Tired of color desat when opening in Bridge/Lightroom. HELP!

I am going insane in my attempt to keep consistent color management through all areas. Everything was fine, color was great, prints were matched to calbration, monitor calibrated, and then....I rebooted the computer since I hadn't done so for a week, and when I restarted Bridge, and Lightroom (yields same results), the color immediately drains from the photos. Similar to the screenshot, however when I initially created this screenshot, Bridge was still accepting the color. Now, the desaturation exists in all Adobe programs. (PS CS5, camera raw, bridge , lightroom 3.  I feel like I'm going in circles here. I have no clue what could have changed with the reboot. One thing I have noticed is that in Window before a photo image is generated in a folder is shows as a paint pallette. And, when asked in Windows Color Management of the program I would like to use to install a profile, I am give Microsoft Color Management System (which to my understanding is designed for Vista or XP). Tried to delete the program but was denied. Not sure if that has anything to do with it either.

If you have any insight and can help me stop the madness I would be so greatly appreciative!!

Thanks!

Windows7

U2410 Dell Ultra Sharp Monitor

Photoshop CS5 64-bit

Adobe Lightroom 3

Camera RAW

Adobe Bridge

NIVIDIA FX 580

Screenshot.jpg

colormanagement.jpg

WindowsColorManagement.jpg

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Re: Tired of color desat when opening in Bridge/Lightroom. HELP!

Hi Connie,

Could you confirm that the colors in this image only look desaturated in the Adobe applications?  If you open this image in internet explorer, for example, does it appear to have the same appearance as it does inside of the Adobe applications now?

I notice that "Use Windows display calibration" is checked on in your screenshot.  Are you calibrating your monitor through the OS or using a 3rd party calibration device?  Would you mind confirming that the profile you expect to be applied to the monitor is set as the default in the "Devices" tab of the color management dialog window?  The profile should appear in the device's profile menu with "(default)" tagged to the end of its name.

Thanks!

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Re: Tired of color desat when opening in Bridge/Lightroom. HELP!

Thanks for your reply, MJorts!

The issue only occurs in Adobe products and which of course is the worst place for it to occur. I did uncheck the windows calibration box, but it did not make a difference.Yes, my calibrated profile is set to default for the monitor.

The calibration was fine, I had somehow fixed this issue a few weeks ago, but it returned when I rebooted the computer.

any ideas??

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Re: Tired of color desat when opening in Bridge/Lightroom. HELP!

Hi Connie,

Have you had any luck with this issue yet?

Could you tell me what type of tools you're using to calibrate your monitor?  I think a user mentioned this on a different thread, but it looks like this might be related to calibration issues with wide gamut monitors, which could have an effect on color managed applications.  Are you calibrating the monitor with a 3rd party calibration tool, or are you using a manufacturer supplied display profile?

Thanks

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Re: Tired of color desat when opening in Bridge/Lightroom. HELP!

Are your image files properly tagged?  I. e. do they have the correct color profile actually embedded in them?

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Re: Tired of color desat when opening in Bridge/Lightroom. HELP!

I'm not exactly sure of the answer to your question.

The color profile or the embedded color has never changed. By that I mean that I have never physically changed any in camera settings. There were no changes made to any of the software, monitor calibration, system color, etc... -This just occurred. It had happened once before (about 3 months ago) I was into about the 3rd week of working on my new system, everything had gone fine, and then out of no where, whenever I would load any photos into Bridge, or Lightroom the color would suck right out of the images.

I have posted at length all of the stratagies I have tried.http://forums.adobe.com/message/3249286#3249286

Right now, the "highest level" of Adobe support is searching for a solution. I was told last Monday that they would be back with me in 3 to 4 days. Today makes one week. This issue is not new to Adobe, it can be found on practically every photography forum online, and none of them has ever yielded a solution. It is very discouraging, and has paralyzed my productivity. What's worse, is trying to explain to my clients why I am unable to deliver their prints to them as promised. If adobe support doesn't understand the issue, how on earth could I expect a client to understand?

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Re: Tired of color desat when opening in Bridge/Lightroom. HELP!

Hi Connie,

I read the forum thread link you posted.  On the surface it sounds like your images are appearing less saturated in color managed applications because their embedded profiles are being respected and converted from the embedded profile to the monitor space instead of having the RGB numbers in the images interpreted directly to the monitor space.

This could still potentially explain the issue for both a wide-gamut and a non-wide gamut monitor across different OS's, although I would think it might be more pronounced on a wide-gamut monitor.

This could also occur in a situation where images are untagged.

Could you tell me whether you're images are tagged or untagged, and if they are tagged what color profile they are being tagged with?

Here's how you can tell whether something is tagged or not in Photoshop (this is just one of a few different methods for finding this):

1. Open your image.

2. Window > Info, or hit the F8 key to open the Info panel.

3. Click on the menu options button in the top right corner of the info panel (looks like a triangle pointing down with three horizontal lines next to it) and enter Panel Options...

4. Under the Status Information section, uncheck all of the boxes, and then only check on "Document Profile", hit [OK].

The info panel should now give you a readout of what your current document's profile is (it should say something like "Adobe RGB 1998" or "Untagged RGB (8-bit)" or "sRGB IEC61966-2.1").

