Wide Gamut Monitor and the path to Sanity

Most Valuable Participant ,
Apr 17, 2016

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Yes... this again.

I promise that when I figure this out I am going to make a killer video tutorial

about this and help everybody who is still struggling with this.

I have read dozens of articles about this and still it alludes me.

read this insane thing (you'd think that a super expert,

when talking about color management, would have mercy on our eyes...)

read this very good thing

and read posts here and everywhere. still don't get all of it.

really, what's the point of working in a color managed environment

if you can only see it "right" in some specific color managed apps

while the majority of people will see it "wrong"?

Me

I do Compositing design for video.

My Workstation:

Windows 7

DELL 2408WFP Monitor. calibrated using x-rite i1displaypro.

Software:

Photoshop CC2015

After Effects CC2015

Chrome Browser

Vlc player

My Workflow:

  • in Photoshop I work in sRGB as a working space color space: the colors look less saturated - Like I want them.
  • when I save for web and embed the color profile: the photo looks fine in Windows photo viewer - since it's color managed.
  • Browse the files in my Os Windows explorer: saturated - since it's not color managed.
  • Watch it in my Chrome browser: saturated - since it's not color managed.
  • Import it to After effects for Compositing the image: it looks saturated - unless I change the color management project settings to sRGB - then it looks fine. o.k I get it - color management.... I can do this!
  • Export a movie from After effects and watch it in the ever popular VLC player: saturated - since it's not color managed. ARRGGGG

Why Bother?

it is supposed to be on the web so people are going to watch it in Chrome since the vast majority of people watch browse in chrome

if I send it to a client he is going to see it in Chrome. the movie is going to be watched in VLC Player since it's the most popular.

so basically everybody who's anybody is going to watch that stuff as too saturated. so why bother to work in a color managed environments? for geeks who only use firefox value 1? or use designated color managed apps??? (I am a geek no offense)

and if he watches it in sRGB Monitor or an sRGBcolor space profile in his OS - it is going to be saturated.

the only way I can keep my sanity for now is to set my color management profile in windows to sRGB

now everything is consistent - too saturated. but at least it's consistent.

what do you guys think?

and another thing:

btw is there a way to use x-rite to calibrate my monitor for at least to be a decent sRGB color space?

can't see how to do that...

thanks in advance

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Apr 17, 2016 0
Adobe Community Professional ,
Apr 17, 2016

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It's really simple! You're either viewing the data (image, video etc) in a color managed app or you're not.

  1. IF you are, then they all appear the same on your system. From 1 app to the other.
  2. IF not, non color managed app's have zero idea about the display profile or the data you're viewing. Even if it's sRGB, such app's don't know what sRGB is. But sRGB, on an sRGB-like display looks less worse than using something else.

This has been discussed recently here (cut to the chase, here's one post that covers the issues):

Re: Best answer: It's real simple!: Retouching Forum: Digital Photography Review

I always assumed the photo was converted to sRGB at some point, and therefor the color values, while remaining the same numerically, are shown in a different frame of reference.

The values are the same (in the same color space). But not all software treats them that way. So here's the analogy. You ask me: How far do you live from my home? I answer: 124. Is that 124 miles, inches, feet, meters, kilometers etc? If I have a pixel value of red 124, it's equally meaningless! 124 what? IF I say Red 124 in sRGB (versus 124 in Adobe RGB (1998)), we have a scale and a meaning for that number.

In non color managed app's, the product has no idea what sRGB is. Or Adobe RGB (1998). It has no idea what a display profile is, it can't properly preview that value. It simply sends the number to the display.

In a color managed browser, or any color managed app, the product knows the scale of the number (124 in sRGB) AND it knows the behavior of your display via an ICC Profile. So the previews are correct, as well as you've calibrated and profiled that display.

So if you and everyone on the planet used a color managed browser, you could use any RGB working space! It would know the scale of the numbers and the conditions of your display using that profile. Just like Photoshop or Elements or Lightroom or Capture 1 to name a few ICC aware products. But lots of people don't use software, browsers, that behave this way. We could 'suggest' these products alwaus 'assume' sRGB. So if you use sRGB, it looks pretty good on that sRGB-like display. But that doesn't mean it will match what other's see because again, no color management.

