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Preview Button!!!!

New Here ,
Apr 11, 2014 Apr 11, 2014

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Hello, I am incredibly upset about the removal of the preview button in Camera Raw. It has completely interrupted my workflow. I don't mind the ADDITION of new features for those who make take advantage of them, but the REMOVAL of perfectly good features that many of us are used to using is asinine and if you can't tell I am rather upset about it. Please for the sake of god bring it back.

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Community Beginner ,
Apr 28, 2014 Apr 28, 2014

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Hudechrome escribió:

I have a D7100 so I ran a check. Now I don't have a lens which can be classed as the sharpest available especially for this test. With that caveat, I ran the test you ran on several images and found no change whatsoever moving from Basic to Detail, back and forth. Further, adding noise suppression value of 25 to the test revealed barely a ghost of a change, all at 200%. Moving the Sharpening Amount to 25, Radius 1.0, detail to 25  showed  maybe a cancellation of the noise shift, if that.

Perhaps it is a Pentax problem, but it isn't a D7100 problem with current optic.

Which version of Camera Raw you tried? I comment can not be verified in 8.4, only in versions that have the ability to enable and disable the preview box Detail panel.

And it is not passing the Basic panel to Detail and back .... Only seen in the Detail panel when on and off (check and uncheck de preview box) the preview panel (and being the value of "Amount" in the default value  or 0 (most noticeable in 0)). Furthermore, it is necessary to expand image to 130-200% to observe the matter properly.  I just comment in my previous answer ....

I doubt that is a problem for Pentax RAW .... The sensor of the D7100 is very similar to the K3 and although the problem is somewhat lower than in K5 IIs - which I can not understand ... . - I am convinced that with enough sharp images the problem will be very similar .... But of course I can be wrong .....

regards

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Engaged ,
Apr 29, 2014 Apr 29, 2014

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Thanks Hudechrome for doing the tests with your Nikon.

Lidenbrook: I conducted my tests using LR 5.3 (ACR 8.3) and 5.4 (ACR 8.4), since the on/off checkbox exists as a switch in Lightroom. I could not see any difference when switching the Detail panel on/off with sharpening amount set to 0.

Today I tried it again using CS6 with ACR 8.4 - yes, it's 8.4, but new ACR features (as the new before/after) are only functional in the CC versions of ACR - that means that ACR 8.4 update for CS6 still has the preview checkbox (it just adds support for newer raw formats).

Strangely enough, using ACR 8.4 in CS6, I have noticed that using 0 sharpening amount and checking/unchecking the preview box from the detail panel causes a slight difference that is not visible when doing the same thing in LR.

Still, I had to zoom to 200% to notice it, and in fact, it happens also with Canon raws (with 0 sharpening amount, unchecking the preview box causes a very, very slight blur).

The only thing I couldn't do is try it using a "genuine" Pentax raw file (PEF), I only found DNG samples. I don't think that makes a difference (they are straight from the camera - DNG 1.1 specification, of course with mosaic data/14 bit, no fast load data).

But health is infinitely more important than the preview/sharpening issue, so I wish all your tests go well and you can soon forget about doctors. Take care!

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Community Beginner ,
Apr 29, 2014 Apr 29, 2014

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Well .....

I just restore the PC to point before installing ACR 8.4 update (can´t go further back in time...), so I have ACR 8.3 with CC Bridge (6.0 ......) and photosop CC (14.0 x 64 ) and I have not managed to reproduce the problem with RAW Pentax K5 IIs .

As I said earlier, the problem occurred with earlier versions of ACR to 8.3 and CS 6.... specifically remember having checked with the 8.0 .

I also remember having checked with a D 7100 RAW  in one of the courses I usually teach (yes, I also give classes in photography , especially night photography and image processing .... heh heh ... But it is not that I dedicate this, but call me to impart courses at certain photographic entities , as it happen in the case with  conferences at Congress Photo Pentax ... )

It is very likely that support for new cameras have made ​​changes to the post versions 8.0 for viewing RAW of  such cameras.....  The truth is , I can not reproduce the problem with ACR 8.3 in CC ..... And believe me when I say that the problem was very noticeable in CS 6 with ACR 8.0 ....