Please let me know what profile your images have (or if they are untagged) by using this method.

Also, I've confirmed on my Windows 7 machine that the "Paint" program is a non-color managed application.  Could you try opening an image in Paint and comparing its appearance to Photoshop?

Thanks for your patience!  I can explain what ICC color profiles are a little later, but I'd like to see first if this might be your issue, or at least confirm that it definitely isn't your issue.

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Re: Tired of color desat when opening in Bridge/Lightroom. HELP!

Thank again, MJorts.

The info panel reads: Adobe RGB (1998) (16bpc)

Microsoft paint renders the same color as Windows. When viewing non-edited images, color appears normal in Paint and Windows folders.

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Re: Tired of color desat when opening in Bridge/Lightroom. HELP!

Thanks, Connie.

This confirms that your images are tagged with Adobe RGB, and is in agreement with you previously mentioning that you didn't change any of your color settings.

The fact that you've seen this color behavior "pop back up" in certain applications after not making any changes to your system or software is still a mystery to me, but otherwise this could be expected behavior, for the technical reason that I gave in the previous post.  Even if it's a situation where nothing is technically "broken" in your system, there could still be some color management changes made to help you get the results you expect and want, but I think we still need more information.  Could you help me with a few more questions?

What is the file format you save these in?  I think you mentioned DNG?  Were you able to open these 16-bit files in Paint with the current file format?

What is the final output in your workflow, the final image file type or media that you give to customers?  How do customers view this media?  Through a browser, their computer monitor?

You mentioned in a different post that you use Spyder 3 Elite to calibrate your monitors?  Do you still have the "default" monitor profiles that were assigned to your monitors before you calibrated them with the Spyder?  Also, I see that your 2nd monitor was just labeled as "Samsung", do you happen to have the full model name for your other monitor?

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Re: Tired of color desat when opening in Bridge/Lightroom. HELP!

My workflow typically consists of the following:

>Load NEF files from memory card directly into window folder, usually via Bridge to preview.

>I normally choose a NEF to open via Bridge, and then photo opens in ACR (Camera Raw)

>After basic adjustments, I open the photo in Photoshop CS5, apply edits and save as PSD

>Once I complete a session of photos, I batch process using "save for the web" srgb in order to post photos online for clients.

>If the photos are to be printed, then I wll batch process the PSD's as JPEG @ 10 quality.

*I again this morning calibrated my monitor with the Spyder3 Elite. Confirmed that the profile is set to default in the Color Management in Windows, for my Dell u2410 monitor. The profile is the only profile I have listed in Devices for the Dell monitor.

The secondary monitor is not used with this system. I had loaded the photos onto my previous computer with XP and CS3 photoshop to see if that made a difference, which it did not, and I used a different monitor when doing so.

I'm not exactly sure if I still have the Dell factory profile file, but I can re-install it.

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Re: Tired of color desat when opening in Bridge/Lightroom. HELP!

Hmmm,

The calibrated profile is probably fine, you could verify this by just unchecking the "Use my settings for this device" box in the Windows Color Management dialog, then close the dialog and perform the same comparison tests you've been doing.  This will use whatever the Windows default is ("default" meaning letting the OS choose your monitor's profile instead of having you manually select another to use as the "default", Windows color management wording is weird...)

I just recently got an HP Dreamcolor, another wide-gamut monitor, and I confirmed a similar behavior to what you're seeing by opening an untagged RGB image in Photoshop and then going to Edit > Color Settings and switching the Color Settings File (CSF) from North American Standard 2 to Monitor Color, I just kept the Color Settings dialog open with the preview checked on so I could see the color change switch on the fly.

What this test did was show me a comparison of the untagged image's RGB color values interpreted through sRGB space (North American Standard 2) vs. being interpreted directly by the monitor's color space (Monitor Color).  When interpreted directly through the monitor, the image's appearance was much more saturated in color.

If your final output is the web, then embedding sRGB in your images is a safe bet (note that if you're using Save for Web, there are separate options to just convert the images to sRGB and leave them untagged vs. converting to sRGB and tagging them with sRGB, so that color managed applications will know that the RGB numbers in your images are meant to be interpreted through the sRGB color space.)

Color managment can be confusing, but you intuited the basics of it closely when you guessed that your images had some type of color "skin" attached to them.  This is basically what embedded profiles do, they create a meaning for the RGB numbers inside of your images, and allow color managed applications to detect what that meaning is and apply it properly for display.

RGB numbers are going to be displayed whether they have a specific meaning attached to them or not.  Hence an untagged image will just have its RGB numbers interpreted directly through the monitor space, which means the interpretation of these image colors is proprietary, its appearance will be unique to the RGB output signals of the monitor, and will look different when those same RGB values are used through the output signal of a different monitor.

What non-color managed applications basically do is treat every image as untagged, because they can't read or understand the meaning that's embedded in them through the color profile.

Since your final output is a web browser, your web browser would have to be a color managed browser to view images with embedded profiles correctly.  Apple Safari and the latest version of Mozilla Firefox both have color management and have it turned on by default.  Internet Explorer I believe is still unmanaged, and Google Chrome I'm not sure about.