Color management is supposed to allow differing people to see the same RGB values the same way. The idea is to mange the Color. color management is number management. It answers the question, 124 in miles (or kilometers) so all the numbers are defined.

Bottom line is, don't use a non color managed browser. Hope (suggest) other's do not either. That helps with sRGB and all other color spaces.

  1. IF 100% of your work is going to the web and mobile devices, best to use sRGB. Today! That can change, it's likely it will, then you can ask yourself if painting yourself into an sRGB corner is a good idea. Example later.
  2. IF 100% of your work is B&W, sRGB is fine but so are other RGB working spaces.
  3. The only reason for sRGB was to aim to the lowest common denominator (back in 1996). Using sRGB for the web will not ensure a match other's see of your work to what you see! That's super critical to understand. It's the best, least worst working space to post to the slew of people who don't have color managed browsers, who don't calibrate and profile their displays, work with displays where they've mucked around with the OSD controls etc.
  4. The only way to get what you see and other's to match is to use color management! And if so, ANY RGB working space will work, as it does in Photoshop!
  5. IF your goal is to output your images to a print, sRGB is suboptimal. It will not produce a bad print, it will not produce the best possible print! I've never seen an output device's gamut that doesn't exceed sRGB somewhere in color space. Sometimes hugely. I've been looking at such devices for over 20 years.
  6. The video on the benefits of wide gamut working space on a print shows this. It provides a way for anyone with the time and two pieces of paper to test for themselves. The other video on color gamut is based on science; colorimetry. The facts are, many images fit fully into sRGB gamut and many do not. IF you clip all your images to sRGB, you've given some of them a sex change operation! Can't go backwards. Of course, with Adobe RGB (1998) or wider gamut, no issue going to sRGB for one iteration for the web.

Now, in terms of sRGB for the web, today it makes sense. It might not in the future if/when the majority of users now have wide gamut displays that are not anything like sRGB! Here's an example of what sRGB looks like, without color management on a wide gamut display, it's ugly as Adobe RGB would be if handled the same way; without color management!

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Apr 17, 2016 2
Most Valuable Participant ,
Apr 18, 2016

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Thank you for the feedback. I appreciate it.

hope you will see this through with me. I need to get this covered.

read the posts.

I really get why you should use color profiles between computers that do the same, and know how to to interpret them. and also understand that sRGB Color space is the best choice today for Web designated work. that's all well and good.

Please answer me this:

(in order to make it simple I use the term "Vibrant" to describe how it looks for Wide Gamut monitors when you watch your work in a non managed software)

1. if most people don't use color managed software to view my work on their Wide Gamut monitors, or even have Wide Gamut monitors, are they are going to see the color as vibrant as I see them when watching my work in non managed apps?

2. if I change my Wide Gamut display color management profile in my OS to sRGB - the color is vibrant. does this mean everyone who has an sRGB color space profile or sRGB monitor will see these vibrant colors?

I can't tell clients what browsers or softwares to use - that doesn't make sense to me, especially when the vast majority uses Chrome/Vlc. most people will use these softwares and that it a fact. so I am guessing the majority of people will watch my work as a vibrant color.

my conclusions today to make of all of this and tell me if this is correct please -

isn't the safest course, if you only do video/web, to "handicap" your monitor to sRGB color space profile from the start and see those vibrant colors knowing that this is the result you will know that the client sees? (use an sRGB working space but watch it through an sRGB monitor). I mean leave the Wide Gamut thing to when you print photos so you can enjoy a broader color space for the printer to use. right?

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Apr 18, 2016 0
Adobe Community Professional ,
Apr 18, 2016

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To sum up what's been covered above:

Only color managed applications display correctly on a wide gamut monitor. You cannot use non color managed software - it will display sRGB material oversaturated. You need a proper conversion from source profile into display profile. Needless to say, that means you also need to have a valid display profile, which is one that accurately describes the monitor's response.