In any case , it seems that the problem is solved , since the activation / deactivation of the preview does not produce any changes in the image (wth 0 in "Amount" and defaults for all other settings...).

I left wondering what is happening with the values ​​that already have the RAW processed in those versions of ACR and imported into this new version 8.4 .... But since I do not observe overfocusing RAW processed in those above, it seems that the problem was rather representation of the image - display - with the preview setting off to a real problem of data conversion to apply sharpening ....

In any case , the issue appears to be resolved , so , unless those versions of ACR and CS 6 is used ( in which case you should check for the particular camera in question ) , it is not necessary to give more around the bush .

So, the new display enhancements introduced by the latest version of ACR are equally applicable to this type of sensor , which generalizes the advantage ...... and my concern vanishes .....

And I am sure that soon we will have even more improvements and some really interesting .....

Thanks again to everyone for your cooperation and kind regards

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Engaged ,
Apr 29, 2014 Apr 29, 2014

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Ok, I'll not do the check (at least not now) in LR. Thanks for posting.

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Engaged ,
Apr 29, 2014 Apr 29, 2014

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Good point about trying it in LR. I'll check there as well.

So far as the new setup is concerned, it turns out that, if your Before is actually Camera Raw Defaults (I almost typed "Defects!), then the Before/After is grayed out. So now, if you make any adjustment starting from CRD, using Before/After, or Ctrl-Z or CRD inside Basic, one gets the same result, and because I start with Sharpening first (unless it's done in DxO), the new system is moot. If I have to make a big shift in Exposure first, then I use Ctrl-P, go to Sharpening and proceed from there with B/A, but Ctrl-Z also works. It gets fussier if I want to separate Noise and Sharpening and I haven't figured out any aspect of using B/A to implement it's use in the fashion intended, probably because I don't know the fashion. It's hunt & Peck, try this try that, and given the stuff with which I have to deal (Web Startup, clients and bailing out of everything to go shoot my stuff) this new process is taking a pretty low priority. If LR is the better place to do this, then there is where I should put my efforts to master the learning curve.

One confession: the D7100 is better served staying out of DxO as much as possible, because their dng does not carry over the Nikon Calibration options. Camera Cal simply says "Embedded" and fortunately, is comparable to Adobe Standard, which is my default for the 7100. This camera needs little in the way of noise control so long as one stays at ISO 800 or less. So I am training myself to mimic the amount of lens correction to match the DxO algorithm (didn't I just say I have stuff to do?) as a starting point, which for ACR Sharpening means staying below 1Px Radius and running the Detail slider above 90. Then the Amount tops out at or below 25. Their other tweaks have merit but the only other tweak of theirs I tend to use is Micro Contrast. There is a tweak in PS that is somewhat similar but not exactly.

So, for the moment, there is where it stands.

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Community Beginner ,
Apr 28, 2014 Apr 28, 2014

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Carlos (Photoshopeando) escribió:

I would like to know if Lidenbrook's findings are correct - I think he is saying that on Pentax cameras without an optical low pass filter, the image appears more blurry with the preview for the detail panel checked that unchecked, even if the sharpening amount is set to zero - in other words, it would mean that in these cases, the mere fact of previewing sharpening, even if none is being really applied, causes some blurriness in the image (unless the difference is being caused by the default color noise reduction of 25... although I don't think that's enough to blur an image).

Please note that I don't own a Pentax, I'm a Canon shooter but I teach Photoshop and Lightroom (and I run a PS/LR blog) and I have to deal with people that own any possible camera brand, so I'd like to be prepared in advance should weird things like this really happen. I've downloaded a sample Pentax K5 IIs raw file from this page and truth is I couldn't replicate Lidenbrook's results, but he seems to be knoledgeable about Pentax sensors, and I know sensors like the Fuji X-Trans (without AA filter) had some issues with ACR's demosaicing in the past - well, I believe it was not really due to the lack of an AA filter but caused by their peculiar "not Bayer" color filter array. But, like I was saying, now I'm wondering if ACR sharpening algorithms could really worsen images from certain sensors even when amount=0.

