Preparing files for print

[JKA@4153]

Hi everyone,

I was given a .icc profile from my printer and was told to convert to this profile after I'd finished my editing in RGB mode.

I was also given the following information:

General Specs for newsprint:
Colour should be CMYK. When converting RGB to CMYK, use the following Photoshop settings:
Ink Colour: Newsprint
Dot Gain: 30%
Separation Type: GCR
Black generation: Light
Total Ink Limit: 260%
UCA: 10%

I don't understand the above settings as I thought that all that information was captured in the .icc profile that I was supplied. This is my first experience in a colour managed workflow so I may be getting a bit confused. If the above settings are not in the .icc profile then where do I set them in Photoshop?

Would really appreciate any advice.

[Lou Dina]

George,

I'm not answering your question, so I hope you will bear with me.

To me, EPS is more of a legacy encoding and I never use it for anything. As mentioned earlier, EPS tags are not respected when placing into Quark or InDesign; they're ignored (or perhaps unseen). If you set up all your Adobe Apps to use the same RGB and CMYK space, (ARGB and US Web Coated SWOP are good general defaults, especially when you don't know where the job is going, or if your service provider is clueless), you should be fairly safe.

I usually have color management turned on in InDesign. If I know the exact destination press, and if they have a profile, or if I know they adhere to a standard, then I set those as the document defaults in the ID document. Then I place tagged PSD or TIFF files from photoshop, and tagged AI files from Illustrator. You cange change the color settings of any individual placed image from within ID, so you can change rendering intent, etc. Any elements created from within ID iteself will be in the document's default color space (ARGB or US Web Coated SWOP, in the above example). I usually package this and send the ID file and links to the service provider. IF I export to PDF, I use ID's Export command, Press Quality, and "leave color unchanged", assuming I have all my elements in ID set to the destination CMYK. Or, you can convert to the destination CMYK (such as US Web Coated SWOP) in the PDF export and include the profile. This will make sure all elements are in a single space. Works fine.

If you place an UNtagged file into ID, then ID will ASSIGN it's default profile. That's why it is good to have all your Adobe Color Settings synchronized and in the same color space.

If color management is OFF in ID, then whatever numbers are in your file will be sent to the RIP at the printer. Tags will be ignored on placed files. Then, the commercial printer will do whatever they normally do at their end (plate curves, etc).

Another option, is to convert to PDF and select a single destination color space, be NOT include tags. When your printer opens this un-color managed file, they won't know what the profiles are, so they will likely pass the numbers straight through their system, and you will get whatever the numbers are (based on their workflow).

I usually get to select my commercial printer, and only work with ones that know how to handle a color managed workflow. Our proofs are always very close, and the press sheet is usually very close as well.

I also agree with Peter, 350 TIL is a LOT of ink, and few presses and papers will do well with that much, though some can do it no problem. 300 TIL is usually plenty, and if you notice it anywhere it will be in the deepest blacks and shadows. The paper will have more influence than anything once you hit 300% ink. If you are working with a GOOD printer, who has a good sheetfed press that is properly maintained and set up, running good process control, and good coated stock, you can probably assume 320 to 330% total ink. But again, it will be noticeable mostly in the blacks and shadows.

Hope this helps and doesn't just frustrate you, since I side stepped your question a little bit.

Regards, Lou

[_g_ballard_]

Thanks, Lou, I always read your posts with interest and appreciate the time you take to move people forward in their approach.

Web versus Sheetfed:

I (and many people) are stuck with Converting to an Adobe canned CMYK profile and handing it off.

Those of us (like me) that have only a crude awareness of a Web press or Sheetfed press may be mislead by the names.

For example, I go into a print shop, look at their Photoshop Color Settings and ask them if they know their CMYK is based on Web press standards I usually follow up with the fact they have Sheetfed presses...

It just makes more (common) sense that if they have Sheetfed printing presses, they should be using Sheetfed CMYK color spaces because Web CMYK is not taking advantage of the machinery (limiting the ink to what, Web 240%? vs 320% Sheetfed?).

