Preview Button!!!!

New Here ,
Apr 11, 2014

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Hello, I am incredibly upset about the removal of the preview button in Camera Raw. It has completely interrupted my workflow. I don't mind the ADDITION of new features for those who make take advantage of them, but the REMOVAL of perfectly good features that many of us are used to using is asinine and if you can't tell I am rather upset about it. Please for the sake of god bring it back.

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Adobe Employee ,
Apr 18, 2014

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We're currently looking into a bug with the new Preview system in Camera Raw 8.4 when switching images in the filmstrip. This issue applies to CC applications only. We hope to have this resolved soon. Sorry about the inconvenience.

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Engaged ,
Apr 18, 2014

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Thanks for checking in, Max.

This isn't about switching images in a filmstrip. It's about the inability to examine changes in a specific panel, such as sharpness and noise, without reverting all the panels to the starting point.

I hope this is clear.

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Adobe Employee ,
Apr 22, 2014

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There is an ACR update 8.4.1 for CC available via Creative Could updater. If you haven’t received the CC update notification yet, try “Help>Updates…” from your CC application. This update includes a fix for a bug in the new Preview feature. The bug caused Camera Raw to forget the "Before" settings when switching images in the filmstrip, thereby preventing the Preview feature from working. Please give this fix a try, let us know what you observe by posting to this forum. Thank you.

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Participant ,
Apr 22, 2014

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Thanks, but... as Hudechrome already pointed out (in the post previous to yours), this isn't about images in a filmstrip.

Anyway, I installed the update and, not surprisingly, things are the same as before regarding this particular issue .

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Engaged ,
Apr 22, 2014

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Confirmed. 8.4.1 installed and behavior is as before.

Please note Michelle, we are speaking of the individual panel Before and now ACR shows the composite Before's, no matter what panel is visible. We can use Ctrl Z to go back one step, but with multiple steps in, say, (especially!) Detail, we would want to see the current settings changes against the default, as the back button used to do.

Please, please, bring it back! You can't believe how this "simple" change vastly complicates our work flow.

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Adobe Employee ,
Apr 22, 2014

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The new Preview feature was severely hobbled by the bug, making it almost impossible to understand when working with multiple images.

I understand that you miss the old feature, but once you're able to see how the new one works, you'll recognize that it's much more powerful.

The old preview button didn't give you any control of what it compared against; sometimes it was just the effects of the current panel against the work to that point, but sometimes it wasn't: the Basic panel would go back to the image settings, no matter what you had done on other panels. With the new "Save" button, you're in control of the "Before" state. Think of it as setting checkpoints as you work.

If you want to see the effects of just one panel, click the "Save" button (or press opt/alt+P) to store the current settings to the Before state before you start making edits in that panel. Now as you make changes to that panel, you can see only the changes you've made in that panel, just as before.

As you work through your edits, you can continue to update your Before state as you go, incrementally refining the image and comparing to each step - including in the Basic panel.

You can also easily compare against the image settings, the Camera Raw defaults, or a snapshot: store the current settings into the Before state, apply the state you want to compare against, and swap between them.

Once you've spent some time with this and see how you can control your Before state, I hope you'll find it as powerful and flexible as we designed it to be.

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Participant ,
Apr 22, 2014

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Finally! So there we have it: this is the intended behavior, not a bug. This was my main concern, since Julieanne Kost said "While in the standard single-view, tapping the “P” key will still hide/show settings for only the selected panel". So, either I misunderstood what she meant, or this sentence is misleading.

Although Max's insight on how to use this new feature is much appreciated, and indeed it enriches our workflow in many ways, I still think it's too convoluted when it comes to isolating changes from one specific panel, something that we did very easily before.

Anyway, even if I'm sorry for the other people, I don't really care that much, since I'm a Lightroom user more than an ACR one. Which still makes me ask why ACR is departing from LR, since LR 5.4 still has the individual preview checkbox for each panel (on/off switch). In fact, LR also allows for these before/after views via the History panel and the "Y" shortcut, something that has now been partially built in into ACR 5.4, albeit at the expense of the aforementioned preview checkbox. Doesn't seem to make much sense, if you ask me - or maybe you plan on adding on/off switches to individual panels in ACR in the future? That would be cool.

Anyway, all of the above is just my humble opinion and I'm trying to be constructive. Again, thanks for your clarification.

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Explorer ,
Apr 22, 2014

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Max,

Thanks for the update 8.4.1 but I am afraid the update does not resolve the problem.   I rarely use ACR to develop multiple images.   The vast majority of my work is with single images.   Initially, I converted my raw image in ACR and then developed it in Photoshop.   But some time ago, as ACR became increasingly powerful, I decided to undertake all the development work in ACR and now I usually use Photoshop just for  output sharpening.   I do not think that I am alone in this approach.    For me, the issue  relates to the ability to review the developmental changes that I have made within each ACR Panel.    This is important to me and I do not find it acceptable first to save a preliminary Panel in order subsequently to review the current one; this is frustrating, cumbersome and inefficient.    Please re-instate the previous "Preview" facility which did an excellent job.

All best wishes

Thom.

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Engaged ,
Apr 22, 2014

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Hmmm, it actually doesn't work as stated. There is no Save button, but rather "Copy Current Settings to Before." If you don't pick correctly you wind up confused.

I have never experienced the problems you say existed in the legacy swap feature. It always worked as I expect. You now add an extra step, and if you foul up, the only recourse is to go to ACR defaults blowing all your settings.

No, I want the simple, before/after button we had before. Yes it may be powerful for some, but a drag for others. After 15 years with Photoshop, I am weary of cumbersome learning curves for simple to complex operational changes. (I still don't like the way Crop works in Photoshop, and I rarely use it in ACR).

If I am out in left field, perhaps there are others and therefore suggest a tutorial be provided when abandoning simple ways for complex ones so that those of us that only want the simple legacy can have it. I see it in the Brightness Contrast Adjustment Layer, so I know it's possible. At the very least, it gives us a fighting chance to go back when we are under the gun editing. Some of us actually bill for out time. I had to sharpen in PS only for the last job I did.

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Engaged ,
Apr 22, 2014

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"As you work through your edits, you can continue to update...."

This looks like ACR is capturing some sort of History states, but without the History Panel. If so, completeting the changes by providing History states, negotiating as we do in PS, would be a positive step. This looks more like some interim move, not appreciated by moi anyway.

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LEGEND ,
Apr 22, 2014

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Hudechrome wrote:

No, I want the simple, before/after button we had before.

And, I'm pretty sure that ship has sailed...(and won't be coming back). I suggest you adapt your workflow to actualy use the Before/After capability.

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Engaged ,
Apr 22, 2014

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I didn't address my comments to you. Butt out!

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LEGEND ,
Apr 22, 2014

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Hudechrome wrote:

I didn't address my comments to you. Butt out!

Uh huh...and what does that comment bring to the party?

Little to nothing...again, that ship has sailed. Move on bud.

The former preview button won't be returning (and those of us who appreciate the additional power and flexibility that Before/After provides aren't too concerned).

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LEGEND ,
Apr 22, 2014

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Carlos (Photoshopeando) wrote:

Which still makes me ask why ACR is departing from LR, since LR 5.4 still has the individual preview checkbox for each panel (on/off switch).

Just to be clear, the processing pipeline between ACR and LR are indeed matched between versions. The UI and usability tend to be slightly different. LR is an application, ACR is a plug-in. There is bound to be usability differences. As it stands now, there are things in ACR 8.4 that LR 5.4 can't do and visa versa.

LR tends to leverage new functionality in the processing pipeline that ACR introduces...but because of the way LR has been developed, the UI and usability will never be identical, just similar.

