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Different color rendering. Br vs Ps vs Firefox vs ACR

New Here ,
Jan 22, 2023 Jan 22, 2023

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Hi There,

 

I'm on Mac Mini M1 OS 13.1. Acer XV272U 120 Hz 10 bit (8 bit FRC)

I faced a huge mess about the color rendering of Ps ecosystem.

I opened the same JPG pic. in Br, Ps, Firefox, ACR and I visibled different color rendering. See attachment.

Could anybody explain me the reason of this phenomenon? Please, avoid color management tutorials. I have proper color managed system.

 

Ati

 

 
 

 

 

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correct answers 2 Correct answers

Community Expert , Jan 23, 2023 Jan 23, 2023

I still think it's a bad monitor profile (which, BTW, very much is a color management issue).

 

How are you profiling your monitor? What calibration software/colorimeter are you using? What settings? Version 4 and/or LUT profiles can be problematic in some scenarios, make sure to make version 2 and matrix-based profiles.

 

If that's not it, the second most likely possibility is a GPU driver bug. That's something you can normally fix in Windows, but on Mac you have to wait for an OS update, since

...

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Community Expert , Jan 24, 2023 Jan 24, 2023
quote

Adobe should warn about they system is not able to manage V4 icc profiles.


By @st-ati

 

I've tested v4  and Photoshop/ACR/Lightroom/Bridge all handled it well on my system. But there's a broader picture here involving the GPU and OS as well. Monitor profile conversions are performed in the GPU nowadays. Sometimes it doesn't work well, for whatever reason. I use v2 as standard, just to be safe and because v4 doesn't really have any advantages anyway.

 

LUT profiles is another risky proposition.

...

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New Here ,
Jan 22, 2023 Jan 22, 2023

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See the pics in Ps or Lr or Br, not in browser.

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LEGEND ,
Jan 22, 2023 Jan 22, 2023

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They all look the same to me, and they should with color management.  

First, try disabling GPU in the preferences (Performance). Any better?

If not, recalibrate and build a new ICC display profile; the old one might be corrupted. If you are using software/hardware for this task, be sure the software is set to build a matrix, not LUT profile, Version 2, not Version 4 profile.

If turning OFF the GPU works, it's a GPU bug, and you need to contact the manufacturer or find out if there's an updated driver for it. This is why disabling GPU is an option as more and more functionality moves to the GPU in newer versions of many Adobe products. Disable third-party graphics accelerators. Third-party GPU overclocking utilities and haxies aren't supported.

Also see: https://helpx.adobe.com/lightroom-classic/kb/troubleshoot-gpu.html

If the GPU and display profile isn't causing the problem, see:
https://helpx.adobe.com/lightroom-classic/kb/lightroom-gives-error-preview-cache.html

 

Author “Color Management for Photographers" & "Photoshop CC Color Management/pluralsight"

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New Here ,
Jan 23, 2023 Jan 23, 2023

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Thanks for intention. I think you have very low end system, if you do not see the difference. I can see the gamut and gamma drift on my oldschool Ipad Air as well. I no need general advice. It is not color management issue. I need a software bugfix from Adobe. They system is faulty.

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LEGEND ,
Jan 23, 2023 Jan 23, 2023

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Not a low-end display (NEC Spectraview ) but it's only as good as what is provided. Anyway, it's not an Adobe issue or any ICC-aware application. It's your GPU or a display profile issue, both covered previously.

Author “Color Management for Photographers" & "Photoshop CC Color Management/pluralsight"

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New Here ,
Jan 23, 2023 Jan 23, 2023

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Did you download the gamma2.jpg and opened it in Bridge and no difference between slices? No way buddy. Push away the wheelbarrow. Thx.

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LEGEND ,
Jan 23, 2023 Jan 23, 2023

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quote

Did you download the gamma2.jpg and opened it in Bridge and no difference between slices? No way buddy. Push away the wheelbarrow. Thx.


By @st-ati

 

I downloaded the gamma2.jpg and opened it in Bridge and Photoshop at the same zoom ratio: they match each other exactly

Yes, in each version of both applications, the slices themselves look different (so what?). 

Start with a decent test document, a true color reference image, and open them wherever you wish at the same zoom ratio. They will match if color management is being applied correctly without a GPU or display profile issue. Here you go:

http://www.digitaldog.net/files/2014PrinterTestFileFlat.tif.zip

 


@st-ati wrote:

Could anybody explain me the reason of this phenomenon?