Next I usually ask them about their Photoshop working RGB (why sRGB) and broken Color Management Policies (but I won't go there here, suffice to say they don't have a clue what is going with their color miss-management, and how Adobe apps actually handle color).

How Adobe handles color:
>>If you place an UNtagged file into ID, then ID will ASSIGN it's default profile.

I can discuss HOW Photoshop handles color.

If you open an UNtagged CMYK file in Photoshop (Ps), Ps Assigns its default working RGB profile, true but only for source space-to-monitor Conversion (the actual CMYK numbers haven't been altered/changed at that point regardless of what CMYK profile I Assign and save).

There is no actual damage to my CMYK color until an actual Conversion takes place specifically to a print space (the Conversion to monitor space is irrelevant to my questions because the source profile is independent of monitor RGB and the monitor does not affect my original CMYK numbers, it is only displaying them).

The problems with InDesign (Id) and Acrobat (PDF):

The biggest problem I have is handing over a 80mb CMYK .tiff and having some clueless genius run it through a PDF default to produce a 3mb .jpg (by Adobe default).

But the PDF color issue is a lot more mysterious, and I haven't seen where anyone has ever explained it in lay terms, link by link.

For example, in still other words:

1) I place untagged CMYK in Id (at Id default settings).

2) I Com+E (Export) PDF (at PDF default settings).

Have my CMYK "numbers" been changed?

For some strange reason I think not regardless if PDF mistagged my CMYK with its default profile the PDF still possesses my original CMYK numbers.

The problem doesn't happen until until an actual Conversion takes place.

What happens after the PDF to produce the metal plates is a mystery if the wrong profile the PDF Assigned to my CMYK will hose my color or if my CMYK will pass my original numbers through to the plates.

+++++++

The only way [my] pea brain is going to understand this is to break down the process link by link...if I understood the question better I could probably ask the question a lot clearer.

[Guest]

Gary,

If you export a pdf from ID at the default settings, there is no color conversion, but as soon as you choose PDF/X-1A, which is the setting you need for print, then it immediately defaults to convert your file - to whatever is loaded in the Output setting at the time. There is a dropdown menu there to choose from. It looks like it picks up your Color Settings from ID and uses that but I haven't tried enough combinations to know for sure. Since I always convert every element prior to importing to ID, there is never any question and I check the Output tab and change it to Leave Color Unchanged.

Unfortunately this is a "feature", this automatically converting files when choosing X-1A that comes back to bite people in the ass, and if you or your printer don't know about it, it's bound to screw up your project. Or not.

[Lou Dina]

Gary (sorry if I got your name wrong...too much wine)

It just makes more (common) sense that if they have Sheetfed printing presses, they should be using Sheetfed CMYK color spaces because Web CMYK is not taking advantage of the machinery (limiting the ink to what, Web 240%? vs 320% Sheetfed?).

US Web Coated SWOPv2 is based on 300 TIL (240 TIL is typical of newsprint). US Sheetfed Coated has ink limits of 350%, which is generally a bit on the high side for even most sheetfed presses, and even that varies depending on the paper being used.

How Adobe handles color:

>If you place an UNtagged file into ID, then ID will ASSIGN it's default profile.

I can discuss HOW Photoshop handles color.

If you open an UNtagged CMYK file in Photoshop (Ps), Ps Assigns its default working RGB profile, true but only for source space-to-monitor Conversion (the actual CMYK numbers haven't been altered/changed at that point regardless of what CMYK profile I Assign and save).

There is no actual damage to my CMYK color until an actual Conversion takes place specifically to a print space (the Conversion to monitor space is irrelevant to my questions because the source profile is independent of monitor RGB and the monitor does not affect my original CMYK numbers, it is only displaying them).

