, 2009

In defense of why Adobe had not released support, yet, someone said Adobe

didn't have one, yet. I merely said they are available, now. I agree

Canon should have given you one long ago, but now that they're out, Adobe

still not having one seems wrong if that was the insider information being

communicated.

"Quarters" (plural) suggests more than one 3-month period, with the minimum

being 2 quarters, or a 6-month turn around time. I guess I wouldn't have

thought it takes that long to profile a new sensor, compute the NR

coefficients for various ISOs, and beta test those things, especially with a

new camera model every 12 months or so, nowadays. Canon, themselves, has

chopped 6 months off their release cycle to keep up with the competition's

features, so a camera was probably not available for them to give 6 months

ago.

How long does it actually take Adobe from receipt to being ready to release

support for a new model? I would expect that sometimes the main delay would

be syncing up with the next ACR or LR release that could have additional

features that would take quite a few months to code and test and re-test,

but adding a new camera model can't be that hard unless it is a completely

new sort of decoding algorithm or the manufacturer is requiring

lens-distortion or custom NR built-in.

People shouldn't be whining about not having support, immediately, if Adobe

had no access to the hardware, as if it's Adobe's fault, but expecting a

camera quarters in advance seems too demanding. I suppose Canon may have

been trying to help out the noise in the ISO128000 end of things right up

until the end so they may not have been able to give out anything for Adobe

until literally weeks ago when the camera was almost out, anyway.

Hopefully there isn't some war of words between Adobe/DNG and others/RAW

where each tries to bad-mouth the other than drag their feet to make things

bad for the other.

Personally, I am waiting for the 60D in the fall which Adobe would hopefully

support by a couple months afterwards.

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Re: Canon T1i

What you seem to be missing is a grasp of the concept that Adobe releases three to four versions of ACR per year in an orderly fashion.  Don't expect a new release just because a new camera is released to the market.  That will just not happen.

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Re: Canon T1i

If I fully understand what ACR does it does not seem that Adobe could use a pre-production model for their profiling. It must be a production model. If you read all of the pre-release reviews the reviewers are careful to say that they were reviewing a pre-production model and performance could change. I wouldn't expect Canon to have real production models until a few weeks before release.

I am a software developer. Even making small changes to an application as complex as ACR is a long process. Would you prefer to have a fully tested application or would you rather have buggy one, only to find out what the bugs are after you delete the original raw files? I don't delete my raw files but I will bet that some people do.

On the other hand, it doesn't seem like Adobe needs the physical camera to update ACR. It would seem that all they would need are a lot of raw files from a production camera. These could be supplied by Canon directly without sending a camera body.

Just my two cents

Steven

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Re: Canon T1i

These guys are just mad, and pouting because they can't have their way.  We go through this every time a "major" camera is released.  Go ahead and complain, tell Adobe how to run their business, and point fingers.  It won't do you much good.  The reality is you are just going to have to wait.

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Re: Canon T1i

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Re: Canon T1i

Another totally blank message, xbytor, courtesy of Jive Software.    

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Re: Canon T1i

Ramón G Castañeda wrote:

Another totally blank message, xbytor, courtesy of Jive Software.    

What was it Marshall McLuhan said?


And in this case the medium is cr@p!

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Re: Canon T1i

Sorry about that. I was replying under the influence of a couple of scotches and the feeble-ness of some jive-ass software.

Missing text is as follows.

JimHess wrote:
> These guys are just mad, and pouting because they can't have their way.  We go through this every time a "major" camera is released.  Go ahead and complain, tell Adobe how to run their business, and point fingers.  It won't do you much good.  The reality is you are just going to have to wait.


People also tend to forget that camera release schedules are in no way synchronized with Camera Raw release schedules. One possible solution is an ACR plugin interface so that camera vendors could provide at least basic support when the camera is released via the camera vendor's plugin. This could be used until the Camera Raw team can fold in proper support with their next release. The technical and political complexities tend to make me believe that this won't be happening.

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Re: Canon T1i

Blah, blah, blah.....

Three previous Rebel models, one 5D, one 40D and one Power Shot G9, all purchased shortly after the release in USA, and the Adobe RAW plug in was already waiting for download.

I have many strange observations about Adobe, and my general impression is that of growing arrogance and aggressive marketing, resembling another BIG software company, just wonder how many former Microsoft brains have joined Adobe in last few years.

Hope the outcome in the future will not be to pitiful.

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Re: Canon T1i

ogaaar wrote:

Blah, blah, blah.....

Three previous Rebel models, one 5D, one 40D and one Power Shot G9, all purchased shortly after the release in USA, and the Adobe RAW plug in was already waiting for download.

I have many strange observations about Adobe, and my general impression is that of growing arrogance and aggressive marketing, resembling another BIG software company, just wonder how many former Microsoft brains have joined Adobe in last few years.

Hope the outcome in the future will not be to pitiful.

Did you fail to read response #28 from Eric?  It is clear that for the models you reference Adobe had pre-release versions from Canon to use in creating new profiles.  For the camera in question, the Canon T1i, they did not.

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