If this is the correct behavior for what's happening with your setup, then a potential workaround would be to convert your final images in sRGB and then tell your customers to use a color managed web browser to at least have a chance at viewing colors close to what you're seeing in Photoshop (different monitors will still show variations still, but you'll have a much better chance with a color managed browser).

sRGB was traditionally associated with web images because monitors used to give a fairly close interpretation even if displayed through a non-color managed application.  Maybe that's not the case anymore with newer monitors...

Sorry for the length, but if this works, it will allow you to at least get your colors to a known state, so that if things still appear desaturated, but you know your customers will see the same thing, you'll be able to use color adjustments to give your images the look you want (there's other options, like using Prophoto RGB instead of Adobe RGB for your assigning profiles to your raw images, but that might require more explanation).

Hope this helps!  If you have more questions feel free to ask, and if you think the issue is something different, I'd be curious to know and investigate this further.

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Re: Tired of color desat when opening in Bridge/Lightroom. HELP!

Your kindness and help is greatly appreciated, and a welcome change from what I have experienced on another thread within Adobe http://forums.adobe.com/message/3264010#3264010

Your explanation was fantastic, and I believe I have understand the concept. Unfortunately, I don't believe this is my resolution. I'm starting to wonder if there is one at all at this point. I believe I was too vague in my explanation of my final output for clients.

-Once I have completed all edit in Photoshop. I save the file as a high resolution jpeg (which is I believe has the color settings/profile that are set in Photoshop, which is Adobe RGB (1998). These are the files that are used to when ordering prints from my lab, and or printing to CD for copyright release to clients.

-I only convert to 'save for the web" srgb in order to upload to the web for online viewing.

-Unfortuantley, I cannot do any editing in any color managed software because the colors I see in these programs, which of course is the only way to edit, are completely incorrect.

Thanks you again, for your patience and your help.

~Connie

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Re: Tired of color desat when opening in Bridge/Lightroom. HELP!

I discovered something interesting last night that I hadn't noticed before, and I'm praying this is the problem. I normally view photos in Bridge using the "Essentials" workspace, which only shows the file name, and the photo thumbnail. Well, last night I was hitting different tabs and ended up choosing the Metadata workspace with content. Interestingly enough, in the file properties to in the left metadata window, the files reads:

Color mode: RGB

Color Profile: Adobe RGB (1998)

>In the content in the large pane, the photos read untagged undercolor profile.

However, when opened in ACR, the file reads Adobe RGB (1998), and reveals the same color profile in Photoshop, when using the info.

I proceeded to look back over all the files on my system, and all view generally the same way in Bridge, however some show color mode:RGB color profile:adobe rgb with the color profile in the content window showing "untagged".

**This scenario is very random, as some psd.show untagged, yet are tagged when opned in photoshop. Some NEF's read color mode:RGB and color profile untagged. It's really quite odd.

Could this be it? And if so, how on earth can I assign a profile to the 1,000s of photos on my system?

thanks!!

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Re: Tired of color desat when opening in Bridge/Lightroom. HELP!

hi, i couldn't follow this thread, but if you want another approach, please go here

http://www.gballard.net/photoshop/pdi_download/

and download the ProPhotoRGB test image (it will be in a 15mb .zip)

open the ProPhotoRGB (ppRGB) file in your apps and let me know which apps have the problem

tip:

also drag the ppRGB .jpg icon into your open Web browser windows (in addition to IE, use a color managed Web browser like latest Firefox and/or Apple Safari)

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Re: Tired of color desat when opening in Bridge/Lightroom. HELP!

Of course (for anyone following this thread), WHACKED RGB is an even more dramatic tool to troubleshoot this type of problem (I just added a Whacked RGB print resolution file to my above download link):

Tagged with embedded profile WhackedRGB.icc:

WhackedRGB_Tagged.jpg

Exact same file except its embedded profile has been stripped:

WhackedRGB_Untagged.jpg

If you are using a color-managed Web browser the difference between tagged and untagged should be dramatic (very bluish)...if you are using an unmanaged browser, both files will look exactly the same (because they are both having the same default profile applied).

My point is: drop these files into your problem apps and see what's going on...

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Re: Tired of color desat when opening in Bridge/Lightroom. HELP!

Yeah, nice play with the cross color space images, but with all respect gator, you should have read the whole thread.

Connie's problem are not non color managed apps, her problem are color managed apps (especially Adobe apps), respectively those who pretend they are.

Bridge f.e. is not CMed; not in the sense PS is.

For the following test you need to have a wide-gamut monitor with a generic or profiled monitor profile loaded.

You won't see much of a difference on a non wide-gamut monitor when going through this:

Make yourself a new folder (for example Gator) and put a RAW to it. Open Bridge and develope the RAW as you like. Leave it open in PS. Open MiniBridge and make sure the color management is enabled in its preferences.

You'll get something similar like this:

bridge1..jpg

What you se is a NEF (DSC_4051.NEF) with ACRs "vivid" camera preset assigned, developed to the ProPhoto Colorspace. PS/MB/Bridge.

Now edit the image in PS, resize it to a width with is similar to the width of your monitor. Make it 8 bit or when on CS5 just save it as JPEG. Make sure its name is like that of the full RAW image name, including the suffix (NEF or CR2, etc)  => f.e. imagename.NEF.jpg. For the NEF shown it should be saved as DSC_4051.NEF.JPG

Find your Bridge cache folder. In there, below \1024, you find a folder which starts with "Gator...." f.e. P:\Bridgecache\1024\GatorCC153054. Copy the saved image to it. Wait a bit or close and restart Bridge, but don't purge cache.