If you have to use non-managed software, ignore the oversaturation.

If anyone else uses a wide gamut monitor without color management, that's his/her problem. Nothing you can do about that.

You have to use Firefox for web, and you need to set it to color management mode 1. Many browsers handle color management correctly as long as the image has an embedded document profile - but if it doesn't, all attempts at color management stop, and the RGB numbers are just sent straight through to the display. The result is oversaturation.

What Firefox mode 1 does, is assign sRGB to all untagged material, including graphic page elements. This allows the normal color management chain to operate, and properly convert into your display profile. No other browsers do this on Windows.

---

I have used wide gamut monitors for years, and it's no problem at all as long as you understand what's going on, and only use color managed applications.

ff_gfx.png

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Apr 18, 2016 1
Most Valuable Participant ,
Apr 18, 2016

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Thanks for the feedback.

that is my problem since I need to give a result that satisfies and from what I see - I am the only one seeing the unsaturated result.

please bear with me

in My Photoshop at home on Windows in my Calibrated Dell at home the photo looks like this:

002.JPG

when I keep working in color managed apps it will stay like this.

if I go watch it in unmanaged app it will look like this

Windows, Dell, ICC-sRGB.JPG

if I change my color management profile on windows to sRGB it will look also like this

in both photoshop and on any other app.

Now I am in my Workplace where have iMac OS X El Capitan

to continue my work. the display icc is configured as an iMac profile in the display settings.

it looks like this

Windows, Dell, ICC-sRGB.JPG

so to conclude - the saturated version is the one I should keep working on and in order

to watch it as such I should configure my profile at home to sRGB. I can talk to people

all day that these are not the colors I had at home and debate about color management

but the end result is that people see it colorful even on Imac.

what do you make of this?

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Apr 18, 2016 0
Adobe Community Professional ,
Apr 18, 2016

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Two things:

1. You cannot use sRGB as display profile with that monitor, unless it's set to the sRGB preset. The long and short of this is that the display profile has to describe the display's actual response. Change anything in the monitor's settings, and the profile is invalid and needs to be replaced / rebuilt.

2. If two color managed applications don't agree (Win or Mac doesn't matter), that means color management is breaking down in one of them. Everything should always display identically in all color managed apps - that's the whole point.

(The only exception to this is gamut clipping in sRGB, visible on a wide gamut monitor but not a standard one)

If this is the case - two color managed apps don't agree - the prime suspect is always the display profile. It can be corrupt, defective, not written according to spec, or just the wrong one. So the first thing to try is always to run the calibration again. Make sure it's set to make v2 and matrix-based profiles, not v4 or table-based (LUT). Either of the latter two can cause problems in some applications.

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Apr 18, 2016 0
Adobe Community Professional ,
Apr 18, 2016

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Just took the time to read your first post again - yeah, I know...

Since sRGB is your target anyway, maybe you'd be better off just setting the monitor to sRGB - in the OSD - and calibrate/profile it as that. This will turn your wide gamut monitor into a perfectly ordinary standard gamut one.

The point above still stands: the profile has to describe the actual, current behavior. You can't just switch profile, it has to be the right one. And if you for any reason change any monitor setting, you must reprofile it.

The oversaturation you see without color management is not how others will see it, unless they too have a WG unit. That's why I said above to just ignore it.

All monitors are different and will display differently, unless corrected by proper color management. It's just that wide gamut monitors are more different. Small differences are usually tolerated, larger differences not.

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Apr 18, 2016 0
Most Valuable Participant ,
Apr 18, 2016

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Thank you

unfortunately my Monitor has a very bad sRGB preset so I resort to choose the icc profile

windows have for sRGB. it is very close to what I see on iMac display so that's o.k.