The bottom line is, use whatever tool matches your needs. For me, most of what I need to do I do in LR. Sometimes I'll move to ACR for certain functions (like the ability to change output spaces) while other times, LR's history is really useful. I really don't care that much where I do what.

But I must say that if your entire workflow is dependent on toggling the Preview button on/off, I really have to question how you are doing raw processing. This ain't a hill I would be willing to die on...I tend to use Snapshots when I'm trying to decide over one or the other outcomes. And, I'm pretty good at raw processing...written a couple of books on the subject ya know?

But, I have it on good authority that the old Preview functionality is gone and won't return. You can jump up and down and scream bloody murder and that won't change anything. It is what it is...deal with it and move on...

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Engaged ,
Apr 22, 2014

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I did more work on this new process and while it does offer certain options not available before, I conclude it is now an interdependent workflow whereas the earlier version was independent.

Example:

Open a file, go to a panel say Details. and set the Before. Make changes, then go to say Basic. Set Before. Make changes. Now go back to Details and do before/after. You get both Panels simultaneously. This is totally beyond a simple "adjust your workflow".

I'll adjust it all right. Adjust it to DxO, use certain Presets for B&W which only ACR can do and leave the rest alone. DxO still does a way better sharpen and noise control than ACR. It's a math solution , not an eyeball solution. Unfortunately, DxO and PS do not play well together when open and minimized so I was drifting back to ACR, especially for my D7100 images. Now, I'll be looking the other way.

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Participant ,
Apr 23, 2014

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Jeff, thanks for your answer and your insight - I know who you are and I highly value your knowledge.

My workflow is not dependent on absolutely nothing specific, or at least I try it not to be so. This is technology and I know everything is bound to change sooner or later, so as far as things work in a predictable and effective way, I'm good (my real PS problems are others, like this one). But I'm sure you'll also understand that old habits die hard, and the old preview checkbox had been around for quite a while, so it's only natural that our workflows have somehow developed according to it.

While I must agree that there are many reasons why Lightroom exists, and one of them is  -not by chance- a more complete user interface, I still think that the functionality of the old preview checkbox could have been preserved in some way. But I'm not screaming bloody murder or anything like that, I was just trying to make sure I've understood the way things work now. Thanks for your help.

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Community Beginner ,
Apr 25, 2014

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max.wendt wrote:

The old preview button didn't give you any control of what it compared against; sometimes it was just the effects of the current panel against the work to that point, but sometimes it wasn't: the Basic panel would go back to the image settings, no matter what you had done on other panels. With the new "Save" button, you're in control of the "Before" state. Think of it as setting checkpoints as you work.

I think the old way was pretty logical, preview was per panel and if I wanted to see before/after of all the changes and panels combined I could go to the presets panel and there the preview would compare the actual settings to the last saved state of the file.

max.wendt wrote:

If you want to see the effects of just one panel, click the "Save" button (or press opt/alt+P) to store the current settings to the Before state before you start making edits in that panel. Now as you make changes to that panel, you can see only the changes you've made in that panel, just as before.

So to get the same functionality than before I have to press Alt-P everytime I go to a new panel and before making changes there? How is that supposed to be better than before? I can see that there is more control over what I am comparing against but for hundreds of images that is a big inconvenience. There has to be a better way to keep the new functionality but also add a per panel toggle.

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Community Beginner ,
May 17, 2014

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I have 8.4.1. Nothing is changed. So say I have a dark area that needs to be lightened in the shadows. Say that area is noisy. Now when I go to the sharpen panel and hit 'p' or before, it reverts to the dark version, where I can't see crap. Before, each panel's 'before' only reverted to what you had done in that panel. In other words, the exposure correction I had made in basic was retained so I could see if the noise correction was enough. Now you can't see anything. I've checked to see if there is a further update and there is not.

I am so very tired of this incredibly expensive program adding updates that screw us up totally. It's just a repeat of the whole regeneration issue which took years to resolve.

Exactly what is now being done about this. At the moment, RAW is virtually useless for me in many crucial circumstances.

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Community Beginner ,
May 17, 2014

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Someone suggested adding a fourth control that will allow us to do what we had done before...backtrack changes in an individual panel. I've been playing with ctrl-Z in individual panels and this seems to let me do what I could do with a single click before...see just the change I've made in that panel. Am I getting this right? It's a pain but a work-around that is okay for me.  Another question...I seem to not be able to find a way to get emails to replies in this discussion. I thought there was something on the left but now can't find it. SIGH.

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Community Beginner ,
Apr 23, 2014

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I aggree.

the new "swap before after" feature is totaly confusing

do some changes to an image

press p

if you accidently press ctrl + z and press p

you'll don't know what you're viewing.

and the YY (cycles between) makes acr workflow VERY VERY SLOW

so if you want to make ACR to look like lightroom, put an ON/OFF switch to each tab or just bring the preview button back

the snanpshots is not a solution

instead of one click to the old preview now you make 4 clicks

1 snapshots -> 2 new snapshot -> 3 name the snaphot -> ok.

nahhh

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Engaged ,
Apr 23, 2014

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Thanks for posting.

Notice there is no "Staff" flag accompanying Mr. Schewe's name. He is not an employee but has the temerity to come here and act as if he does. We have tangled in the past over this issue and still he persists in playing "Bad Cop" or similar. It doesn't work for me.

I do appreciate his books and writings and have learned from them especially at the onset of ACR. That does not excuse his boorishness and his preempting the Staff person's reply to whom I addressed my concerns.

As you can see, Mr Schewe, our findings are quite similar. We have a point and contrary to your assertion that there is nothing we can do, there is. One is rollback. If rollback cannot be accomplished for CC, then the alternate is to move back to CS6,and ignore ACR updates. Also, making use of LR (which is on this computer) and again, not updating.

Imagine, one day you come home to find that the electrician has been there, and now where you had one switch to turn the lights on and off, there are three, and no instructions. One says before after, nothing happens, but by messing combinations of the three, you finally succeed in making something happen. But in the middle of all this you no longer can even turn the lights off nor is there any backtracking. Your only recourse is to find the breaker panel, switch it off and on and the system resets. But you still cannot simply turn your lights on and off from the new great system!

That in a nutshell is what we have here.

Software needs to be transparent. I also believe it should be invisible, that is it does not assert itself in the process unless you are doing something which can compromise operations (like deleting a .dll unknowingly). It will probably be a cold day in hades before we see that, but I can dream! But transparency is doable.

Finally, respect for the people who come here to address their concerns and share their experiences and help cannot be an option. That seems to be not even an option.

Mr. Schewe is welcome and encouraged to offer his  considerable expertise which I understand and is also true of all of us, is done with no compensation other than satisfaction in helping. Let's play nice!

Thank you

Lawrence

Message was edited by: Hudechrome

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LEGEND ,
Apr 23, 2014

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Hudechrome wrote:

Mr. Schewe is welcome and encouraged to offer his  considerable expertise which I understand and is also true of all of us, is done with no compensation other than satisfaction in helping. Let's play nice!

Hum...first you sling some mud around and then you say play nice? That's delicious irony...

No, I'm not an employee of Adobe, but I do actually work with the ACR & LR engineers developing and testing the products. So, when I say the Preview Button is gone, it's because I've had an email exchange with the ACR engineers that's what they told me.

So, whether you like it or not, you may as well take the time to learn how to use Before/After or not. No skin off my nose because personally, I never used it. I use snapshots. Which if you use the keyboard short cut (Command/Shift S) allows for the creation of a new snapshot from any panel. All you have to do is type in the name & hit return.

The advanteges of snapshots over the Preview button is you get to name the snapshot and the snapshot is stored in the xmp metadata so you can close out the image and recall it at any future time.

Snapshots and Before/After are vastly more powerful than the old (and now gone) Preview button...