 

Yes, two of us have.

Author “Color Management for Photographers" & "Photoshop CC Color Management/pluralsight"

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Community Expert ,
Jan 23, 2023 Jan 23, 2023

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Similar, but not identical. ACR and Firefox show some black clipping not present in PS or Bridge.

 

I'm fairly certain this is a monitor profile issue. This is a quite common smoking gun.

 

One more thing: always compare at 100%  Different screen resampling algorithms may influence the result.

 

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New Here ,
Jan 23, 2023 Jan 23, 2023

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They use different gamma. Mostly. (But I see color drift too. Ignore it.) Mac OS uses the calibration file. So, different adobe apps use the same color profile in different way. Assume the profile is wrong, then we should see consistently different colours all of adobe apps. Of course I tried the original, Apple factory color profile for my monitor. And the phenomenon was the same.

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Community Expert ,
Jan 23, 2023 Jan 23, 2023

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<moved in correct sequence>

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Community Expert ,
Jan 23, 2023 Jan 23, 2023

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I still think it's a bad monitor profile (which, BTW, very much is a color management issue).

 

How are you profiling your monitor? What calibration software/colorimeter are you using? What settings? Version 4 and/or LUT profiles can be problematic in some scenarios, make sure to make version 2 and matrix-based profiles.

 

If that's not it, the second most likely possibility is a GPU driver bug. That's something you can normally fix in Windows, but on Mac you have to wait for an OS update, since the driver is integrated into the operating system.

 

And no, I don't see this difference here on my Windows system with Eizo monitors.

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Community Expert ,
Jan 23, 2023 Jan 23, 2023

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quote
Assume the profile is wrong, then we should see consistently different colours all of adobe apps.

 

Actually, that is a widespread misunderstanding. A bad profile will very often affect applications differently - that's one of the telltale signs. A marginal profile can often work in one application but fail in another.

 

Furthermore, the source color spaces will often be different, so the math of the actual conversion is different, and again, one may work and the other fail. That's the case here. ACR works with linear data with ProPhoto primaries, while Bridge and Photoshop work with gamma encoded standard color spaces.

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LEGEND ,
Jan 23, 2023 Jan 23, 2023

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quote
quote
Assume the profile is wrong, then we should see consistently different colours all of adobe apps.

 

Actually, that is a widespread misunderstanding. A bad profile will very often affect applications differently - that's one of the telltale signs. A marginal profile can often work in one application but fail in another.

 


By @D Fosse

 

Indeed, plus (as mentioned), not all software products play nice with V4 display profiles (if that's what the OP might be using). The bottom line, this isn't an Adobe issue. Nor a 'gamma' issue. 

Author “Color Management for Photographers" & "Photoshop CC Color Management/pluralsight"

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New Here ,
Jan 24, 2023 Jan 24, 2023

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Thank you very much! That was a huge help, this issue droves me crazy. I made a new V2 profiles with i1Studio (Apple Silicon version). This new profile eliminate the color and gamma drift between Bridge, Firefox, ACR. Ps uses good gamma too, but a very bad color drift remained. See attachment. It looks bad. Next step?

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New Here ,
Jan 24, 2023 Jan 24, 2023

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OK guys, I rechecked my Ps color management settings again and I find the "desaturate monitor color" box was checked. So, why and when? Ps difference was an user error.

Adobe please support V4 icc profile. I afraid I will forget to turn the V4 knob next time.

 

 
 

 

 

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LEGEND ,
Jan 24, 2023 Jan 24, 2023

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quote

OK guys, I rechecked my Ps color management settings again and I find the "desaturate monitor color" box was checked. So, why and when? Ps difference was an user error.

Adobe please support V4 icc profile. I afraid I will forget to turn the V4 knob next time.

By @st-atiquote

 

Why? You or someone set it. When, no idea. Never set it to be on: huge hurt me button.

See: http://digitaldog.net/files/PhotoshopColorSettings.mp4

Photoshop CC Color Settings and Assign/Convert to Profile video

 

There is zero need for V4 profiles! Without support for the PRMG, which AFAIK, not a single vendor provides, they do nothing useful. Which is why in the first reply here, I wrote If you are using software/hardware for this task, be sure the software is set to build a matrix, not LUT profile, Version 2, not Version 4 profile.


Author “Color Management for Photographers" & "Photoshop CC Color Management/pluralsight"

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New Here ,
Jan 24, 2023 Jan 24, 2023

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1. V4 on the default setting in i1Studio.