I got x-rite i1Display pro and can't really use it. tried to set a profile a few times

still get these color issues. can't find how to make a calibrated sRGB simulation in my Wide Gamut display

so the only thing that "solved" my problem was using sRGB color profile in Windows Color Management.

wish I had more monitors to test this solution. maybe it is just my 10 year old Dell...

you can found this "solution" also in the comments in this fine article

fds.jpg

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Apr 18, 2016 0
Adobe Community Professional ,
Apr 18, 2016

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An sRGB preset doesn't guarantee sRGB or everyone would pick that and no one would need hardware to calibrate and profile their display. Now not all displays are created equally nor their sRGB emulations! Had you been working on an NEC SpectraView and calibrated it, using it's colorimeter and software to sRGB, you'd get a very,very close simulation, on a wide gamut display of sRGB. But that does absolutely nothing to aid other's viewing your images. They might look good, they might not and you have no control over what they see. Especially IF they use a non color managed browser.

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Apr 18, 2016 0
Adobe Community Professional ,
Apr 18, 2016

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Yooofi wrote:

unfortunately my Monitor has a very bad sRGB preset so I resort to choose the icc profile

windows have for sRGB.

That is not the same thing! A profile doesn't actually do anything, it's just a description. If the description is wrong , as it will be with a wide gamut unit and sRGB as display profile, Photoshop displays incorrectly.

The only way to emulate sRGB in a wide gamut monitor is to do it in the monitor's internal circuitry. In your case the OSD.

i1Profiler works on the video card. It can't emulate sRGB. Some high-end calibration software like Eizo Colornavigator and NEC Spectraview communicate directly with the monitor and can do this as part of the calibration. But the profile is still just a description and needs to be correct.

If you see the same thing on your Mac as you do with sRGB as display profile in Windows, something's wrong on the Mac end.

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Apr 18, 2016 0
Most Valuable Participant ,
Apr 20, 2016

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Thanks guys.

(I edited my response)

D Fosse:

1. You cannot use sRGB as display profile with that monitor, unless it's set to the sRGB preset. The long and short of this is that the display profile has to describe the display's actual response. Change anything in the monitor's settings, and the profile is invalid and needs to be replaced / rebuilt.

I guess this "solution" is all I can do right now and the reason it works for me is that my monitor has a malfunction. otherwise can't explain why most of your appreciated explanations here are different from the result I am seeing. sRGB emulation of my monitor looks very bad.

the fact is that the result I am seeing in my monitor after calibration is viewed very different in other computers then mine (but quite the same in all of them). they all see it the same - as saturated, but in my computer it is unsaturated in photoshop and all color managed apps. I would have had no problem suffering this situation if in all the computers that watched my work would see it right. but the fact is everywhere it is saturated. so I have to view it as such.

the way for me to see it as saturated in photoshop is to change my computer profile to sRGB. I only tried this solution because in my workplace I see that color managment was set to sRGB so tried it at home.

D Fosse:

2. If this is the case - two color managed apps don't agree - the prime suspect is always the display profile. It can be corrupt, defective, not written according to spec, or just the wrong one. So the first thing to try is always to run the calibration again. Make sure it's set to make v2 and matrix-based profiles, not v4 or table-based (LUT). Either of the latter two can cause problems in some applications.

Tried Calibrating again and again. I have an x-rite i1Display pro - not the cheapest calibrator. still the issue remains - in Ps and other color managed apps - unsaturated, in unmanaged apps - saturated like the computers I see in other places.

I guess this display profile problem is what's wrong. maybe I have a bad monitor.

my conclusions so far:

can't say that all of this makes sense with the result I am seeing. I have been struggling with this issue for over a year. many forums. many people gave many explanations. still can't see that what's being explained works in my case. if there's anyone here who's willing to go the extra mile please contact me - I got specific questions and I need specific guidance and advice to follow this through.

in the meantime I will still ofcourse use sRGB working space in photoshop as my working color space. can't see the point now to use color

management in Ps or Ae since the result looks the same in other computers. maybe I need a new Monitor. I don't know.

thanks again I really do appreciate all the help you guys are great. this issue is still unresolved for me I am sorry to say.