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Engaged ,
Apr 23, 2014

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I give as I receive Jeff. Starting off with a note of respect instead of "the ship has sailed" or such would not have incurred my response.

I have learned it and written my findings. It is an extended first look of course, but as you can see from even Max Wendt, we are not on the same page as to the best solution to the dilemma.

I pay $600/yr/seat  for the right to use the software and obtain the updates/upgrades. I run LR, PS and Audition. My preference still lies with PS, mostly because it is what I have been using since before the turn of the millenia. As such I am on an equal footing with anyone here as to the degree of consideration for my POV and criticism.

As to snapshots, you have recommended them in the past to a query I had and it did work, although slowing down more than I wished to do for general use. Now it's general use. Rather, if the Preview is actually gone then a history pallet would be a better choice, at least for me.

Finally, it doesn't have to be gone. Just roll back to the earlier version. CS6 covers the D7100, and would be a last resort option. Of course, I'll continue to evaluate the new triple button version and will report back any findings and hopefully, some easing of the increased workload presented by the process.

It has merit. As with Snapshots, I prefer that it be a choice.

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Community Beginner ,
Apr 23, 2014

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I too miss the preview button dearly but I am trying to get used to the new before/after and Alt-P - by the way, Alt-P is not a great shortcut on german keyboards since there is only the left Alt key, I actually mapped AltGr to function as Alt).

The other thing I noticed is that pressing P with a gradient crashes Bridge every time - anyone else noticed this? (ACR 8.4, Bridge CC, Windows 8.1 64bit)

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Engaged ,
Apr 23, 2014

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I don't understand what you are doing with Gradient. I don't see it in ACR or Bridge, only PS, and would not expect to in Bridge.

What are your steps?

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Community Beginner ,
Apr 23, 2014

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I mean the Graduated Filter - if it is active and I press P - Bridge including ACR crashes...

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Adobe Employee ,
Apr 23, 2014

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There's no need to make a named snapshot for this - just save your Before state at any point that you want to compare.

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Engaged ,
Apr 23, 2014

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Max, please see my post #28. It becomes confusing as the process continues.

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Community Beginner ,
Apr 27, 2014

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Sorry, I can not agree at all with the solutions proposed to replace the box on / off display of each panel ....

What you said is true for most cameras , but is not valid for cameras with sensors without low-pass filter (Nikon D800E and 7100 , Pentax K5 and K3 IIs , etc ...) , since in this case the right approach depends entirely it is possible to disable the display panel detail . No good with making a before / after for that setting , as setting before being transferred does not include the deactivation of the box and therefore contains settings - default - involving incorrect display .

I mean, in this type of sensors, if I expand the image at 100 % or more - as it should be to check focus and noise reduction correctly - and disable the box preview , see the image with a certain degree of sharpness. If activated with default values ​​, we find that significantly blurs the image . To get the original degree of focus of the image , the one with the box unchecked - equivalent to that we did not give any approach - you have to put a value on "Quantity" value of around 100 - depends on camera , in this case typical value found for the Pentax K5 IIs - with a "Radio" between 1.1 and 1.3 - while the default value is 1.0 - and a " detail " from 25 ( default) . The value of the mask and noise reduction depend on the iso employee ...

Well, with these values ​​- 100 , 1.2 and 25 - if we alternate between activation and deactivation of the box , check that the image is the same in both cases. This has nothing to do with what happens if we put the values ​​of the Detail panel for the approach to 0 and activate and deactivate the display .... In this second case , we will check as activated image display and the values ​​to 0 is much more blurred the image box display off (very noticeable in this case). Even with the default settings , with the display off the image is much sharper .... Therefore, the only way to know how much we are giving focus is to deactivate and activate the display , not copy settings before as a benchmark , since that would visuaización which corresponds to the default values ​​- or those of 0 if we put a 0 as a reference - and as just discussed , not really correspond to the image as it is in reality (no display panel). 

So, effectively , is an incorrect modification for certain cameras which is a serious drawback when adjusting to acutance image ..... Although Mr Shiui disagree ..... Sure, in Lr there is not such problem ...... like who does not have it working with this type of sensors .... 

Lords of Adobe , please add the ability to disable the display of the panel - in other panels is much less important because the copy function values ​​after a Before serve perfectly - for those who work with sensors unfiltered AA they can do things properly and easily ( I used to give us a valid solution as simple as activating and deactivating the preview box .....) . Otherwise, with the current system, and complicated work, we are wasting our image quality RAWs . 

I beg your pardon me for my bad English , I hope you will understand what that comment ....

Regards

PS: By the way....(I´m a rude, i beg uour pardon....), updating and new ACR functions, including functions Before/After, etc., seems to me a breakthrough, no doub....., but where this does not entail the disappearance of the box to enable/disable the display panel Detail....

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LEGEND ,
Apr 27, 2014

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Lidenbrook wrote:

So, effectively , is an incorrect modification for certain cameras which is a serious drawback when adjusting to acutance image ..... Although Mr Shiui disagree ..... Sure, in Lr there is not such problem ...... like who does not have it working with this type of sensors .... 

Are you referring to me? My name ain't Shiui, it's Schewe...if you weren't referring to me, never mind :~)

You can easily turn off all sharpening in ACR by adjusting the amount to 0. With zero sharpening, none of the other settings have any impact. So, if you want a binary on/off, adjust the settings that you want and set that to the After setting and then turn the amount to 0 for the before.

Even simplier, make your adjustments and at the last step set amount to 0 and then simply undo. That way you have and easy method of seeing sharpening on and off.

In any event, the Preview button per panel is gone. Sorry, you'll need to modify the way you work.

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Engaged ,
Apr 27, 2014

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"Even simpler, make your adjustments and at the last step set amount to 0 and then simply undo. That way you have and easy method of seeing sharpening on and off."

My fallback as well.

Nothing is written in stone so for the moment, the switch is missing but "The squeaky wheel gets the grease" and we definitely have a squeaky wheel here.

The entire neighborhood hears it!

The other recourse is to do sharpening with a professional sharpening tool that have the algorithms for lens and sensors preloaded. No guessing and if one likes it "sharper" that can also be arranged with available tools.

Message was edited by: Hudechrome

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LEGEND ,
Apr 27, 2014

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Hudechrome wrote:

Nothing is written in stone so for the moment, the switch is missing but "The squeaky wheel gets the grease" and we definitely have a squeaky wheel here.

Well...if I were at liberty to show you an email exchange I had with certain ACR engineers, you might realize that the stone has indeed been written.

So far, the relative lack of understanding of how to use Before/After and Snapshots hasn't reached the level of traction needed to rewrite the stone. Yes, I pointed out LR's ability to turn on/off a panel's preview. Yes, I pointed out that some users were dependent upon the old way of using the per panel Preview. Sorry to say, those discussion got nowhere..

Look, I'm not unsympathetic to those users who grew to rely upon the old behavior...but what I'm trying to get across is that there is some pretty strong resistance to undoing the effort that was required to do Before/After and reintroduce the old per panel preview behavior.

So, do you really want to swim upstream against impossible odds? Go right ahead…just know that the odds of getting anywhere are somewhere between zero and no way…

Kinda like when I said that ship has sailed…I wasn't trying to be an a'hole, I was trying to get the point across that after due consideration, the old preview button behavior is dead...

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Engaged ,
Apr 27, 2014

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Well, if this was a court of law and not opinion, what your testimony would amount to is hearsay, especially when the staff person did not back it up.

I fail to understand (other than ego) why "No" should be cast in stone.

Ego plays a big role in photography, but in software?

At any rate, I'll search for my best solution. Yours are workable but only as workarounds other than using 8.4.1.200 to it's particular advantage. Which is considerable on it's own merits.