The above is totally accurate.....BUT....if you have a CMYK file that was originally edited in US Web Coated SWOP space, save it UNtagged, then place that untagged CMYK file into InDesign, the file will be ASSIGNED the document CMYK space in ID. Let's assume the ID document is set to US Sheetfed Coated. No numbers are changed YET. But, if you send it to your service provider as is, they will have no choice but to assume your file's color space is US Sheetfed coated. And if you export to PDF, ID will tell Acrobat that the UNtagged file is US Sheetfed Coated. If you "leave colors unchanged", then the CMYK numbers pass straight through.

I'd rather place tagged files so ID isn't working blind. In fact, I'd prefer to place ALL images (PSD, TIF, AI, etc) tagged in the destination color space if I have a profile for the press. Let's assume that color space is US Web Coated SWOPv2. ID is set up with that profile and ALL components are in that space. If you export to PDF-x/1, you make sure US Web Coated SWOP is specified in your export settings, leave color unchanged, and all files will be sent, as is, to your PDF. The PDF will show the output intent as US Web Coated SWOP.

But the PDF color issue is a lot more mysterious, and I haven't seen where anyone has ever explained it in lay terms, link by link.

For example, in still other words:

1) I place untagged CMYK in Id (at Id default settings).

2) I Com+E (Export) PDF (at PDF default settings).

Have my CMYK "numbers" been changed?

For some strange reason I think not regardless if PDF mistagged my CMYK with its default profile the PDF still possesses my original CMYK numbers.

Well....you can set up Acrobat to leave colors unchanged, convert to profile, etc. Depending on your settings, you will get different results. If you DO place an untagged file into ID, just make sure the file was created using the same "default" CMYK setting, and you won't have a problem (at least in ID).

The most important thing is to communicate clearly with your printer. I'd ask what their ink limits are for the press and stock on which you will print. If it is less than 350, then the next question to ask is why they are using US Sheetfed Coated, which stipulates 350%. US Web Coated SWOP is the most widely used profile in this country, perhaps somewhat conservative for many sheetfed press conditions, but at least safe and fairly widely used. If you don't want your colors reseparated, tell the printer specifically. But make sure you are designing according to what they expect. And ALWAYS have them send you a full color contract proof for you to sign off on. That is your guide and theirs. They have to meet those colors (within tolerances set by SWOP, which are unfortunately, fairly liberal).

It gets complicated. Rick McCleary wrote a very nice book called CMYK 2.0, which addresses many of these questions. Gorgeous photography too. It's available from Amazon. It doesn't go into as much depth on color conversions as you probably want, but it is pretty clear. It also assumes you are dealing with a printer that isn't brain-dead or working the 'old way'.

Hope something here helps.

Lou

[_g_ballard_]

Thanks, I didn't want to do the PDF, and I didn't watch them do it, so I don't know, but they said they did my no compression settings.

You are saying (when everything has already been Converted):

InDesign: Command+E

Choose Adobe PDF Preset: PDF/X-1A:2001

Choose Output tab> Color> Color Conversion: "Leave Color Unchanged"

That still leaves PDD/X> Output Intent Profile Name
Any idea what that does (since there is no Off option)?

+++++++

I will add my No Compression setting for anyone trying to follow this.

Choose Compression tab (in Export Adobe PDF dialog window).

Then Compression> Color Images: Do Not Downsample
Compression: None

+++++++

This is the first real look I've done into this.

Let's say I had big book with all AdobeRGB tiffs placed in InDesign and I wanted to setup the PDF to do all the conversions to Press CMYK.

Would I:

Choose Adobe PDF Preset: PDF/X-1A:2001

Choose Output tab> Color> Color Conversion: "Convert to Destination"
and Destination: Press CMYK

That still leaves PDD/X> Output Intent Profile Name
Any idea what that does (since there is no Off option)?

[_g_ballard_]

Lou,

Thanks again, I need to absorb your latest post...I just don't trust people around here and simply want to have my CMYK numbers go to press which I think I get now (at least to handing off a good PDF).

