Coldfusion 8 (I want it)

Report · Jul 30, 2007

In an interesting change of events my boss has asked me about Coldfusion 8.

We are predominantly a Microsoft house but my skill set is in Coldfusion. He likes the fact that it ties into .NET.

But I have have to sell him on it and the rest of the developers so I have my work cut out for me.

Can you guys give me some good solid reasons why my company should adopt Coldfusion if our strategic direction is .NET?

Can someone lead me to some Coldfusion .NET examples so I can maybe create something using the two technologies.

You help is dearly appreciated!

Yours,
Frank (Coldfusion fanatic) Tudor

Report · Aug 02, 2007

^ same dude (my god you are a sneak)...I mean supporting your own comments as if you were a second person. Nice. You still don't have a leg to stand on. So I guess you should move along 😉

Report · Aug 02, 2007

Thanks Michael,

I just needed to facts not all this fighting. Using the word 'better' is subjective and there are so many variables that are different from case to case. For my specific need Coldfusion is the option. I am not developing enterprise architecture, or ERP systems, or crazy things like that. I am building web applications some are so simple that it is insane to even consider .NET. On the other hand, I create a lot of C# console apps where I can take full advantage of the technology (file handling and such). For example I would not use Coldfusion to crunch through 1.5 million XML files and consolidate them...

IMHO, ASP.NET has a lot more work to do on the 'web front' to convince me that it is competitive with Coldfusion. It would basically have to provide everything that Coldfusion 8 provides. And when I say that, I mean that one individual can do everything from design, development, troubleshooting, administration, etc.

Adobe empowers people by making them more productive. Coldfusion empowers me as a developer and an administrator of Coldfusion websites. I don't feel that when I use Microsoft technology. I mean I can't be the only one that feels this way, right?

Again thank you for supporting me in this discussion.

Report · Aug 02, 2007

quote:

Originally posted by: frank_tudor
Adobe empowers people by making them more productive. Coldfusion empowers me as a developer and an administrator of Coldfusion websites. I don't feel that when I use Microsoft technology. I mean I can't be the only one that feels this way, right?

Not at all, Frank. I use both CF and .NET (primarily C#). Each has strengths and weaknesses. I've got a background in C++ and Java, so the C# syntax is comfortable to me...and when I started writing CF, it's syntax certainly seemed rather odd. But that was years ago, and at this point I'd much rather build a web app with CF than with .NET. For anything but the most trivial project, it's faster, in some cases considerably so.

I work with several experienced, .NET devotees (VBers, mostly), and they readily acknowledge the value ColdFusion brings to the company. CF8 will add considerably to that value. A couple of years ago I used .NET2 to write an image re-size and compression utility for our intranet. It works well, the users love it, but if that project came up now, there's no question I'd build it with ColdFusion. Having used the cfimage tag while evaluating the CF8 beta, I know that I could create a much more powerful utility, with fewer lines of code and in less time than the original took.

The point you make about the .NET add-ons and plug-ins is also a good one. CF addresses some of the most important business issues right out of the box (PDF creation and manipulation, for example), but with .NET you've usually got to look at further commercial products. That alone has been enough to endear CF to the managers here. Charting is icing on the cake. With .NET, that's some pretty pricey icing.

One of the great things about using ColdFusion and .NET in the same department is that you quickly realize that the two tools can co-exist, rather happily and productively (even moreso with CF8, it would seem). I view it as a metaphor for the web as a whole.

Report · Aug 02, 2007

That metaphor is lost on the people who are of the mindset that any given web project can consist of only one platform.

In today's internet, you can use CF for what it does best, and use .NET, javascript, PHP, etc for what it does best (whatever that is), and comfortably co-exist.

There is no reason for your development to be a one trick pony, unless you find a platform that supports everything you need.

Now, as soon as I encounter a project that CF cannot accomodate, I will walk the talk and implement one of those other technologies. In the meantime, I will keep being productive with CF.

This is not an "all or nothing" scenario.

Report · Aug 02, 2007

Thanks guys...That is exactly how I feel and what I am looking for. I have trouble conveying this message so you guys have given me so much to consider and talk about with management (in about an hour)....(if anyone can give me more..I will take any other thoughts up to the moment).

Report · Aug 03, 2007

This thread is amazing - almost all of teh things said here are entirely
false!!

Charts for .Net - they are free and plentiful. Web Charts is particualrly
respected in this area (mainly as it is robust and easy to use) More on this
here http://aspnet.4guysfromrolla.com/articles/120804-1.aspx. And a gzillion
others via google.