2.https://www.color.org/whyusev4.xalter

3. But OK, I no need V4 profile for using in Ps ecosystem. I can't argued with that.

Adobe should warn about they system is not able to manage V4 icc profiles. This is their fault. They wasted a loads of my time. And yours as well.

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Community Expert ,
Jan 24, 2023 Jan 24, 2023

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quote

Adobe should warn about they system is not able to manage V4 icc profiles.


By @st-ati

 

I've tested v4  and Photoshop/ACR/Lightroom/Bridge all handled it well on my system. But there's a broader picture here involving the GPU and OS as well. Monitor profile conversions are performed in the GPU nowadays. Sometimes it doesn't work well, for whatever reason. I use v2 as standard, just to be safe and because v4 doesn't really have any advantages anyway.

 

LUT profiles is another risky proposition. Here I've seen some issues in Photoshop, mostly color banding in ProPhoto. That's symptomatic, because ProPhoto is so huge that the smallest inaccuracies, masked in smaller color spaces, get massively amplified. Though it has to be said that I did this testing a while ago, when Photoshop GPU code used the OpenGL APIs. It no longer does that, instead the OS-native APIs (Metal and DirectX) are used.

 

It's also a question if which software is actually writing the profile. Sometimes they can be a bit off-spec.

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LEGEND ,
Feb 08, 2023 Feb 08, 2023

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1. V4 on the default setting in i1Studio.

2.https://www.color.org/whyusev4.xalter

3. But OK, I no need V4 profile for using in Ps ecosystem. I can't argued with that.

Adobe should warn about they system is not able to manage V4 icc profiles. This is their fault. They wasted a loads of my time. And yours as well.


By @st-ati

1. Complain to X-rite for silly defaults. 

2. Without the PRMG, no advantage to V4. Click the link and read what the advantages would be if the Perceptual Reference Medium Gamut (PRMG) were used, then tell us which package builds V4 with PRMG. 

3. No, you don't need V4 profiles. No, it isn't Adobe's fault. It's those who make V4 profiles incorrectly or outside of spec. Some work without issue (again, without what they provide that would be useful, the PRMG), and some don't. Those that don't waste your time; don't use them!

Author “Color Management for Photographers" & "Photoshop CC Color Management/pluralsight"

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Community Expert ,
Jan 25, 2023 Jan 25, 2023

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I rechecked my Ps color management settings again and I find the "desaturate monitor color" box was checked.

 

By @st-ati

 

This also happened to me once. I can't imagine why anyone would want to use a feature like that, it must be a remnant from the days before color management. To make matters worse, it is set to 20% by default, and the percentage value is even highlighted when you open Color settings. The checkbox is unchecked by default, but if you inadvertently check it, you end up with reduced saturation.

To prevent this from happening again, I set it to 0%, unchecked the box, and clicked OK.

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Community Expert ,
Feb 06, 2023 Feb 06, 2023

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quote

I rechecked my Ps color management settings again and I find the "desaturate monitor color" box was checked.

 

By @st-ati

 

This also happened to me once. I can't imagine why anyone would want to use a feature like that, it must be a remnant from the days before color management.

By @Per Berntsen

 

Yes, that’s correct, Desaturate Monitor Colors is over 20 years old and was added during the time when very few people on Earth had a wide gamut display, so Mac and Windows did not yet have a way to deal with that using color management.

 

Today, assuming color management is properly set up, there is no reason and no advantage to use Desaturate Monitor Colors, so it should be disabled. The tool tip for that option even says it is “recommended for expert users only” which really means “you’d better have a darn good reason to turn this on or else don’t touch it” 🙂 But even then it’s probably outdated and of little use.

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Community Expert ,
Feb 16, 2023 Feb 16, 2023

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LATEST

@st-ati Actually I like and use Desaturate Monitor Colors, I find it useful to reveal out of gamut detail in areas of high saturation [even on a wide gamut screen], that way I know that detail can be saved by a bit of manual editing work.

BUTDesaturate Monitor Colors should never have been a hidden away checkbox that can be left on by accident, I want a notice popup in Photoshop that’s obvious to the user so they remember to disable it. Its far too easy to leave it activated in error.

 

BUT my 2C is that's not a good reason to remove the feature 

 

I hope this helps
neil barstow, colourmanagement net - adobe forum volunteer - co-author: 'getting colour right'
google me "neil barstow colourmanagement" for lots of free articles on colour management

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