But still, I've had printers drag my PDFs into Photoshop and print my vector jaggy.

Because these people don't know what a profile is, what their profile is, they are working in Adobe defaults or trying to "turn color management off".

The export Adobe PDF engine is a real monster...

[_g_ballard_]

>> If I place an EPS raster file (saved in Photoshop with a specific embedded profile) into Illustrator, its profile is not honored, meaning that the placed image's appearance is incorrect

You mean on the monitor, right?
>> Bottom line, the EPS format is to be altogether shunned in color managed workflows

Actually, I am using EPS specifically to take color management out of the job I already have my color the way I want it (my CMYK, my pixels and my vector) and don't want them messed with down stream.

[Guest]

>You mean on the monitor, right?

Yes.

>Actually, I am using EPS specifically to take color management out of the job I already have my color the way I want it (my CMYK, my pixels and my vector) and don't want them messed with down stream.

You could do that with TIFFs that are already correctly separated to the appropriate output profile *and* have an embedded profile.

If someone downstream chooses to strip the embedded profiles, the output will still be correct for the intended press, and if they honor the profiles it will still be correct. You "win" either way.

If you really cannot bring yourself to do that, you can still save those TIFFs as untagged. I think it would just be a good thing to move away from the EPS format altogether.

[Guest]

The way I see it is that you have no idea if your pixels are right or not at this point. I would be sending a tiff with embedded profile. What does their proof look like?

[_g_ballard_]

>> The way I see it is that you have no idea if your pixels are right or not at this point

Why would you see it like that?

I am on a hardware-calibrated Apple 30" screen and already proofed my color in Photoshop.
>> You could do that with TIFFs that are already correctly separated to the appropriate output profile *and* have an embedded profile.

Very true.
>> I think it would just be a good thing to move away from the EPS format altogether.

I don't have the background to argue otherwise you probably have good reasons for that advice yet there is no reason why a good eps file won't work (unless someone down stream messes with it).

[Guest]

>I don't have the background to argue otherwise you probably have good reasons for that advice yet there is no reason why a good eps file won't work (unless someone down stream messes with it).

No reason, true, but I'm making a point of best practices -- that it's more advisable to use TIFFs within color-managed workflows, and that I see the EPS format as obsolete by now.

As I said, I would make an exception only if a print provider *demands* that one use EPS files, for any reason they may have to ask for that. But, honestly, I have not met any such instance, yet.

[Lou Dina]

Gary,

PDF-x/1 is a standard group of PDF export settings widely used for jobs going to press. In order to conform, ALL components must be in a single CMYK color space, and that CMYK space must be shown in the PDF (output intent). Any CMYK elements in your ID document that are already in the destination space will be left along. Any RGB elements, or CMYK elements that are in a different CMYK space (or an assumed CMYK space that doesn't match the output intent) are converted to the output intent CMYK space on the way to PDF-land.

If your printer doesn't demand PDF-X/1 compliant files, you can use the Press Quality preset when exporting to PDF from ID. Leave the General, Marks & Bleeds, and Compression tabs alone. On the Output tab, set the color conversion to "No Color Conversion", and Profile Inclusion to "Don't Include Profiles". All components in your ID document will be sent to the PDF unchanged, even RGB elements and CMYK elements with a different CMYK space. No color profiles will be included, so the person on the receiving end won't know for sure what your CMYK profiles are, and they will be inclined to leave your files alone, lest they guess wrong. If you want your CMYK numbers honored, this is one way to approach it. But, be SURE to put a big note with the submission telling them not to screw with or convert your files....just print the numbers. And get a color proof and sign off before releasing for print. If the proof looks good, then it is their job to match it. If not, it means they are totally clueless, or you sent them numbers that don't jive with the the way their press is run. That's one reason so many people use US Web Coated SWOPv2 ...it is probably the most widely used "standard" in the US. Many people claim to print to that standard, but many of them really don't. Such is the current state of the industry as it SLOWLY tries to move forward from the old ways of doing things.