I said it before: In using before and after in sharpening amounts to a test procedure and any valid test procedure involves holding all parameters constant except for the one you are testing. I've done this for well over 50 years (approaching 57, to be exact) from my beginnings (and the most rigorous, at Argonne National Labs) to the present. It has never failed me whereas relaxing that standard has failed me, at times seriously. My only two paths at the moment is to rely on basic filtering at DxO and/or minimizing the impact of all the other changes that can couple into Before/Afters in the current ACR.

Or, abandon Bridge/ACR and go completely to Lightroom.

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LEGEND ,
Apr 27, 2014

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Hudechrome wrote:

Well, if this was a court of law and not opinion, what your testimony would amount to is hearsay, especially when the staff person did not back it up.

So, consider it hearsay that Thomas said no...

Hudechrome wrote:

Ego plays a big role in photography, but in software?

Well, when the "ego" in question created this whole digital imaging thingie, it's hard to argue against it...

Look, Thoams said no...and there are techical reasons that doing what people are asking for–meaning the "Preview button" isn't easy and why what LR does is, well problimatic.

Thomas has chosen not to respond, so my take is, Thomas doesn't care...Max tried to offer a work around...then quit posting. So, you are down to talking to me. Sorry...that's the way it is.

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Community Beginner ,
Apr 27, 2014

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First of all , my sincere thanks for your quick reply . 

Secondly, I beg your pardon for my dullness, it was a simple typo caused by the rush to write quickly to a stranger language I do not master enough. Simply, I made the mistake of writing your name as pronounced in my language. I'm so sorry, I beg your pardon, will not happen again .....

As for the topic at hand is concerned, the solutions you propose - I thank you sincerely , despite being something quite obvious - do not clarify what I raised in my previous answer about the approach of RAWs from sensors without low pass filter. 

As I mentioned before, in previous versions of ACR ( CS 6 , ACR 8.0 .... ) when the preview box is unchecked, the image is sharper than when the box checked and the panel settings to 0. To to see the image as seen with the box off, it is necessary - for PEF and DNG RAW files from a Pentax K5 IIs , for example - to about 100 in "Quantity" , between 1.1 and 1.3 in " Radio " and the rest , with the values displayed by default ( as I described in the aforementioned response).

Can you explain what is due this? How I can see that today is not the same ? .... 

In fact, the checks I've done in ACR 8.4 with the Detail panel settings to O (or the value of "Quantity " to 0 and the rest as is default), the image is not as it really is without applying approach, it is rather more blurred than it must be , being a sensor without low-pass filter (I'm already well accustomed to the level of acutance of these sensors to know that the source image , without applying any approach, is not as blurred as it appears when set “Amount” to 0, as you propose as a starting .....) .

For now, the sum of the particular ignorance of the cause for which the image is sharper in ACR 8.0 with box preview off, that with it on and with the values 0 (although I have a rough idea of what you can be because ..... , misinterpretation of the values of these RAWs in ACR , using a "generic" algorithm for demosaicing , so to speak ..... most likely .... ) and the lack information on whether this phenomenon persists - I mean the blur image of this type of RAWs with values 0 Quantity - , as well as the inability to prove it in the program itself - due to the lack of possibility to disable the display panel detail - ,  make the real possibility of losing quality images - setting acutance and noise reduction - due to lack of real reference, and can be very simply due to the elimination of the possibility of deactivation of the preview setting panel.

Obviously , to this fact there is always the possibility of changing the workflow and make settings for noise reduction approach and a dedicated external program , but in my humble opinion, an update of a program - and more of a development program RAW ACR as is - should be an improvement in the workflow , not a hindrance . 

I am convinced that the improvements aprta the new version are helpful and certainly appreciated the hard work done , but both are not known with certainty behavior demosicing in cases of raw from sensors such as those I am referring , the porpuestas solutions so far - which undoubtedly appreciate , despite being obvious as I said - do not solve the problem.

I agree that this should be ...., should be sufficient to return to 0 setting to see the reference - and then break - but the truth is that it is not, the behavior of the program with these probes are fits that approach.... 

Again , we greatly appreciate your patience , cooperation and your understanding , and please let me apologize for the error in writing your name. 

Thank you very much and kind regards

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Engaged ,
Apr 27, 2014

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"Thomas doesn't care"...

Ok, now we are getting somewhere.

But then, saying "I don't care" can also mean "Do what you want". That's always my take on it. I hear that and I take control.

I care. I care about my work. I employ the best tools and procedures and I apply them according to the best standards and practices available to the best of my ability. My loyalty is to these principles.

Tell Thomas that.

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LEGEND ,
Apr 27, 2014

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Lidenbrook wrote:

Again , we greatly appreciate your patience , cooperation and your understanding , and please let me apologize for the error in writing your name. 

No worries mate (that's Australian for don't worry about it!)

My only goal here is to help and explain that the old behavior is gone and offer some tips to overcome the new workflow.

I don't disagree that the old way was simple...it was a binary on/off. But that's gone now. So, what do you want to do? Adapt and adopt or dwell on what was (and now no longer isn't)?

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LEGEND ,
Apr 27, 2014

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Hudechrome wrote:

I care. I care about my work. I employ the best tools and procedures and I apply them according to the best standards and practices available to the best of my ability. My loyalty is to these principles.

Tell Thomas that.

And don't presume for a moment that Thomas doesn't care...if he didn't, he wouldn't have written Camera Raw in the first place.

Also don't presume I don't care...I do care about image quality...

I do, perhaps more than most people. However, I tend to get far less locked into "how" to do something than arriving at an optimal result (which I do care about–as does Thomas). I really don't care how I arrive at an image's optimal settings...

Do you honestly think that you can no no longer arrive at the optimal image adjustment settings because of these changes? Or, are you just disturbed that how you do it has been changed?

I'm pretty good at adjusting raw image settings...the new changes to the Before/After seem to be an advancement rather than a step back, So, considering I kinda know a thing or two, what do I know that you don't know?

I'm happy to advance how people use ACR & LR...I've tried to do so in this thread. But if you are complaining simply because of change, well, I'm less sensitive to that than making a case that you can't use the new functionality to accomplish what you need to accomplish. So far, that case hasn't been made...

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Engaged ,
Apr 28, 2014

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"so my take is, Thomas doesn't care."

Those were your words, not mine. I was rather nonplussed at first, so I re-read it. Then responded.

To reduce my responses to simply complaining is beyond the pale. I have made my case using classic testing procedures, developed before you and I were even born.

To strengthen it, I go to Occam's Razor.

"It states that among competing hypotheses, the one with the fewest assumptions should be selected. Other, more complicated solutions may ultimately prove correct, but—in the absence of certainty—the fewer assumptions that are made, the better."

No assumptions need making with simple on/off. DxO understands that perfectly. Each and every panel has an on/off switch.

Do you honestly think that you can no no longer arrive at the optimal image adjustment settings because of these changes? Or, are you just disturbed that how you do it has been changed?

I cannot be sure that I have arrived there if I am denied simple access to an on-off for a specific panel, especially one that is the most technically sophisticated as sharpness/resolution/noise. There is no certainty. If I see the digital equivalent of Mackie Lines at transitions which change as a function of some control other than sharpness (which happens), what am I to do? Muck around?

Since I started using digital processing, this became front and center. Yes, I can go through some gyrations to come back to a point which appears I am back at the simple on-off, but if there is any lingering doubt about what I am seeing and what to do about it I am rather loathe to sign the result.

Look at DxO. There is a separate switch for sharpness, and noise. In ACR, noise and sharpness is coupled together. We already had a form of coupling two parameters together. I was completely relieved that DxO provides me with a correction for both that is separate and based on algorithms, not eyeballs, with on/off. Yep, I can and have used the eyeball method, not only for the subject under consideration but screen calibration as well. Remember that? Calibration by extinguishment. We left that ASAP. It wasn't a simple solution. There was no certainty.