---

Back on topic, as I already said, I'm not really too worried about the removal of the preview checkbox since I use LR way more than ACR. In fact, most of the time I could be described as a (proud) Adobe fan boy. That being said and for the sake of honesty, I do think that, while the new system is indeed more powerful (Max is right, I always hated having to see sharpening and noise reduction coupled), maybe the extra power doesn't compensate for the extra waste of time and confusion that it introduces when being used for very simple tasks - in those cases, the preview box, instead, was quicker and unequivocal. I mean, a Swiss knife beats an ordinary knife hands down - it's much more functional! But if I go to a restaurant and they've replaced knife, fork and spoon for swiss knives... well, you get the idea. Of course the new feature is not as cumbersome as a mega-Swiss knife. It's just a graphic example. But let's not forget that we're not comparing a 5 clicks solution versus a 6 clicks solution: we're comparing a 1 click solution versus a more-than-one-click solution, and in the context of such a simple task, the marginal cost of every extra click is very high. Or at least, user perception of required effort tends to be more than proportional to the "nominal" increase.

Anyway, I think that the real root of the conflict here is not really the new feature, but the fact that maybe introducing the new before/after feature could have been done without removing the preview checkbox. Yes, the old preview checkbox can be simulated via the new "before/after", same as a Swiss knife can "simulate" a knife. But I think each of them meets different needs - LR has both of them (Before/After + on/off switches), so it might not be a totally crazy idea. Yes, yes, LR is not ACR, we already discussed that and I 100% agree, but then, why introduce something that looks like a striped-down LR feature (before/after without history) and remove something that was genuinely ACR-ish?

Please let me state again that this is just my opinion, my thoughts, my humble insight. And while I personally know some people that are deeply upset with the new system, it's also true that most of the photographers I've met lately seem to ignore this change, at least so far (this change is not present in ACR 8.4 for CS6, and I guess that's one of the reasons, since many people is sticking to CS6).

Anyway, enough time will have been wasted if Jeff or anyone at Adobe reads it, so no reply is needed - but still, I'd like to know if somebody could confirm or deny the sharpening issue with the Pentax raws and the old preview box. Thanks.

Hi Carlos

I could´n still reinstall CS-6 on one of my computers, so I have not been able to make comparative tests with which to document with pictures this matter concerning the sensors without low-pass filter (I'm going for health with many tests in the hospital ...., sorry).

However, what I have to do is to check the values ​​of the Detail panel settings for some images of these sensors in ACR 8.4 (Ps CC) and values ​​are maintained. This means that the problem persists because the values ​​they have in ACR 8.4 (Ps CC), are the same that had these images in ACR 8.0 (CS 6) and are the required values to obtain leave the image as it looked with the preview for the detail panel unchecked.

It is logical that you could not reproduce the problem with the images of the sample that you tried ..... To check this, you would have to do in CS 6 with ACR 8.2 or less (can´t confirm if also happening with ACR 8.2 ....) and RAW (PEF preferably , though I suspect with NEF Nikon D800 and D7100 will likely do the same ) that has not been modified with any editor (ie , as the camera comes .... . ) . I don´t know if the test images that you have used some kind of manipulation.

Taking an original RAW PEF , for example, a Pentax K5 IIs , you must put the image to 130-200% , and in the Detail panel, putting 0 as value in the control " Amount " and turning on and off the box preview, you can see perfectly that with the preview box cheched, image has less acutance . For this camera , set 100 in the value of "Amount" , between 1.1 and 1.3 in "Radius" , 25 (default) for "Detail" and the right amount of mask - depending on the characteristics of ISO image and employee - , is achieved see the same image with both the preview box checked as unchecked.

Of course, the amount of noise reduction "Luminance" should be set to 0 and all other noise reduction values, by default (25 displayed as default value of chrominance reduction noise, practically does not alter the picture in what acutance relates to ...).

I would like to document this as properly, but for now I can not. Soon as I can, I will ...