So the chart thing, not a very good point. Neither is the "having to
download stuff" as you need to do plenty of extra downloads with CF!! At
least with asp.net you are virtually guaranteed a solution as it's just a
way bigger industry.

You couldn't find an OR tool for .Net - thats a hoot. I use .Net Tiers adn
NHibernate, both free and both awsome. Plus there are hundreds of others
availabel commercially. .Net plops all over cf in ths area more than almost
any other!!

re: Then you get into your database problems. SQL

Not only are your point totally invalid, but now you are off on to
databases. What has databases got to with anything here, totally different
tool. Do you think that asp,net can't work with MySQL or any other database?
It can and often does. So this point is not only invalid, but totally
meaningless.

re: But guys come on. I think the best part of Coldfusion are the
developers and
the Adobe relationship to its community. Head over to asp.net forums and
submit something to there 'moderated' forum.

And here it gets blatantly silly. The AspNet community is massive, and I
mean MASSIVE! Microsofts committment, activity, and marketing can't even be
compared to whatever you think it is Adobe are doing. Head over to the
asp.net forums? Which ones - their are literally hundreds of them in all
shapes and sizes and they are extreremly active. The cf forum gets a mere
trickle of posts by comparison.

I'm not sure if it's plain ignorance or just porky pies, but there is barely
a single valid point in many of these posts. Which is a shame as there are
valid points in CF's favor. For whatever reason, none of them have been even
mentioned here! Nearly everything here is just plain wrong and very easily
proven to be.

Seriously, the amount of guff being presented here just looks delusional to
anyone who has even half aclue about the web dev world. I'm beginning to
wonder if cf developers are now almost exclusively newbies.

"frank_tudor" <webforumsuser@macromedia.com> wrote in message
news:f8qlhs$ctg$1@forums.macromedia.com...
> Thank you DueNorth2007...
>
> And that brings up a good point. As I was learning .NET, I was amazed at
> how
> quickly I was out there looking for things, CFX/UDF equivalents, saying to
> myself "someone must have done this before". I found them, but they all
> wanted
> cash money let me give you an example.
>
> In one of my projects, my boss wants me to provide pie charts. I agree
> pie
> charts would communicate ideas effectively. But then I don't know the
> system
> draw stuff in .NET nor do I have the time to dick with it. So I found a
> package that could solve the problem...
>
> Here is what I found: http://www.dotnetcharting.com/?gaw for $395 (one
> website) or $995 for a server license so you can use it on more than one
> IP.
>
> Hmmm.. Coldfusion includes this with there server package. And I just use
> the
> cfchart stuff to build it..and it works and is beautiful. I don't know
> how
> dotnetcharting works or how you filter information to it.
>
> Ok next. I need an O/R mapping tool. Basically a crud/rad tool that
> allows
> fast development of your forms (most common development excersise in the
> web
> world).
>
> Great I go out and found tierDeveloper, which was a useful tool. The cost
> $1,500 plus maintance and support for $800.
>
> So the price goes up.. Of course, but VS express version are free.
> Yea...not
> really there are limitations to the free version, and to use the tools
> above
> you need to have Standard or Professional installed. $300.00 plus I need
> a
> server license for Windows 2003 (web edition is $400) on new egg
> currently.
>
> Then you get into your database problems. SQL Server 2005 Express Edition
> cannot import or export database or tables. So you have to get the
> Standard
> version of that. This is a cost I cannot get around because I like SQL
> Server
> however it is 5 grand (sheesh)
>
> What about the design side of things. Basically the websites that are
> generated from VS look just like crap. To get things to look nice you
> have to
> go into the properties screens for everything. My god you could make
> yourself
> insane to get things just right.
>
> Microsoft has a solution for you but it just out of beta RC candidate 1.0
> and
> it is called Silverlight...Great...
>
> Well I'm going to stop here. You can see where I am going with this.
>
> Out of the box, the cost for solutions is cheaper both in man hours, and
> price. I will cough up the $1300 for Coldfusion 8 any day.
>
> But guys come on. I think the best part of Coldfusion are the developers
> and
> the Adobe relationship to its community. Head over to asp.net forums and
> submit something to there 'moderated' forum. If this forum was moderated
> like
> theirs Campag would have more difficult chance of causing flame wars.
>
> They do that for that very reason. They just filter the questions and
> make
> sure they are worded just right and it goes to the right place. It so
> nice and
> beautiful and friendly...gosh...
>
> Well if anyone else wants to give me more examples or reasons 'BESIDES'
> Campag
> I would love to hear it...
>

Report · Aug 03, 2007

Your original statement was that CF use was less and less. I understand that to say that CF use is declining. Your recent statement then sort of changed the meaning that CF was being used less than .NET. I would agree with that. There are more .NET developers than CF developers, however, that does not mean that CF use is declining.