Ultimately, it's an art, and as such, we move beyond objectivity. I know that and use it in ways you do not know I do. Maybe you do also. I don't know.

Message was edited by: Hudechrome

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LEGEND ,
Apr 28, 2014

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Hudechrome wrote:

"so my take is, Thomas doesn't care."

Those were your words, not mine. I was rather nonplussed at first, so I re-read it. Then responded.

What I said was, I don't think Thomas cares what YOU think...sorry to be blunt, but in the grand scheme of things, I suspect that the engineers don't listen too much to individual complaints when trying to do the right thing, overall.

I still think your use case is weak...there are indeed ways or accomplishing what you say you want to do without the Preview button. And, those new functions are vastly more powerful and capable compared to what you claim to have lost.

Sorry doode...but what you seem to be doing is crying over spilt milk...can you do what you need to do with ACR 8.3 that you can't do with ACR 8.4?

I would argue that you can...and yes, it may be a bit more inconvenient but that's not really a major concern to me...ACR 8.4 is an advance over 8.3. If you don't agree, then you can keep twisting in the wind, or you can learn how to do what you need and move on. Or not.  You are perfectly welcome to use DxO rather than ACR...your choice. No skin off my nose...

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Engaged ,
Apr 28, 2014

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Please go back and look at what you said. It does not read " What I said was, I don't think Thomas cares what YOU think."

I would like him to show up and say it, not send his mouthpiece.

As for the rest of your last post, first, I am not making the case to you. You are the conduit, not the destination. If this were private communication, it would have ended long ago. Your type appeared in "Alice in Wonderland", known as the Red Queen. Now she was nastier for sure, and for both of you, it didn't matter what anyone else said. It never does. That's why I would have ended it earlier.

I am making a case from strong engineering principles. I've been doing it for years, and many times, like here, it is an uphill battle. I don't care if you think it's weak or strong. I don't have to make a case for you nor is this for you. I noted a staff person entered the conversation, indicating they are reading this. It's for staff, and if strong engineering principles don't matter, well that's that.

I'll leave it at this. Good enough doesn't cut it. Especially when good enough replaces excellent, as it does here. And by the way, where did I say replace the new with the old? To the engineers I say keep the new. It does certain jobs better, I know that. Keep it and give us the original option as well.

Ok, I'm done.

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Adobe Employee ,
Apr 28, 2014

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I haven't left you guys... I just had a bit of a busy weekend. I'm still here.

Hudechrome, you wrote:

"In ACR, noise and sharpness is coupled together. We already had a form of coupling two parameters together."

The ability to decouple these is precisely one of the strengths of the new Preview system. YOU get to decide exactly what you're previewing against. The principle of looking at just one set of changes against a checkpoint is something I value very much, too.

So aside from the half second it takes to click an onscreen button (or use a keyboard shortcut) to explicitly set the state you want to compare your adjustments against, I'm not seeing what functionality has been lost. In the case you mention, you've actually gained functionality: you can now preview noise and sharpness changes independently.

I totally understand your desire to do very targeted comparisons; that's how I work. I would never intentionally destroy that workflow (and don't think I have).

What I'm not understanding is what you're missing. Yes, you do have to take a moment to set your before state, but that seems like a small price to pay for much more power and flexibility. Once you're accustomed to it, it becomes second nature.

Is there something more that I'm not seeing?

Thanks!

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Engaged ,
Apr 28, 2014

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Thanks Max. I hadn't considering decoupling noise and sharpening, but it makes sense. Perhaps I am complicating the process.

This is what I see I have to do to see these separately.

1) Set Before

2) Make, say, the sharpening change

3) Do before After.

Ok I want to now do just noise. As I see it, I would then have to go to:

4) Basic>RAW Defaults

5) Set Before

6) Make the noise Change

7) Do before and after.

Now, suppose I want to collect both together as a final setting I will incorporate as I move through other corrections. Here's where it gets less transparent. What happens with each new decision to set a Before state to these settings within the edit process? It is far from clear as to what I can expect and much experimenting will be required, imo anyway. It feels like there is a "Gotcha" lingering here.

(Maybe I'm just dense!)

Belaboring the difference between DxO and ACR, here's the same process there. (I'll bypass the Auto feature which runs the camera/lens profile)

1) Go to Noise Panel. Move the noise slider. The Toggle button lights "on" and the software runs your selection.

2) Go to Sharpening Panel. Move the slider and the Toggle button lights "on" and the software runs your selection.

3) Click either button to go back to default.

Leave them in either state, run each of the other panels and combine at your heart's desire.

The answer for ACR seems to be practice, practice, practice. Which I would only have to do if I need the power. I'm not adverse to that, I'm adverse to having to do that just to get back to where I was before in past versions. I suppose I could go back one version and stay there.

What would be most helpful is a tutorial running a set of adjustments in combination taking full advantage of the new while highlighting seeing certain operations in isolation.

At least, that's where I am at the moment.

Thanks for your help, Max.

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Community Beginner ,
Apr 28, 2014

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max.wendt wrote:

So aside from the half second it takes to click an onscreen button (or use a keyboard shortcut) to explicitly set the state you want to compare your adjustments against, I'm not seeing what functionality has been lost.

Working on a few photos that might be true, but I routinely go through hundreds of photos and using the panel preview was second nature to me. Now I have to remember to press ALT-P before making any changes in a new panel and thats a major inconvenience. Its so inconvenient in fact that my workflow probably will change to just comparing to the global before only without quick checks per panel as I did before. Even something like setting the before state automatically on every change to a new panel would be preferable to the new full manual mode.

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Adobe Employee ,
Apr 28, 2014

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Hudechrome wrote:

This is what I see I have to do to see these separately.

1) Set Before

2) Make, say, the sharpening change

3) Do before After.

Ok I want to now do just noise. As I see it, I would then have to go to:

4) Basic>RAW Defaults

5) Set Before

6) Make the noise Change

7) Do before and after.

I didn't mean that you'd decouple them in the sense that you'd go back to the defaults in between making your edits, just that you're now able to preview just the effects of one or the other. Before, you could only see them as a set. Now you can:

  • set Before
  • do your sharpening
  • A/B the results of just sharpening

Once you're happy with your sharpening work, you can move on to noise:

  • set Before
  • do your noise reduction
  • A/B the results of just noise reduction

Here's where the advantage comes in: as you're comparing the effects of your noise work, you don't have your sharpening work going away on you. When you swap, you're seeing only the noise reduction changes.

Hudechrome wrote:

Now, suppose I want to collect both together as a final setting I will incorporate as I move through other corrections. Here's where it gets less transparent. What happens with each new decision to set a Before state to these settings within the edit process?

Think of the Before state as kind of an internal Snapshot. It's not actually, but that may be the easiest way to conceptualize this. When you save your Before state, your current settings are copied into it. So your current sharpening and noise values are stored into the Before state just as they are.

I tend to think of saving Before states as "checkpoints" - when I'm happy with what I've got so far, I hit the keyboard shortcut to save my Before state. Now I can move on to the next thing, and A/B it against what I've done to that point.

Often, in the course of editing, I want to go back and revisit some of my earlier decisions; for example, let's say a local white balance adjustment is making me rethink my global white balance. I've got a checkpoint that includes everything I've done up to that point, including some global exposure changes. With the new Preview feature, I can A/B that against my new tweaks to the global white balance, without losing the preview of all the other work I've done in the Basic panel.