The way demosaicing algorithms working on sensors with and without AA filter is totally different. It is possible that the algorithm used for these RAW in ACR is not adequate enough and that could be the cause of the anomalous behavior of the preview of this panel. This is just a guess, but the behavior of detail panel with this RAW files, is a proven fact....   Unfortunately, the precise technical explanation is really complex and lacking the necessary informations (codes, algorithms used , conversion factors , etc.), would be absurd to try to explain in detail .

In fact, I 'm sure the thing is even more complicated than I guess ....

But it would be interesting if someone from Adobe , sufficiently informed , could shed some light on the subject ...... So far , no one from Adobe has responded to this issue in particular ....

The change in the preview option in the CC versión  Camera RAW, it is really unimportant, since there are still several ways to check before and after each adjustment (in fact , there are now more ways to do it and better ) . But for this case , to have a real reference nivle acutance of origin is very important in achieving the minimum loss to adjust the sharpness or noise reduction. I can assure you that with the value of "Amount" to 0 in the Detail panel, the raw image of these cameras is more blurred than it actually is.

It is necessary to raise a fair amount of adjustment for a level consistent with the acutance having the sensor. And as we all know , the Detail setting - focus - is a destructive adjustment , so that the advantage of these sensors is less by not having a reliable reference of the starting value .

Otherwise, I think the new version of Camera Raw to bring new possibilities, most powerful, and certainly for many will involve some effort to modify and adjust their workflow, but personally I see no problem in it .... more simplement is to adapt, as with so many things in life ..... this is a really minor.

Thank you very much again for your attention and see if we are lucky and someone can check the issue of raw sensor without low-pass filter in previous versions of Camera RAW. It would be interesting to know what it is because that behavior in previous versions and how it affects the change in the new version to these RAW.

Regards

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Engaged ,
Apr 28, 2014 Apr 28, 2014

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Yes, what you posted  about noise and sharpening is what I said, so I understand that. Now, this is where I am losing understanding. Are you saying all susequent "Copy current Settings to Before" (Alt+P) are saved as you move along? I expected Befores as staying Befores (i.e. Defaults because that is my starting "Before"). If I want to save my sharpening I need to make it a new Before,(Alt+P) correct? Not "Done" to save it. (which always annoyed me because I then have to go Back to Bridge and open again) But then, if I want to look at noise with no sharpening applied, I need to reset sharpening to default, because it is now a new Before state and not the default. Before this, I would have to remember the Amount slider value, move it back to zero then play with noise. Finally reapply the Sharp slider to see them together. That is cumbersome but I don't see how the new system improves on it.

Also, I notice another factor. If one sets an adjustment to Set Before, then decide to Cancel and start over, the process no longer means Cancel in the sense now everything is at default. That's what Cancel has always meant to me, unless you click "Done" first. We need a Save button that acumulates settings as one moves along.

It looks to me to be a work in progress, and that's ok too, so long as I am aware of it so I can act accordingly.

I hope this makes sense! I see a few gray hairs sitting next to my keyboard!

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Community Beginner ,
May 01, 2014 May 01, 2014

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Dear Adobe,

Please add the preview button back. Keep whatever other functionality you want, but the preview button was just so easy, it was clearly a poor decision to remove it. We all want it back.

Best Regards,

Vince

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Explorer ,
Apr 28, 2014 Apr 28, 2014

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max.wendt wrote:

So aside from the half second it takes to click an onscreen button (or use a keyboard shortcut) to explicitly set the state you want to compare your adjustments against, I'm not seeing what functionality has been lost.

Working on a few photos that might be true, but I routinely go through hundreds of photos and using the panel preview was second nature to me. Now I have to remember to press ALT-P before making any changes in a new panel and thats a major inconvenience. Its so inconvenient in fact that my workflow probably will change to just comparing to the global before only without quick checks per panel as I did before. Even something like setting the before state automatically on every change to a new panel would be preferable to the new full manual mode.