Again, don't over-generalize your statements. ONLY in YOUR opinion, can you make the statement that .NET is the "be-all". You cannot make the statement that .NET is the "be-all" in my situation.

Frank even started his post stating that they are Microsoft shop. Why would he be looking for other solutions unless .NET wasn't just right FOR HIM?

quote:

Seriously, the amount of guff being presented here just looks delusional to
anyone who has even half aclue about the web dev world. I'm beginning to
wonder if cf developers are now almost exclusively newbies.

More generalizations that can't be substantiated. You are saying I don't have half a clue about web development. Then, you say that, almost exclusively, that CF developers are newbies.

Let's do the simple math. You are using these CF forums, therefore, you are a CF developer. By your previous comment, all CF developers are newbies, therefore, you are a newbie. Or, you are just trolling.

Report · Aug 04, 2007

The commenst made were perfectly valid in the context of this thread. A lot
of nonesensical things have been said about cf in compariosn to asp.net.
Almost all of them untrue - somebody even suggested cfform was more
powerful or capable than teh whole asp.net web forms - which is ridiculous
given that cfform is an ant by comparison. Put simply, people in this thread
have stated things that are the opposite of the reality.

I could see how this would give rise to commenst about ignorance.

Lets say that asp.net is more powerful, has far more features and comes with
more support and backing than cf does. This is almost true to the point
where it's not even arguable. The point that one can argue however, is does
this mean it is better for everyone?? No, cf can lay claim to being fastler
to learn and more appropriate to small web applications built by a single
developer. Whereas asp.net is useful for teams of developers or building
more sophisticated enterprise grade applications. (In such cases, the higher
learning curve is well worth it)

In my opinion, yes, cf is for newbies or casual web developers - and there's
not a thing wrong with that. (Otherthan php fills the same gap and is
totally free)

In many ways, cf does not even compete with asp.net. Horses for courses, so
long as you know how to actally make the distinction.

"Michael" <webforumsuser@macromedia.com> wrote in message
news:f8vad1$168$1@forums.macromedia.com...
> Your original statement was that CF use was less and less. I understand
> that
> to say that CF use is declining. Your recent statement then sort of
> changed
> the meaning that CF was being used less than .NET. I would agree with
> that.
> There are more .NET developers than CF developers, however, that does not
> mean
> that CF use is declining.
>
> Again, don't over-generalize your statements. ONLY in YOUR opinion, can
> you
> make the statement that .NET is the "be-all". You cannot make the
> statement
> that .NET is the "be-all" in my situation.
>
> Frank even started his post stating that they are Microsoft shop. Why
> would
> he be looking for other solutions unless .NET wasn't just right FOR HIM?
>
>

quote:

Seriously, the amount of guff being presented here just looks
> delusional to
> anyone who has even half aclue about the web dev world. I'm beginning to
> wonder if cf developers are now almost exclusively newbies.

>
> More generalizations that can't be substantiated. You are saying I don't
> have
> half a clue about web development. Then, you say that, almost
> exclusively,
> that CF developers are newbies.
>
> Let's do the simple math. You are using these CF forums, therefore, you
> are a
> CF developer. By your previous comment, all CF developers are newbies,
> therefore, you are a newbie. Or, you are just trolling.
>

Report · Aug 04, 2007

quote:

In my opinion, yes, cf is for newbies or casual web developers - and there's
not a thing wrong with that.

Well said. You can't argue with your post.

I will also add that, in my opinion, CF is for newbies, casual web developers and professional web developers.

BTW, Frank, you can't close a thread, but you can unsubscribe from it. That's what my next step is.

Report · Aug 04, 2007

re: professional web developers

to a degree - but pro web developers tend not to adopt cf , instead favoring
of something a little more 'available' and/or something a little more robust
and scalable. cf is suited more to small apps. Medium to large apps,
particuallry with ateam of developers need a lot more than cf has to offer.

"Michael" <webforumsuser@macromedia.com> wrote in message
news:f92212$7ut$1@forums.macromedia.com...
>

quote:

In my opinion, yes, cf is for newbies or casual web developers - and
> there's
> not a thing wrong with that.