If you were working with this scenario using the old Preview checkbox, trying to preview the changes to the global white balance would also force you to try to see through all the other adjustments you'd made since you started working on the image. Depending on the image and/or the editing, that could have been substantial. Now, you can do that very targeted global white balance comparison while keeping all the other adjustments as they currently are.

IMO, that's a huge improvement over the old system.

And, of course, if you do want to A/B against how the image looked when you opened it (which I do also find useful), you can do that, too... see my earlier reply.

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Participant ,
Apr 28, 2014

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I would like to know if Lidenbrook's findings are correct - I think he is saying that on Pentax cameras without an optical low pass filter, the image appears more blurry with the preview for the detail panel checked that unchecked, even if the sharpening amount is set to zero - in other words, it would mean that in these cases, the mere fact of previewing sharpening, even if none is being really applied, causes some blurriness in the image (unless the difference is being caused by the default color noise reduction of 25... although I don't think that's enough to blur an image).

Please note that I don't own a Pentax, I'm a Canon shooter but I teach Photoshop and Lightroom (and I run a PS/LR blog) and I have to deal with people that own any possible camera brand, so I'd like to be prepared in advance should weird things like this really happen. I've downloaded a sample Pentax K5 IIs raw file from this page and truth is I couldn't replicate Lidenbrook's results, but he seems to be knoledgeable about Pentax sensors, and I know sensors like the Fuji X-Trans (without AA filter) had some issues with ACR's demosaicing in the past - well, I believe it was not really due to the lack of an AA filter but caused by their peculiar "not Bayer" color filter array. But, like I was saying, now I'm wondering if ACR sharpening algorithms could really worsen images from certain sensors even when amount=0.

---

Back on topic, as I already said, I'm not really too worried about the removal of the preview checkbox since I use LR way more than ACR. In fact, most of the time I could be described as a (proud) Adobe fan boy. That being said and for the sake of honesty, I do think that, while the new system is indeed more powerful (Max is right, I always hated having to see sharpening and noise reduction coupled), maybe the extra power doesn't compensate for the extra waste of time and confusion that it introduces when being used for very simple tasks - in those cases, the preview box, instead, was quicker and unequivocal. I mean, a Swiss knife beats an ordinary knife hands down - it's much more functional! But if I go to a restaurant and they've replaced knife, fork and spoon for swiss knives... well, you get the idea. Of course the new feature is not as cumbersome as a mega-Swiss knife. It's just a graphic example. But let's not forget that we're not comparing a 5 clicks solution versus a 6 clicks solution: we're comparing a 1 click solution versus a more-than-one-click solution, and in the context of such a simple task, the marginal cost of every extra click is very high. Or at least, user perception of required effort tends to be more than proportional to the "nominal" increase.

Anyway, I think that the real root of the conflict here is not really the new feature, but the fact that maybe introducing the new before/after feature could have been done without removing the preview checkbox. Yes, the old preview checkbox can be simulated via the new "before/after", same as a Swiss knife can "simulate" a knife. But I think each of them meets different needs - LR has both of them (Before/After + on/off switches), so it might not be a totally crazy idea. Yes, yes, LR is not ACR, we already discussed that and I 100% agree, but then, why introduce something that looks like a striped-down LR feature (before/after without history) and remove something that was genuinely ACR-ish?

Please let me state again that this is just my opinion, my thoughts, my humble insight. And while I personally know some people that are deeply upset with the new system, it's also true that most of the photographers I've met lately seem to ignore this change, at least so far (this change is not present in ACR 8.4 for CS6, and I guess that's one of the reasons, since many people is sticking to CS6).

Anyway, enough time will have been wasted if Jeff or anyone at Adobe reads it, so no reply is needed - but still, I'd like to know if somebody could confirm or deny the sharpening issue with the Pentax raws and the old preview box. Thanks.

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Engaged ,
Apr 28, 2014

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Yes, what you posted  about noise and sharpening is what I said, so I understand that. Now, this is where I am losing understanding. Are you saying all susequent "Copy current Settings to Before" (Alt+P) are saved as you move along? I expected Befores as staying Befores (i.e. Defaults because that is my starting "Before"). If I want to save my sharpening I need to make it a new Before,(Alt+P) correct? Not "Done" to save it. (which always annoyed me because I then have to go Back to Bridge and open again) But then, if I want to look at noise with no sharpening applied, I need to reset sharpening to default, because it is now a new Before state and not the default. Before this, I would have to remember the Amount slider value, move it back to zero then play with noise. Finally reapply the Sharp slider to see them together. That is cumbersome but I don't see how the new system improves on it.

Also, I notice another factor. If one sets an adjustment to Set Before, then decide to Cancel and start over, the process no longer means Cancel in the sense now everything is at default. That's what Cancel has always meant to me, unless you click "Done" first. We need a Save button that acumulates settings as one moves along.

It looks to me to be a work in progress, and that's ok too, so long as I am aware of it so I can act accordingly.

I hope this makes sense! I see a few gray hairs sitting next to my keyboard!

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Engaged ,
Apr 28, 2014

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I have a D7100 so I ran a check. Now I don't have a lens which can be classed as the sharpest available especially for this test. With that caveat, I ran the test you ran on several images and found no change whatsoever moving from Basic to Detail, back and forth. Further, adding noise suppression value of 25 to the test revealed barely a ghost of a change, all at 200%. Moving the Sharpening Amount to 25, Radius 1.0, detail to 25  showed  maybe a cancellation of the noise shift, if that.

Perhaps it is a Pentax problem, but it isn't a D7100 problem with current optic.

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Community Beginner ,
Apr 28, 2014

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Carlos (Photoshopeando) escribió:

I would like to know if Lidenbrook's findings are correct - I think he is saying that on Pentax cameras without an optical low pass filter, the image appears more blurry with the preview for the detail panel checked that unchecked, even if the sharpening amount is set to zero - in other words, it would mean that in these cases, the mere fact of previewing sharpening, even if none is being really applied, causes some blurriness in the image (unless the difference is being caused by the default color noise reduction of 25... although I don't think that's enough to blur an image).

Please note that I don't own a Pentax, I'm a Canon shooter but I teach Photoshop and Lightroom (and I run a PS/LR blog) and I have to deal with people that own any possible camera brand, so I'd like to be prepared in advance should weird things like this really happen. I've downloaded a sample Pentax K5 IIs raw file from this page and truth is I couldn't replicate Lidenbrook's results, but he seems to be knoledgeable about Pentax sensors, and I know sensors like the Fuji X-Trans (without AA filter) had some issues with ACR's demosaicing in the past - well, I believe it was not really due to the lack of an AA filter but caused by their peculiar "not Bayer" color filter array. But, like I was saying, now I'm wondering if ACR sharpening algorithms could really worsen images from certain sensors even when amount=0.

---

Back on topic, as I already said, I'm not really too worried about the removal of the preview checkbox since I use LR way more than ACR. In fact, most of the time I could be described as a (proud) Adobe fan boy. That being said and for the sake of honesty, I do think that, while the new system is indeed more powerful (Max is right, I always hated having to see sharpening and noise reduction coupled), maybe the extra power doesn't compensate for the extra waste of time and confusion that it introduces when being used for very simple tasks - in those cases, the preview box, instead, was quicker and unequivocal. I mean, a Swiss knife beats an ordinary knife hands down - it's much more functional! But if I go to a restaurant and they've replaced knife, fork and spoon for swiss knives... well, you get the idea. Of course the new feature is not as cumbersome as a mega-Swiss knife. It's just a graphic example. But let's not forget that we're not comparing a 5 clicks solution versus a 6 clicks solution: we're comparing a 1 click solution versus a more-than-one-click solution, and in the context of such a simple task, the marginal cost of every extra click is very high. Or at least, user perception of required effort tends to be more than proportional to the "nominal" increase.