You CAN set compression to Do Not Downsample, but be sure your files are approximately the right rez. Normally, you don't want to send a 150 ppi or a 900 ppi file (at final image size) to the RIP when burning plates. Assuming a normal sheetfed press and line screen, you should be fine with resolutions between about 266 and 400 PPI.

Remember, PDF can create RGB documents for the web, inkjet output, press, etc.

Lou

[Guest]

"> The way I see it is that you have no idea if your pixels are right or not at this point
Why would you see it like that?

I am on a hardware-calibrated Apple 30" screen and already proofed my color in Photoshop."

Because you don't really know if you have the right output profile. You've only been guessing at that, so nothing else really matters at this point unless you're going to a press check and the pressman is able to push or pull his rig to conform to your file.

[_g_ballard_]

>> Because you don't really know if you have the right output profile. You've only been guessing at that,

That is the best guess I have available to me if he is using a high end 4-color sheetfed press on premium poster paper and if he is clueless about what profile his press is based on what's the alternative send him an "RGB" file with an embedded profile so the genius can ignore my profile because he "doesn't use profiles"

And because he has "turned colormanagement off" which means he will take a sledgehammer to my color to beat it up into his goofy work flow?  BTDT.
>> so nothing else really matters at this point unless you're going to a press check and the pressman is able to push or pull his rig to conform to your file.

I have faith, if they are savvy enough to follow my instructions send my eps files straight through, please he will be able to hit my mark, my Photoshop-Epson proof, because my file is correct and within his press tolerance.

[Guest]

How did this exchange make it here? You guys ("pfigen" and "g ballard") are not even talking to the author of the OP.

How does *he* profit from your conversation/altercation?

Perhaps you should just start your own thread.

[Guest]

So it took a left turn. Big deal. There's no altercation here at all. Perhaps it should have been a different thread but it wasn't. These things happen all the time. Besides, it's sort of related anyhow.

[Guest]

Dear "pfigen', you are always such a gentleman.

I bet it would kill you to say "sorry" and just move on...

[_g_ballard_]

Sorry Marco.

I got some very clear information out of this thread thanks!

[JKA@4153]

Hi,

Sorry to come back to this discussion. I'm at the point now where I've finished all the design work and I'm ready to make the pdf in Indesign. I've followed your advice by converting to profile in Photoshop. I placed this image into Illustrator and did more work on the layout. I also set the working space in Illustrator to the newspaper .icc profile. After finishing work in Illustrator I placed the .eps into Indesign. In Indesign, I have the CMYK Working space set to the Newspaper .icc profile and I also converted to profile in indesign (not sure if I needed to convert to profile in Indesign if the working space is set to the newspaper .icc profile??).

So now I'm at the stage where I need to pdf the file. I export to pdf and in the "general settings" I choose "create tagged pdf" (not sure if this has anything to do with the profile). Then under output I choose "No colour conversion" and also "Include all profiles".

Can you tell me if I have these settings correct? If yes, whereabouts in Acrobat can I ensure that the newspaper .icc profile has actually been embedded. Is there a way to verify this?

[Gernot_Hoffmann]

>If yes, whereabouts in Acrobat can I ensure
that the newspaper.icc profile has actually
been embedded. Is there a way to verify this?

Yes, please have a look here:
http://www.fho-emden.de/~hoffmann/colpdf27022008.pdf

It might be better to export as PDF/X-1a, define
newspaper.icc as Output Intent and embed the profile once.
At least one should take care, that all the single
CMYK images don't have embedded profiles.

Best regards --Gernot Hoffmann

[JKA@4153]

I have Acrobat 9 - your document gives instructions for Acrobat 7 so I'm still not sure where to find out if the .icc profile is embedded.

> It might be better to export as PDF/X-1a, define newspaper.icc as Output Intent and embed the profile once. At least one should take care, that all the single CMYK images don't have embedded profiles.