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Explorer ,
May 05, 2014 May 05, 2014

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Max,

Your message #70 of 28 April was very helpful to this discussion.   I am now content to acknowledge that the new preview system with three buttons in ACR 8.4 has significant advantages over the single button preview system found in earlier versions of ACR.   However, that is not to say that the new system might not be further improved by the addition of a fourth button to show the Before/After changes introduced by each of the Panels.

All best wishes

Thom.

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Community Beginner ,
May 05, 2014 May 05, 2014

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Четвертая кнопка не помешает, это точно!

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Engaged ,
May 05, 2014 May 05, 2014

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I've been using the new system for some time now, and frankly, the usefulness to my work is minimal, and still intrusive at certain points, those being during a session in ACR with no reason to use this feature as I usually simply compare to the default values when pushing the sliders around. That is, until I do need to step back more than one step using Ctrl-Z. But by then, I have not established the proper Before and soon I am in trouble.

I also notice that in most cases, you do not need to set Before. Simply move to another panel, make a change then hit the Before/After. The caveat is you can only do that once!

So, I re-iterate my position on restoring the individual panel Before/After as an additional selection.

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Community Beginner ,
Apr 27, 2014 Apr 27, 2014

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First of all , my sincere thanks for your quick reply . 

Secondly, I beg your pardon for my dullness, it was a simple typo caused by the rush to write quickly to a stranger language I do not master enough. Simply, I made the mistake of writing your name as pronounced in my language. I'm so sorry, I beg your pardon, will not happen again .....

As for the topic at hand is concerned, the solutions you propose - I thank you sincerely , despite being something quite obvious - do not clarify what I raised in my previous answer about the approach of RAWs from sensors without low pass filter. 

As I mentioned before, in previous versions of ACR ( CS 6 , ACR 8.0 .... ) when the preview box is unchecked, the image is sharper than when the box checked and the panel settings to 0. To to see the image as seen with the box off, it is necessary - for PEF and DNG RAW files from a Pentax K5 IIs , for example - to about 100 in "Quantity" , between 1.1 and 1.3 in " Radio " and the rest , with the values displayed by default ( as I described in the aforementioned response).

Can you explain what is due this? How I can see that today is not the same ? .... 

In fact, the checks I've done in ACR 8.4 with the Detail panel settings to O (or the value of "Quantity " to 0 and the rest as is default), the image is not as it really is without applying approach, it is rather more blurred than it must be , being a sensor without low-pass filter (I'm already well accustomed to the level of acutance of these sensors to know that the source image , without applying any approach, is not as blurred as it appears when set “Amount” to 0, as you propose as a starting .....) .

For now, the sum of the particular ignorance of the cause for which the image is sharper in ACR 8.0 with box preview off, that with it on and with the values 0 (although I have a rough idea of what you can be because ..... , misinterpretation of the values of these RAWs in ACR , using a "generic" algorithm for demosaicing , so to speak ..... most likely .... ) and the lack information on whether this phenomenon persists - I mean the blur image of this type of RAWs with values 0 Quantity - , as well as the inability to prove it in the program itself - due to the lack of possibility to disable the display panel detail - ,  make the real possibility of losing quality images - setting acutance and noise reduction - due to lack of real reference, and can be very simply due to the elimination of the possibility of deactivation of the preview setting panel.

Obviously , to this fact there is always the possibility of changing the workflow and make settings for noise reduction approach and a dedicated external program , but in my humble opinion, an update of a program - and more of a development program RAW ACR as is - should be an improvement in the workflow , not a hindrance . 

I am convinced that the improvements aprta the new version are helpful and certainly appreciated the hard work done , but both are not known with certainty behavior demosicing in cases of raw from sensors such as those I am referring , the porpuestas solutions so far - which undoubtedly appreciate , despite being obvious as I said - do not solve the problem.

I agree that this should be ...., should be sufficient to return to 0 setting to see the reference - and then break - but the truth is that it is not, the behavior of the program with these probes are fits that approach.... 

Again , we greatly appreciate your patience , cooperation and your understanding , and please let me apologize for the error in writing your name. 