You'll get something like this:

bridge2..jpg

What happend? Seems Bridge always assumes that it would be fed with sRGBs. Of course it does so, because an engine (or Bridge itself) in the background interprets the images (NEF, PSD, etc. pp.), means its assigns ACR settings respectively the camera styles, assigning the monitor profile to it and saves all that as a JPEG in sRGB in Bridges cache directory.

IMHO. I might be wrong here regarding the details - so please understand this and the following statement as assumptions...

Bridge than is reading its cached sRGB and assigns monitor profile again (?) - I can't tell at the moment and have to think about this - but its obvious that something strange is going on here ....

Anyway. Per default there are two cached previews for Bridge, a third will be generated when you switch to full screen preview and zoom in.

Since we only exchanged the 1024px preview, you will see different previews when switching to full screen or, when f.e. in filmstrip, you minimize the previews until those cached images from the /240 folder are used.

Now assign the monitor profile to the image in PS:

bridge3..jpg

Close, but the MB preview still looks different. Not sure if this is visible on every monitor: the MB preview in the middle has a "colder" apperance, compared to what is seen in PS and Bridge.

Now click on the most upper part of the MB window and hold it or move the window a bit and you get this:

bridge4..jpg

Now the "warmth" is almost the same on all previews. As soon you lift your finger and release the MB window, it is back to the colder appearance.

So taking all this together, can we tell this is a consistent and reliable color management? So far I believe not - haven't even checked yet, what LR is doing on this...

What happens to images which previously were processed on a "normal" sRGB and the cache never was rebuild?  And even when the cache was purged after a new monitor come into place and a monitor profile was assigned, what happens to images developed to the ProPhoto color space, but saved without an embedded profile and for a some reason have been tagged as sRGB or aRGB?

Which can happend, we never know what developers do assign or do forget to remove, right?

I'm talking about the "InteropIndex" here. When this EXIF tag is set f.e. to sRGB or aRGB (no embedded color profile) but the image was developed f.e. to ProPhoto, Bridges metadata view shows that the image is in sRGB and of course it shows it desaturated as well 😞

bridge5..jpg

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Re: Tired of color desat when opening in Bridge/Lightroom. HELP!

you should have read the whole thread.

Fair statement; but I think the phenomenon becomes a bit easier to observe (and articulate) when a user understands the color-management basics (and I didn't read that into the OP).

In any case, the WhackedRGB colorspace unmistakenly jumps out when the profile is ignored or wrongly assumed — this is a very valuable teaching and troubleshooting tool — with Whacked RGB it is evident color management is either working or it is not.

The first thing I would look at is how the suspect app deals with profiles.

Bridge and Photoshop should be displaying the tagged WhackedRGB files properly every time.

Bridge should be displaying the untagged WhackedRGB with the hard blue cast (because Bridge assumes sRGB on untagged files).

Photoshop can display Whacked RGB properly IF the user ASSIGNS WhackedRGB...

I don't know about Lightroom, but it should be obvious with the two WhackedRGB files.

That is where I would have went with this.

If that's not hapening the buggy/corruption theory would be next (if the apps were displaying as expected or is something else is happening).

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Re: Tired of color desat when opening in Bridge/Lightroom. HELP!

The first thing I would look at is how the suspect app deals with profiles.

Bridge,  PS, LR, Safari, FF does, IE <9 and Chrome does not show the whacked  image (embedded profile) right. As it was to expect. Same with the  untagged image. Just a reminder: you pointed Connie in another forum to Gballards website before.

We did all those tests which can be found around before, and in the Bridge Forum Connie told:

I had two different adobe support tech's take control of my system for over 2 hrs and neither could understand why or how this was happening since all of the settings, and profiles were set appropriately.

so at least they considered this as an issue as well or never have seen this kind of desaturation themself before.

Lately I believe there is no "real" problem with Connies computer.

Aside the glitches with Bridges cache, Connie was used to a sRGB system before. F.e. sRGB images processed on a non wide-gamut system look oversaturated on non managed apps and a bit desaturated with managed apps, when viewed on a wide-gamut system. Which is what she gets.

She worked for weeks with this new system, even profiled the monitor.  But I believe she still worked in the sRGB world for those weeks and everything was fine, until - after a reboot - Spyder's LUT loader (or WCS's LUT loader) started to load the calibrated profile.

At least I found both LUT loader running, when I have been remotely on her system and there was another loader installed: quickgamma.

Guess Connie installed the latter, because she didn't get any help and tried to solve the issue on her own, reading the hints and tipps in internet, installing other software - and maybe she made it worse by this.

What happend to the images she processed before she rebooted her new system, only can be guessed. She might have had the monitor set to aRGB, but using sRGB in Windows. She sometimes have saved images tagged, but with no embedded profile. She might have assigned or converted back and forth with different profiles in PS respectively by using LR and PS.All by not being aware about the consequences it has when leaving the sRGB world.