Anyway, I think that the real root of the conflict here is not really the new feature, but the fact that maybe introducing the new before/after feature could have been done without removing the preview checkbox. Yes, the old preview checkbox can be simulated via the new "before/after", same as a Swiss knife can "simulate" a knife. But I think each of them meets different needs - LR has both of them (Before/After + on/off switches), so it might not be a totally crazy idea. Yes, yes, LR is not ACR, we already discussed that and I 100% agree, but then, why introduce something that looks like a striped-down LR feature (before/after without history) and remove something that was genuinely ACR-ish?

Please let me state again that this is just my opinion, my thoughts, my humble insight. And while I personally know some people that are deeply upset with the new system, it's also true that most of the photographers I've met lately seem to ignore this change, at least so far (this change is not present in ACR 8.4 for CS6, and I guess that's one of the reasons, since many people is sticking to CS6).

Anyway, enough time will have been wasted if Jeff or anyone at Adobe reads it, so no reply is needed - but still, I'd like to know if somebody could confirm or deny the sharpening issue with the Pentax raws and the old preview box. Thanks.

Hi Carlos

I could´n still reinstall CS-6 on one of my computers, so I have not been able to make comparative tests with which to document with pictures this matter concerning the sensors without low-pass filter (I'm going for health with many tests in the hospital ...., sorry).

However, what I have to do is to check the values ​​of the Detail panel settings for some images of these sensors in ACR 8.4 (Ps CC) and values ​​are maintained. This means that the problem persists because the values ​​they have in ACR 8.4 (Ps CC), are the same that had these images in ACR 8.0 (CS 6) and are the required values to obtain leave the image as it looked with the preview for the detail panel unchecked.

It is logical that you could not reproduce the problem with the images of the sample that you tried ..... To check this, you would have to do in CS 6 with ACR 8.2 or less (can´t confirm if also happening with ACR 8.2 ....) and RAW (PEF preferably , though I suspect with NEF Nikon D800 and D7100 will likely do the same ) that has not been modified with any editor (ie , as the camera comes .... . ) . I don´t know if the test images that you have used some kind of manipulation.

Taking an original RAW PEF , for example, a Pentax K5 IIs , you must put the image to 130-200% , and in the Detail panel, putting 0 as value in the control " Amount " and turning on and off the box preview, you can see perfectly that with the preview box cheched, image has less acutance . For this camera , set 100 in the value of "Amount" , between 1.1 and 1.3 in "Radius" , 25 (default) for "Detail" and the right amount of mask - depending on the characteristics of ISO image and employee - , is achieved see the same image with both the preview box checked as unchecked.

Of course, the amount of noise reduction "Luminance" should be set to 0 and all other noise reduction values, by default (25 displayed as default value of chrominance reduction noise, practically does not alter the picture in what acutance relates to ...).

I would like to document this as properly, but for now I can not. Soon as I can, I will ...

The way demosaicing algorithms working on sensors with and without AA filter is totally different. It is possible that the algorithm used for these RAW in ACR is not adequate enough and that could be the cause of the anomalous behavior of the preview of this panel. This is just a guess, but the behavior of detail panel with this RAW files, is a proven fact....   Unfortunately, the precise technical explanation is really complex and lacking the necessary informations (codes, algorithms used , conversion factors , etc.), would be absurd to try to explain in detail .

In fact, I 'm sure the thing is even more complicated than I guess ....

But it would be interesting if someone from Adobe , sufficiently informed , could shed some light on the subject ...... So far , no one from Adobe has responded to this issue in particular ....

The change in the preview option in the CC versión  Camera RAW, it is really unimportant, since there are still several ways to check before and after each adjustment (in fact , there are now more ways to do it and better ) . But for this case , to have a real reference nivle acutance of origin is very important in achieving the minimum loss to adjust the sharpness or noise reduction. I can assure you that with the value of "Amount" to 0 in the Detail panel, the raw image of these cameras is more blurred than it actually is.

It is necessary to raise a fair amount of adjustment for a level consistent with the acutance having the sensor. And as we all know , the Detail setting - focus - is a destructive adjustment , so that the advantage of these sensors is less by not having a reliable reference of the starting value .

Otherwise, I think the new version of Camera Raw to bring new possibilities, most powerful, and certainly for many will involve some effort to modify and adjust their workflow, but personally I see no problem in it .... more simplement is to adapt, as with so many things in life ..... this is a really minor.

Thank you very much again for your attention and see if we are lucky and someone can check the issue of raw sensor without low-pass filter in previous versions of Camera RAW. It would be interesting to know what it is because that behavior in previous versions and how it affects the change in the new version to these RAW.

Regards

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Community Beginner ,
Apr 28, 2014

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Hudechrome escribió:

I have a D7100 so I ran a check. Now I don't have a lens which can be classed as the sharpest available especially for this test. With that caveat, I ran the test you ran on several images and found no change whatsoever moving from Basic to Detail, back and forth. Further, adding noise suppression value of 25 to the test revealed barely a ghost of a change, all at 200%. Moving the Sharpening Amount to 25, Radius 1.0, detail to 25  showed  maybe a cancellation of the noise shift, if that.

Perhaps it is a Pentax problem, but it isn't a D7100 problem with current optic.

Which version of Camera Raw you tried? I comment can not be verified in 8.4, only in versions that have the ability to enable and disable the preview box Detail panel.

And it is not passing the Basic panel to Detail and back .... Only seen in the Detail panel when on and off (check and uncheck de preview box) the preview panel (and being the value of "Amount" in the default value  or 0 (most noticeable in 0)). Furthermore, it is necessary to expand image to 130-200% to observe the matter properly.  I just comment in my previous answer ....

I doubt that is a problem for Pentax RAW .... The sensor of the D7100 is very similar to the K3 and although the problem is somewhat lower than in K5 IIs - which I can not understand ... . - I am convinced that with enough sharp images the problem will be very similar .... But of course I can be wrong .....

regards

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Participant ,
Apr 29, 2014

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Thanks Hudechrome for doing the tests with your Nikon.

Lidenbrook: I conducted my tests using LR 5.3 (ACR 8.3) and 5.4 (ACR 8.4), since the on/off checkbox exists as a switch in Lightroom. I could not see any difference when switching the Detail panel on/off with sharpening amount set to 0.

Today I tried it again using CS6 with ACR 8.4 - yes, it's 8.4, but new ACR features (as the new before/after) are only functional in the CC versions of ACR - that means that ACR 8.4 update for CS6 still has the preview checkbox (it just adds support for newer raw formats).

Strangely enough, using ACR 8.4 in CS6, I have noticed that using 0 sharpening amount and checking/unchecking the preview box from the detail panel causes a slight difference that is not visible when doing the same thing in LR.

Still, I had to zoom to 200% to notice it, and in fact, it happens also with Canon raws (with 0 sharpening amount, unchecking the preview box causes a very, very slight blur).

The only thing I couldn't do is try it using a "genuine" Pentax raw file (PEF), I only found DNG samples. I don't think that makes a difference (they are straight from the camera - DNG 1.1 specification, of course with mosaic data/14 bit, no fast load data).

But health is infinitely more important than the preview/sharpening issue, so I wish all your tests go well and you can soon forget about doctors. Take care!

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Community Beginner ,
Apr 29, 2014

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Well .....

I just restore the PC to point before installing ACR 8.4 update (can´t go further back in time...), so I have ACR 8.3 with CC Bridge (6.0 ......) and photosop CC (14.0 x 64 ) and I have not managed to reproduce the problem with RAW Pentax K5 IIs .

As I said earlier, the problem occurred with earlier versions of ACR to 8.3 and CS 6.... specifically remember having checked with the 8.0 .