I'm also confused as to why you're saying to ensure that all single CMYK images don't have embedded profiles. I thought this was what I was supposed to do, i.e embed the profile in photoshop as a first step.

[Gernot_Hoffmann]

You are saying that the mentioned workflow is no more
valid for AcrobatPro 9 ? What's different ?

Yes, PDF/X-1a is ideal. Not a reason for confusion.
It's absolutely correct to use the same profile
for all conversions, but it's not necessary to embed
it in each image.

Best regards --Gernot Hoffmann

[JKA@4153]

> You are saying that the mentioned workflow is no more valid for AcrobatPro 9 ? What's different ?

There must be some misunderstanding here: My workflow involved exporting the pdf from Indesign with the profile embedded. I'm trying to find where exactly in Acrobat 9 I can confirm that the profile is actually embedded. I didn't find anything in the document link you provided that gives this information - unless i'm missing something?

In Acrobat 9, I can go to the Advanced menu > print production > preflight - but I can't find anything in this complicated dialogue box that allows me to check for the existence of an embedded profile. I just thought that someone may be familiar with Acrobat 9 and may know where I can check this kind of thing.

> Yes, PDF/X-1a is ideal. Not a reason for confusion. It's absolutely correct to use the same profile for all conversions, but it's not necessary to embed it in each image.

You say it's not necessary to embed it in each image. I was reading back at your post #22 and you were saying:

> Also a good solution, after soft-proofing the RGB images by Photoshop: use RGB images, make a PDF and convert this globally into the destination space by Acrobat Professional.

So clearly from the above quote, if I was to use that workflow I not only shouldn't necessarily embed any CMYK profile in any of the images, in fact the images shouldn't be CMYK at all - they should be RGB according to your post #22. If I understand the theory correctly, if I was to use that workflow and have CMYK images, the numbers would all change when I converted to profile within Acrobat Pro, right?

[Gernot_Hoffmann]

Nothing wrong in Post#22.

a) Convert everything from RGB to CMYK by PhS.
Keep the CMYK profile in mind, but don't embed
it in each image (the profile can be fairly large).
Export to PDF, preferably as PDF/X-1a with the
Profile as Output Intent, embedded once.
An Output Intent is used for the preview and as
an information. It not used for converting the
images into any other space.
b) Keep everything in your RGB space and embed the
profile in each image. These profiles are small.
Convert all RGB images by Acrobat Pro into CMYK,
assign this profile as Output Intent and embed
it in the PDF once. Save As by old or new name.

It would be really surprising, if Acrobat 9 shouldn't
offer something like page 7 here:
http://www.fho-emden.de/~hoffmann/colpdf27022008.pdf
Perhaps this information was missing:
An ICC color space refers to an image with assigned
ICC profile. Otherwise it's a Device Color space,
which means, that each device would interpret the
numbers somewhat different.
An available Output Intent is directly indicated (at least
in CS2 ).

Best regards --Gernot Hoffmann

[JKA@4153]

Okay so I found where I could check the profiles in Acrobat 9.

When I looked at what profiles were included in one particular file, it said

Device gray color space
ICCbased color space: ISONewspaper26v4
Indexed color space

When I clicked on the indexed color space and then the "Show in snap" button in order to find out which element was being tagged as indexed, I saw that it was a logo within the file. I checked out the logo and found out that it was actually a .psd file that was CMYK with transparency so I don't know why it's being tagged as index.

In another file, where I did the icc check in Acrobat I had the same result except the indexed element was a drop shadow that had been applied to an image in Illustrator.

This is all really confusing. Why are there so many different profiles when all I want is the Newspaper .icc.?

I also check a third file and the colour spaces were listed as follows:

ICCbased color space: ISONewspaper26v4
Separation color space: Black CMYK "ICC"
Alternate color space: ISONewspaper26v4

Again why are there two newspaper profiles in this file and what's the separation color space: Black CMYK "ICC"?