Anyway - when listening to reports user provided to us, we never can be sure they were achieved by the same system settings.  Will say, when we ask an user today to check this and that, the results reported back might not fit to those results we got yesterday, because in meantime (compared, to yesterdays configuration) they have been altered by the user and today results are different..

In other words: we never know what a user have screwed up in meantime 😉 By this our assumptions might be wrong and we might lead the user to do even worse.

Good example are those three LUT-/gammaloaders: which was active and which profile was loaded when a test was done we asked for? Under which condition images have been posted here?

The only way to be sure is by logging in and checking all settings, respectively set the system back to zero (sRGB etc. pp.) and start over. Even than we can't see the hardware settings, f.e. if the monitor was set to Standard, sRGB or aRGB mode.

But even by doing so (setting her system back to sRGB and than configured it for wide-gamut) I was (and I'm still) surprised, that my images look desaturated on her system as well.

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Re: Tired of color desat when opening in Bridge/Lightroom. HELP!

Joerg,

I want to thank again for you efforts to help me resolve this issue, which far exceed those by Adobe. Their weekly patronizing email which only repeats itself has done nothing to help. I have pointed them to this thread so that they will have full understanding of every step that has been undertaken, which they say that they have read, but I have my reservations as to whether they have actually done so.

I continue to work on the iMac without issue (knock on wood), and I'm hoping to here from my computer guy as to what he has discovered, if anything, in his efforts to "unbuild" and rebuild the pc. Oddly enough, my older system (the one used prior to the new build in September) that I had also attempted to edit on still holds the desaturation issues, which I suppose it always will until, if ever there is a resolution to the problem.

If nothing else Joerg,   if nothing else at least you validated me by confirming that you saw this issue first hand. I admittedly have little computer programing knowledge, and before this issue the only the I knew about color management was to that I needed to keep the monitor calibrated, and that images need to be saved in srgb or adobe rgb 1998 for my lab printing.

Even if, by some miracle Joey (my pc builder) is able to clear the system of this issue, I still really feel that Adobe needs to thoroughly investigate this issue, and find a solution for it. I have no idea what the catalyst of the issue is, but I feel that Adobe should be concerned enough about it to invest some time and resources into it, beings that every single incident I've discovered in forums all over the internet have one single thing in common>>>>>Adobe editing, imaging software. If nothing else, they could disprove this assumption and place the responsibility where it belongs (Microsoft, Dell, Samsung, the mouse, the keyboard??) However, I believe the issue is so vast, that they choose to side-step it each time leaving their customers holding the bag, only to shell out more cash for another system, or to except the issue and somehow work around it. For me, the latter was not an option as I need to know the authenticity of factors during editing, not after editing and saving the image.

For those interested, here are the facts as I see them (Joerg, please correct me if I've missed something, which you know well that I can easily do, lol)

The System:

(Old system)Prior to my new PC build, I had never encountered this issue on my previous system which is:

  • Dell Pentium 4, 3.2ghz, 3.00 GB RAM; Windows XP 32-bit, NVidia GeForce 8400 GS graphics card. using a Samsung 226BW, S-series monitor.. Adobe Photoshop CS3 (only used Photoshop and Bridge. -Never Lightroom)

New system began using September 16th, 2010, and the system issue initially occurred:

  • Custom build- AMD Phenom II X6 1090T 6-core, Asus 880G HDMI SATA 6Gb/s USB 3.0 ATX CrossFireX, Windows 64-bit Professional; Western Digital VelociRaptor 150GB internal drive,Western Digital Black Caviar 2TB 7200 64MB Cache SATA 3.0Gb/s internal drive; Dell U2410 monitor. Adobe Photoshop CS5, Bridge & Lightroom (use all 3 programs, but primarily Bridge & Photoshop, ACR)

Nikon D300 (I shoot RAW always)

Nikon D70

**The issue/bug: Color (specifically, reds) are absent from images. This is not a slight desaturation as can be expected when viewing NEFs, this is the obvious removal of color from the images. -It is as if the color management is in reverse, only exhibiting true information in NON-color managed programs. Images load into Bridge, Lightroom, Photoshop and ACR exactly as they would if loading images onto a non-color managed internet browser in any colorspace that is not sRGB.

I am only able to view the authentic image outside and after blindly applying edits in Photoshop, when same in sRGB for the web. Which obviously is reverse of what is should be.

The Facts as I know them:

  • About one week into using the new system, a similar issue presented itself, but only in ACR & Photoshop. However, the issue disappeared as quickly as it appeared (within days)
  • Issue began Oct 27th, after a standard Windows update re-boot. I immediately began scouring the internet for help. Discovered dozens of instances of this very issue on a vast array of forums. Issue is reported occurring on Adobe CS2, CS2, CS4, CS5. Found reports of issue displaying on a vast array of computer brands, and monitors (wide-gamut, and ips panels).
  • One piece of hardware did seem to appear quite often with this issue, whether it's of any prevalence I am not sure. NVIDIA graphics cards.
  • I first reported my issue to Adobe via phone on October 27th.
  • Adobe customer support spent about 2 hours remotely checking my settings (which were correct for all workspaces, in all programs). After, an unsuccessful atempt at a resolution, the tech referred me to a supervisor or higher level tech. Again, an unsuccessful attempt. I was informed that they had exhausted all troubleshooting methods (which was not true, because the tech kept repeatedly being disconnected on his end from the remote interface and actually gave up on the steps that he had attempted to do). I again was told that the matter would be sent to the highest level Adobe engeineers and that I would be contacted in 3-4 days. I was not contacted again until November 12th (2 weeks after my initial call) and that was via email and only to ask the same questions that I had previously been asked.
  • Adobe has called (4 weeks after my initial call, and several unhappy clients filling my inbox, along with the vanishing 7 yr phenomenal reputation that I have worked so hard to establish)  2-3 times within the last week, however because the computer is now being re-built I have no access to the issue.