I also remember having checked with a D 7100 RAW  in one of the courses I usually teach (yes, I also give classes in photography , especially night photography and image processing .... heh heh ... But it is not that I dedicate this, but call me to impart courses at certain photographic entities , as it happen in the case with  conferences at Congress Photo Pentax ... )

It is very likely that support for new cameras have made ​​changes to the post versions 8.0 for viewing RAW of  such cameras.....  The truth is , I can not reproduce the problem with ACR 8.3 in CC ..... And believe me when I say that the problem was very noticeable in CS 6 with ACR 8.0 ....

In any case , it seems that the problem is solved , since the activation / deactivation of the preview does not produce any changes in the image (wth 0 in "Amount" and defaults for all other settings...).

I left wondering what is happening with the values ​​that already have the RAW processed in those versions of ACR and imported into this new version 8.4 .... But since I do not observe overfocusing RAW processed in those above, it seems that the problem was rather representation of the image - display - with the preview setting off to a real problem of data conversion to apply sharpening ....

In any case , the issue appears to be resolved , so , unless those versions of ACR and CS 6 is used ( in which case you should check for the particular camera in question ) , it is not necessary to give more around the bush .

So, the new display enhancements introduced by the latest version of ACR are equally applicable to this type of sensor , which generalizes the advantage ...... and my concern vanishes .....

And I am sure that soon we will have even more improvements and some really interesting .....

Thanks again to everyone for your cooperation and kind regards

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Engaged ,
Apr 29, 2014

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Good point about trying it in LR. I'll check there as well.

So far as the new setup is concerned, it turns out that, if your Before is actually Camera Raw Defaults (I almost typed "Defects!), then the Before/After is grayed out. So now, if you make any adjustment starting from CRD, using Before/After, or Ctrl-Z or CRD inside Basic, one gets the same result, and because I start with Sharpening first (unless it's done in DxO), the new system is moot. If I have to make a big shift in Exposure first, then I use Ctrl-P, go to Sharpening and proceed from there with B/A, but Ctrl-Z also works. It gets fussier if I want to separate Noise and Sharpening and I haven't figured out any aspect of using B/A to implement it's use in the fashion intended, probably because I don't know the fashion. It's hunt & Peck, try this try that, and given the stuff with which I have to deal (Web Startup, clients and bailing out of everything to go shoot my stuff) this new process is taking a pretty low priority. If LR is the better place to do this, then there is where I should put my efforts to master the learning curve.

One confession: the D7100 is better served staying out of DxO as much as possible, because their dng does not carry over the Nikon Calibration options. Camera Cal simply says "Embedded" and fortunately, is comparable to Adobe Standard, which is my default for the 7100. This camera needs little in the way of noise control so long as one stays at ISO 800 or less. So I am training myself to mimic the amount of lens correction to match the DxO algorithm (didn't I just say I have stuff to do?) as a starting point, which for ACR Sharpening means staying below 1Px Radius and running the Detail slider above 90. Then the Amount tops out at or below 25. Their other tweaks have merit but the only other tweak of theirs I tend to use is Micro Contrast. There is a tweak in PS that is somewhat similar but not exactly.

So, for the moment, there is where it stands.

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Engaged ,
Apr 29, 2014

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Ok, I'll not do the check (at least not now) in LR. Thanks for posting.

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Community Beginner ,
May 01, 2014

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Dear Adobe,

Please add the preview button back. Keep whatever other functionality you want, but the preview button was just so easy, it was clearly a poor decision to remove it. We all want it back.

Best Regards,

Vince

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New Here ,
May 19, 2014

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So has anyone had any positive answers from Adobe about the reinstatement of the ACR filter preview button?

This was one of the most valuable and efficient tools ever in Photoshop. I can't believe it is gone. Sure there are clumsy dumb work arounds but not efficient.

PLEASE reinstate this button ASAP Adobe!!

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New Here ,
May 19, 2014

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Ok seems I jumped the gun here before finding all the facts. There is a preference option on the new split screen panels. If you hold down the mouse button on the first spilt screen options button a popup will appear. Select "Preview preferences".

Un-tick all the options except the last one named "Pane labels" Click ok and you will find the centre split pane button will now toggle as a before/after as per the previous preview button

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Community Beginner ,
May 20, 2014

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it doesn't work for each tab settings

example:

if you add +3 exposure from the first tab

and then go to fx and add vignette and stay in the fx tab

the old previous button would on/off the vignette without changing the exposure

now the P button will restore everything in 0

Terrible move from adobe, as i said above: If they want ACR look like Lightroom, then put ON/OFF switch in each tab,

This workflow is just confusing.

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Engaged ,
May 20, 2014

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Sorry, does nothing for my work flow. If I set Basics, then move to Detail clicking the center button still does what it did in the default position; switch to the starting point of the edit, that is, the Camera RAW defaults.

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Community Beginner ,
May 20, 2014

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Sorry Steve but your suggestion doesn't work for individual panes. The only thing I've found that lets you step back in individual panes is CTL-Z  I don't hold any hope that Adobe will listen. Their reasoning is 'my way or the highway.' They don't really give a crap what the rest of us think or the fact that this has screwed up our workflow. I could care less about whether sharpening and whatever is separated. What I want is a fast, seamless workflow

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LEGEND ,
May 20, 2014

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ycardozo wrote:

…I don't hold any hope that Adobe will listen. Their reasoning is 'my way or the highway.' They don't really give a crap what the rest of us think or the fact that this has screwed up our workflow…

Why should they?  Now that a bunch of you are subscribed, what iks their incentive to listen?  Just asking…

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Engaged ,
May 20, 2014

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DXO Pro.

Just sayin'!

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LEGEND ,
May 20, 2014

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Sorry, Larry.  I'll google DXO Pro later; I don't know much about it.

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Engaged ,
May 20, 2014

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http://www.dxomark.com/

https://www.google.com/#q=dxo+optics+pro

The first link takes you to their lens/camera test rating site, the second to the editing software site.

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LEGEND ,
May 20, 2014

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Thanks, Larry.

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Explorer ,
May 20, 2014

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Notwithstanding Jeff Schewe's comments, as far as I can see there is no commercial reason to believe that the company would ignore the considered and reasoned views of its customers and I would hope that the opinions expressed in this Forum would be acccommodated in the next iteration of ACR.  Max Wendt was clearly trying to be helpful in his message #70 of 28 April and as he pointed out, the new system does have advantages compared to the Preview Button.  However, those advantages are in addition to the function provided by the Preview Button.  I struggle to see advantages of the new Before/After Buttons compared independently and separately to the erstwhile Preview Button.  But in my view, integration of the new Before/After systen with a further facility to review the image developments made within each Panel would provide a very powerful review facilty and ensure that ACR retains its position as market leader in raw image development; and satisfy everybody!

Thom.

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Engaged ,
May 20, 2014

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Well said. Thanks for your contribution, Hanahoe!

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LEGEND ,
May 20, 2014

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Hanahoe wrote:

Notwithstanding Jeff Schewe's comments…

Which comments?  Where? 

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Explorer ,
May 21, 2014

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station_two wrote:

Which comments?  Where? 

Within this thread (Re: Preview Button!!!), Jeff Schewe contributed a significant number of messages, starting with message #5 through to message #68.

Thom.

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LEGEND ,
May 21, 2014

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And you actually believe that any of those comments by Mr. Schewe represent the view that, as you imply, he would think that there are "commercial reason to believe that the company would ignore the considered and reasoned views of its customers"?

That's the part of your post that startled me. Jeff Schewe has always had remarkable faith in Adobe and expresses himself very confident in the future success of ADobe's policies.

Hanohoe wrote:

Notwithstanding Jeff Schewe's comments, as far as I can see there is no commercial reason to believe that the company would ignore the considered and reasoned views of its customers

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