>
> Well said. You can't argue with your post.
>
> I will also add that, in my opinion, CF is for newbies, casual web
> developers
> and professional web developers.
>
> BTW, Frank, you can't close a thread, but you can unsubscribe from it.
> That's
> what my next step is.
>
>
>

Report · Aug 05, 2007

no, really, how old are you? 13? 14?

Report · Aug 03, 2007

Well everyone gets what they want in the end. and I got mine. Thanks for everyone's help on this.

🙂

Report · Aug 03, 2007

Tell us what you got, Frank. Did your manager approve CF?

Report · Aug 03, 2007

I'll PM or email you the results. I don't want to give troll boy anything else to think about at this point. PM me your email address and I will give you the skinny...

Frank

Report · Aug 03, 2007

Done.

Report · Aug 03, 2007

If the point of this post was to find reason(s) to go with CF instead of .Net, a really good one, as stated by Ben Forta, is that ColdFusion has the unique position of being able to process requests in the CF, .Net, Java, PHP worlds, simultaneously, even in the same request. That also translates to a pretty significant business case too.

Good luck, I hope your company chooses that which is best for it's own business and not what a software vendor says you should go with.

Rich

Report · Aug 03, 2007

Campag ... with your mentality, everyone should buy a Toyota Camary (or whatever the #1 car is) and to buy anything else would be stupid.

Different business needs different solutions and .NET doesn't do everything (your example require installing some 3rd party item which CF supports out of the box). You forgot the search engine, dynamic PDF generation, etc... which .NET doesn't support directly (you need 3rd party help for that).

So nothing said was false. It is just it is beyond your ability to comprehend that there is more then one language that can be used to solve a problem.

Report · Aug 03, 2007

It's ok guys...It's all over..I had my meeting. Is there anyway I can lock this thread?

I want to thank everyone who contributed to this.

Have a super chill weekend, pound a few brews and remember that at the end of the day Coldfusion developer's are rock stars of the industry!!!

:)

Frank

Report · Aug 04, 2007

re: Coldfusion developer's are rock stars of the industry!!!

Seems like I'm being sarcastic, I know. But rocks stars are famous. CF, on
the other hand, even within the world of IT, has many people at
disadvantage. They've never heard of it and/or think it no longer exists. I
think either php or asp (not asp.net, yet) would be the "rock stars" of the
industry as they are synonomous with web development whereas cf is fairly
obscure in many places/countries.

CF is more like the black sheep of the web dev world.

"frank_tudor" <webforumsuser@macromedia.com> wrote in message
news:f8vrtb$lau$1@forums.macromedia.com...
> It's ok guys...It's all over..I had my meeting. Is there anyway I can lock
> this
> thread?
>
> I want to thank everyone who contributed to this.
>
> Have a super chill weekend, pound a few brews and remember that at the end
> of
> the day Coldfusion developer's are rock stars of the industry!!!
>
> :)
>
> Frank
>

Report · Aug 05, 2007

hmm... 12? 11?

Report · Aug 09, 2007

re: It is just it is beyond your ability to comprehend
that there is more then one language that can be used to solve a problem.

There are plenty of things needed for cf that are not /"in the box" - same
is true for other languages. So not a valid point at all.

re: > Different business needs different solutions and .NET doesn't do
everything

It does everything cf can do and a whole lot more - fact.

re: It is just it is beyond your ability to comprehend
> that there is more then one language that can be used to solve a problem.

Not at all -Dot Net is not a dynamic language for example, so there is a
much needed place for languages like php, ruby etc. Cf isn't bad as a
technology and language, its just often bad as a choice for other reasons
(not much support, not much industry around it, not many cf developers to
choose from, generally, it just suffers from being a little on teh obscure
side in many places)

So unfortunately, again, not really any good points. In fact you even added
that I somewhere said there was no ability to use more than just one
language to solve a problem. You literally just made that up all on your
own - so adding to what I initially called "false" statements. Not really
helping your case much is it?

"DueNorth2007" <webforumsuser@macromedia.com> wrote in message
news:f8vptj$j38$1@forums.macromedia.com...
> Campag ... with your mentality, everyone should buy a Toyota Camary (or
> whatever the #1 car is) and to buy anything else would be stupid.
>
> Different business needs different solutions and .NET doesn't do
> everything
> (your example require installing some 3rd party item which CF supports out
> of
> the box). You forgot the search engine, dynamic PDF generation, etc...
> which
> .NET doesn't support directly (you need 3rd party help for that).
>
> So nothing said was false. It is just it is beyond your ability to
> comprehend
> that there is more then one language that can be used to solve a problem.
>