Troubleshooting steps thus far:

  • Reset preference in all Adobe Programs
  • Uninstalled and reinstalled all Adobe software
  • Changed color profiles to every single one available in Windows, and in Photoshop with no change.
  • Tried loading the same photos from an external drive to my older system and samsung monitor. Using CS3--The issue followed
  • Uninstalled and reinstalled monitor and video card drivers, and updates. -No change
  • Tried every color mode option available on the Dell U2410 external button controls.
  • Monitor had been calibrated using Spyder 2 with update, with the monitor color mode set to Standard Mode.
  • Purchased the new Spyder 3Elite, updated to 4.o with monitor color mode in each of the mode available. -No change
  • Removed the calibration complete and tried the monitor color modes available with the Windows color profile set to factory default profile, as well as sRGB.
  • Joerg spent a total of around 8 hours over a few days remotely testing different variables on my system, as well as recreating the issue on his own.
  • Purged caches

I'm sure there are several that I have forgotten to speak about, but this provides a good detail of all thus far.

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Re: Tired of color desat when opening in Bridge/Lightroom. HELP!

only exhibiting true information in NON-color managed programs


what monitor profile are you using

to get this info from Photoshop:

Edit> Color Settings> Working Spaces: click on RGB and expand your choices (as in my screenshot)

then click on Monitor RGB (to highlight it) and take a screen shot (like this):

MonitorRGB.jpg

then post it here

also please post a screen shot of your Color Settings

+++++++

where I am going is that "color only looks bad in color-managed apps" is classic bad monitor profile symptom

classic case study:

www.gballard.net/windows_srgb/

PS

if you are using a wide gamut monitor, try doing the sRGB test using a standard gamut monitor (because i think the wide gamut monitor is only confusing everyone)

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Re: Tired of color desat when opening in Bridge/Lightroom. HELP!

what monitor profile are you using

where I am going is that "color only looks bad in color-managed apps" is classic bad monitor profile symptom

Yes, I thought the same. We (in case its not obvious yet - I'm Joerg) tried the generic DELL profile coming with the CD, my calibrated profile, from the same monitor modell just to see if it makes a differences, sRGB, etc. pp. - as Connie told, name it and we tried.

If you would have taken the effort and read Connies older posts (and her last in detail), you would have found out about her former settings, which were fine at that time.The only thing she/we didn't tried so far, is to check on a fresh installed Windows 7 and to exchange the video card.

Sorry when sounding harsh, but I feeel Connie is chased around in a circle right now, leading to nothing.

A word to the Adobe techs which were working remotely on her system: for whatever reason one of them moved the complete 32bit CS5 folder to somewhere else and left it there - Connie what was the location it was moved to?

Very clever - by this a normal user would have had the next issue soon, when trying to launch CS5 32bit next time. Even when it was meant to make sure he was always testing with the same settings (those of CS 64bit) and not accidentally launching CS5 32bit with different settings - leaving a customer system like this is absolutely unacceptable.

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Re: Tired of color desat when opening in Bridge/Lightroom. HELP!

Sorry when sounding harsh

No apology needed for me...but for other people who may stumble across this thread because they, too, are stumped why "color desats" in some of their applications and not others:

The basic theory and troubleshooting are (in most cases) no way as complicated and/or hopeless as presented in this thread.

The OP's most recent statement that only "NON-color managed programs" display color properly points directly to a bad monitor profile (or a basic mix-up of how profiles work).

Getting the profiles in order (with a known good test image) and ruling out a bad monitor profile should take a user less than 15 minutes.

If color-managed apps like Photoshop are still not displaying proper saturation (on known good files) after the profiles are confirmed — it's going to be either how the software is misconfigured, haxied or corrupted, or bad/incompatible hardware.

But agreed, it sounds like a fresh installed Windows 7 and to exchange the video card are decisive steps to rule out the video card and install.

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Re: Tired of color desat when opening in Bridge/Lightroom. HELP!

gator soup..Personally, I believe the only apology regarding this thread or any of the information regarding it should be from Adobe due to their lack of customer support for their products. it is doubtful that anyone reading this thread will find it of any use, just as none of the dozens of similar threads found regarding this issue throughout the internet have.

Gator soup, I invite you to take a look at my system yourself, I would love for you to prove me wrong. Perhaps, Adobe has adopted this mindset as well with each of the incidents, and has immaturely placed the blame on the operator. Albeit, this is the case 99% of the time, however....that other one percent of us who depend on a product for our livelihood and a product that we have invested our time and money into, deserve the respect of solid, trustworthy customer support.