Thank you very much and kind regards

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LEGEND ,
Apr 27, 2014 Apr 27, 2014

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Lidenbrook wrote:

Again , we greatly appreciate your patience , cooperation and your understanding , and please let me apologize for the error in writing your name. 

No worries mate (that's Australian for don't worry about it!)

My only goal here is to help and explain that the old behavior is gone and offer some tips to overcome the new workflow.

I don't disagree that the old way was simple...it was a binary on/off. But that's gone now. So, what do you want to do? Adapt and adopt or dwell on what was (and now no longer isn't)?

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New Here ,
May 19, 2014 May 19, 2014

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So has anyone had any positive answers from Adobe about the reinstatement of the ACR filter preview button?

This was one of the most valuable and efficient tools ever in Photoshop. I can't believe it is gone. Sure there are clumsy dumb work arounds but not efficient.

PLEASE reinstate this button ASAP Adobe!!

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New Here ,
May 19, 2014 May 19, 2014

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Ok seems I jumped the gun here before finding all the facts. There is a preference option on the new split screen panels. If you hold down the mouse button on the first spilt screen options button a popup will appear. Select "Preview preferences".

Un-tick all the options except the last one named "Pane labels" Click ok and you will find the centre split pane button will now toggle as a before/after as per the previous preview button

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Community Beginner ,
May 20, 2014 May 20, 2014

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it doesn't work for each tab settings

example:

if you add +3 exposure from the first tab

and then go to fx and add vignette and stay in the fx tab

the old previous button would on/off the vignette without changing the exposure

now the P button will restore everything in 0

Terrible move from adobe, as i said above: If they want ACR look like Lightroom, then put ON/OFF switch in each tab,

This workflow is just confusing.

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Engaged ,
May 20, 2014 May 20, 2014

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Sorry, does nothing for my work flow. If I set Basics, then move to Detail clicking the center button still does what it did in the default position; switch to the starting point of the edit, that is, the Camera RAW defaults.

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Community Beginner ,
May 20, 2014 May 20, 2014

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Sorry Steve but your suggestion doesn't work for individual panes. The only thing I've found that lets you step back in individual panes is CTL-Z  I don't hold any hope that Adobe will listen. Their reasoning is 'my way or the highway.' They don't really give a crap what the rest of us think or the fact that this has screwed up our workflow. I could care less about whether sharpening and whatever is separated. What I want is a fast, seamless workflow

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LEGEND ,
May 20, 2014 May 20, 2014

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ycardozo wrote:

…I don't hold any hope that Adobe will listen. Their reasoning is 'my way or the highway.' They don't really give a crap what the rest of us think or the fact that this has screwed up our workflow…

Why should they?  Now that a bunch of you are subscribed, what iks their incentive to listen?  Just asking…

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Engaged ,
May 20, 2014 May 20, 2014

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DXO Pro.

Just sayin'!

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LEGEND ,
May 20, 2014 May 20, 2014

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Sorry, Larry.  I'll google DXO Pro later; I don't know much about it.

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Engaged ,
May 20, 2014 May 20, 2014

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http://www.dxomark.com/

https://www.google.com/#q=dxo+optics+pro

The first link takes you to their lens/camera test rating site, the second to the editing software site.

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LEGEND ,
May 20, 2014 May 20, 2014

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Thanks, Larry.

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Explorer ,
May 20, 2014 May 20, 2014

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Notwithstanding Jeff Schewe's comments, as far as I can see there is no commercial reason to believe that the company would ignore the considered and reasoned views of its customers and I would hope that the opinions expressed in this Forum would be acccommodated in the next iteration of ACR.  Max Wendt was clearly trying to be helpful in his message #70 of 28 April and as he pointed out, the new system does have advantages compared to the Preview Button.  However, those advantages are in addition to the function provided by the Preview Button.  I struggle to see advantages of the new Before/After Buttons compared independently and separately to the erstwhile Preview Button.  But in my view, integration of the new Before/After systen with a further facility to review the image developments made within each Panel would provide a very powerful review facilty and ensure that ACR retains its position as market leader in raw image development; and satisfy everybody!

Thom.

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