As stated previously, it has been four weeks since this case was opened with Adobe, and here I sit 4 weeks later no closer to a solution than I was then. Four weeks=4 weeks out of work=4 weeks of phone calls and emails from clients wanting their photos=a 7 yr impeccable reputation,now leaving me fearful to check my inbox and voicemail due to disappointed clients=having to resort to buying a Mac just on the off chance the color issue would not follow the photos (It worked)=I just spent $2000 two months ago on a brand new system=I had to go out and purchase a Mac for $2000 just because it was my only solution to being able to work, and the only option I have to keep from completely shutting the doors on my business.=staying up every night 3 or 4am trying to catch up on the mounds of photos that await me. .....this isn't even the half of the damage this issue had caused me in every aspect of my life, personally and professionally.

So, to Adobe I may just be that one %, but I am not a percentage, I am a business owner, photographer, mother, wife, and friend...and even more than that I am a person, not a percentage.

Furthermore, Gator Soup....at least Joerg took the time (actually a lot of time) to at least offer his help and skill. Joerg, does not have a stake in this, I did not purchase a product from him. He to my knowledge doesn't work for Adobe, yet, he offered his time, that is a hell of lot more than I've gotten from Adobe or anyone else for that matter! So, to even hint that he possibly should apologize for future readers of this thread is completely disrespectful,.

I feel that your statement is presumptuous, and arrogant. You should not speak so matter of factually, about which you have yet to test for yourself.

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Re: Tired of color desat when opening in Bridge/Lightroom. HELP!

G,

Over the years I learned lo live with the reality that it's futile to try to help users with this particular color management issue.  Their level of frustration is so high that they ultimately become abusive to those trying to help them.  Both you and I have tried numerous times, and only succeed in cases involving an open-minded user genuinely seeking help.

As I've said many times, the more rabid the rant, the greater the probability of PEBKAC.

In this case I've followed the discussion carefully and stayed away because of two factors I would rather not touch with the proverbial ten-foot pole, namely MS Windows and a mediocre Dell wide-gamut monitor.  I would not wish either of those to an enemy.

____________

Wo Tai Lao Le

我太老了

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Re: Tired of color desat when opening in Bridge/Lightroom. HELP!

Connie and Joerg,

You obviously don't know who »Gator Soup« is, and that's understandable.  Allow me to assure you that he is one of the most helpful contributors to the topic of Color Management not just in this forum but in the entire Internet.

More I cannot say because I respect Gator Soup's confidence and because my own user ID simply means Too Old and my signature "I Am Too Old", but your abusive post is totally misplaced.  Sorry.

Connie definitely has a monitor profile problem or the wrong Color Conversion Engine selected, and I'm sorry I can't help you directly because I am not a willing Windows user (though at times I am forced to be one) and have an abysmally low opinion of Dell wide-gamut profiles, particularly the model involved in this discussion.

Connie should enjoy her new Mac tremendously, particularly if she also got an Apple monitor.  Just make sure Photoshop is set to ACE (Adobe Color Engine) and NOT to Apple's color engine, Color Sync.

Finally, I agree with Connie's low opinion of Adobe's customer support.  Adobe is nothing like the corporation it was before becoming the current elephantine bureaucracy it is now, particularly after its Macromediatization.

____________

Wo Tai Lao Le

我太老了

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Re: Tired of color desat when opening in Bridge/Lightroom. HELP!

The same exact thing is happening to me. The "domino" effect of saturation going out happened.

I tried the following for troubleshooting:

I rebooted the computer.

I unplugged and replugged in the monitor cable.

I installed adobe updates

I deleted all the files, and re-downloaded all the image files.

I went in to the camera raw settings in photoshop and bridge and made sure they were matching

I looked at the calibration of the monitor, but i know it’s not the monitor because the image looks fine in “windows picture viewer” application.

If I minimize bridge and then maximize, the image will look correctly saturated, but when I click my mouse, or move the window, it returns to being desaturated and has a color shift.

problem2.jpg

It seems like a bug to me because all the profiles match.  I'm really not sure what to do here.

--Paige

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Re: Tired of color desat when opening in Bridge/Lightroom. HELP!

Paige,

You apparently didn't go to the link provided above.  It's the Camera Raw Preferences from the Edit menu.  No rebooting necessary, no unplugging, and not a calibration issue.  Here is the dialog box:

Capture.JPG

Just make sure you have jpeg and tiff support disabled as shown.

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Re: Tired of color desat when opening in Bridge/Lightroom. HELP!

Chris,

This did not fix the problem.

Thanks,

Paige

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Re: Tired of color desat when opening in Bridge/Lightroom. HELP!

Paige,

Another way of phrasing Andrew Rodney's most authoritative comments would be to say is that if your monitor has not been accurately calibrated and profiled, then your monitor profile is indeed causing your problem.  Note the conditional "if " in the preceding sentence.

You can never judge the true colors of an image in a non-color managed application, such as Windows Picture Viewer.  You can only evaluate the colors using an accurately calibrated and profiled monitor in a color-managed application like Photoshop.

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Re: Tired of color desat when opening in Bridge/Lightroom. HELP!

Adobe Community Professional , May 26, 2012

I would agree with all that if it wasn't for the fact that Windows Photo Viewer is fully color managed. Not only does it honor the embedded profile, but it also converts to the monitor profile. It has been color managed since Vista, when it was called Windows Photo Gallery. In XP, however, it was not color managed.

But there could still be a problem with the profile, with Photo Viewer not reading all the properties of the profile.

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Re: Tired of color desat when opening in Bridge/Lightroom. HELP!

here's what I found through various tests regarding Windows Photo Viewer on Win 7:

> as D Fosse stated, the general Windows Photo Viewer (open image via WPV) is color managed. If an image is untagged it will be displayed via sRGB (unfortunately not your default system profile, which could be your custom calibration profile)

> Windows Photo Viewer in SLIDESHOW MODE (open image in WPV and then click the large center Slideshow button) is non-color managed and will display images via your default system profile, the same applies to MS Paint and Windows explorer thumbnails

So on a wide gamut display, soft proofing an image in PS via your monitor RGB has the same appearance as that image in WPV in Slideshow mode or MS Paint, which is more saturated...

The above information is valid for  ICC v2 profiles - Windows has issues with ICC v4 profiles...

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Re: Tired of color desat when opening in Bridge/Lightroom. HELP!

I have a similar problem in this conversation http://forums.adobe.com/message/4757046#4757046

Did you resolve it?

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Re: Tired of color desat when opening in Bridge/Lightroom. HELP!

Adobe Community Professional , Oct 16, 2012

Iron_Mike wrote:

here's what I found through various tests regarding Windows Photo Viewer on Win 7:

> as D Fosse stated, the general Windows Photo Viewer (open image via WPV) is color managed. If an image is untagged it will be displayed via sRGB (unfortunately not your default system profile, which could be your custom calibration profile)

That's a problem because assigning or assuming sRGB may or may not be the right assumption for this untagged image. On Mac, several OS app's assume untagged doc's are in display RGB (based on your display profile). Well depending on what version of Mac OS you are running. Apple seems to move all over the map here. Anyway, the best way to be working here is without using untagged documents !

So on a wide gamut display, soft proofing an image in PS via your monitor RGB has the same appearance as that image in WPV in Slideshow mode or MS Paint, which is more saturated...

Which is a process whereby you make PS provided an incorrect preview to match the other incorrect preview. If you look at the soft proof options, you'll see Monitor RGB (use your specific display profile) or Legacy Macintosh or Internet (sRGB).

The problem with an untagged doc is even a color managed app has to make an assumption of the scale of the RGB numbers (are they sRGB, ProPhoto, display RGB, or any other flavor of RGB). When the assumption is correct, you should get a match.

If the image is tagged in sRGB and you use your display profile for soft proofing (Monitor RGB), the preview is wrong! It looks way over saturated on a wide gamut display. The image is in sRGB but you're telling Photoshop to show you how those numbers should appear if they were the display RGB which is wide gamut, thus over saturated. And if you opened the same image in a non ICC aware app, it would look very similar. If you assumed display RGB here, instead of the correct assumption (sRGB), again, incorrect preview that is over saturated.

This is a 'problem' with Wide Gamut displays in an sRGB centric world, non color managed world. We're to believe that sRGB is some standard behavior and to some degree, it is although the beavhior it defines reflects a CRT we haven't had around for years and years. To put it another way, if all sRGB similar displays were replaced with Adobe RGB like displays and all applications treated untagged data as Adobe RGB (1998), the differences in the previews would be much less. Your LCD isn't really an sRGB device. Your wide gamut display is really quite different. Untagged sRGB assumed as such or not on a sRGB like device looks pretty close (there can be differences of course). Untagged sRGB assumed to be Adobe RGB is just the wrong assumption and such, the preview is wrong.

Bottom line, 9 times out of 10, if an image doesn't match between Photoshop, Lightroom or other ICC aware applications and the one you're comparing to, chances are, the other application is not ICC aware or it is treating the RGB numbers incorrectly due to the lack of an embedded profile.

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Re: Tired of color desat when opening in Bridge/Lightroom. HELP!

I looked at the calibration of the monitor, but i know it’s not the monitor because the image looks fine in “windows picture viewer” application.

Anyway, tell us which OS you use and what monitor profile is configured for the OS

If I minimize bridge and then maximize, the image will look correctly saturated, but when I click my mouse, or move the window, it returns to being desaturated and has a color shift.

This sounds like smaller previews where create with the correct colorprofile, while larger are not - either before or after a change must happend. What happens when you delete Bridges cache? Same same, or did it help (they all look okay) or are the smaller previews desaturated as well then?

Jörg

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Re: Tired of color desat when opening in Bridge/Lightroom. HELP!

Adobe Community Professional , May 25, 2012
I looked at the calibration of the monitor, but i know it’s not the monitor because the image looks fine in “windows picture viewer” application

Windows Picture Viewer isn’t color managed. It is incorrect (even if you prefer the appearance). Camera Raw, Photoshop, Lightroom are color managed. The appearance is correct** even if you don’t like the way they look.

Assuming the documents have the correct embedded profile and the display profile is correctly defining display behavior.

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Re: Tired of color desat when opening in Bridge/Lightroom. HELP!

I had the same problem.

I used LUT Manager ( http://fotomania.nixz.net/lutmanager/ ) to load .ICC file. It solved my problem finally

But it does not work after reboot. I saves it as a .LUT file that associated with LUT Manager and I droped it in Statup folder to run it automatically at startup.

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