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Apr 20, 2016 0
Advisor ,
Apr 21, 2016

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can't say that all of this makes sense with the result I am seeing. I have been struggling with this issue for over a year... can't see the point now to use color management in Ps or Ae since the result looks the same in other computers. maybe I need a new Monitor.

your color workflow should appear to you with clarity like links in a chain

once you understand how your software (and hardware) react to profiles/colorspaces

the broken link should appear logically

and quite matter-of-factly

with no guessing around

there is a old windows thread here that a gal had very similar problems using her wide gamut monitor that never got solved -- it went on for seven pages like this...

my advice to you is set up your workflow using a known reference image with more normal skin tones (like the Photodisc PDI jpg) and buy a quality sRGB-compliant monitor (or at least borrow one to test your setup and work flow)

BTW, i recall Ae is not color managed, thinking it is may be part of the problem

i would also suggest taking a few minutes to learn how to use Photoshop color management because it is extremely useful for proofing your document's so-called 'true color' (if you can get your monitor profile "link" ruled out)

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Apr 21, 2016 0
Most Valuable Participant ,
Apr 21, 2016

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thanks Gator.

would like to see the 7 pages thread if you can find it

I understand the whole theory and practice.

you have a WG monitor so don't be alarmed by the over saturation you see un non color managed apps.

problem is - in all the Monitors I see - the result is saturated (can't say - over saturated. it looks fine)

Ae is color managed though. but that's not even the problem since even still images don't stay the same across my monitor and others.

will learn as I go from my own experience I guess.

new monitor sounds like a reasonable course of action.

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Apr 21, 2016 0
Advisor ,
Apr 21, 2016

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I understand the whole theory and practice

then exactly where is the problem occurring - you should be able to easily narrow it down to one  broken 'link' in your workflow

problem is - in all the Monitors I see - the result is saturated (can't say - over saturated. it looks fine)

you say the problem is apparent in all the monitors you see, the result is saturated, but you can't say over saturated because it looks fine - not sure i'm following you there

however, if you save-out tagged sRGB in Photoshop, import it into After Effects (and use the embedded profile) - and then export your project with no profile conversions - you should have sRGB in the exported document (test with and without embedded profiles in your exported document)

that exported document should display okay on properly-profiled sRGB-compliant monitors

on aRGB (Adobe RGB-compliant) monitors - it's expected the exported sRGB document will display with a strong over saturation in reds (unless it is fully color-managed like Photoshop) - if you are not seeing that behavior, logic says you are either missing something, have a corrupted or buggy system or hardware issues

also, be aware, Windows and some 'color-managed' apps under Windows may only be converting Source> sRGB (not Source> MonitorRGB as Photoshop does)

thanks for the update on AfterEffects color management support -- Ps, Id, Acrobat Pro, Illustrator also support color management and i can offhand think of a dozen ways screw them up BEFORE i even send them down stream...

i have a great lightly used 24" NEC sRGB monitor in San Diego if you want a deal, i don't use it anymore, it was $1,300 new, i recall no HDMI support w/o a DVI-HDMI conversion cable

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Apr 21, 2016 0
Most Valuable Participant ,
Apr 21, 2016

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you wrote:

then exactly where is the problem occurring - you should be able to easily narrow it down to one  broken 'link' in your workflow

my only guess is now that my monitor is bad. if I had like 5 different good monitors here

I could maybe get this narrowed down.

here is my chain:

  • I work in PS with an sRGB profile - see it less saturated
  • work in Ae - see it less saturated since it's color managed
  • export to a movie file - see it saturated since it's Vlc and not color managed

but when viewed in other monitors it's saturated. so the only way for me to see it the same is do this color management windows profile as sRGB now my monitor and others look the same.

so it could be that my Dell is 10 years old and it's time to throw it away and

like D Fosse wrote:

If this is the case - two color managed apps don't agree - the prime suspect is always the display profile. It can be corrupt, defective, not written according to spec, or just the wrong one. So the first thing to try is always to run the calibration again. Make sure it's set to make v2 and matrix-based profiles, not v4 or table-based (LUT). Either of the latter two can cause problems in some applications.

tried calibrating it again. didn't work. same result.

tried to set my monitor to sRGB preset in the monitor itself - calibrated or no, bad result

the only thing that "solved" it was using in the OS color management sRGB now I see what others are seeing. even if it's a bad thing - it's what keep working.

or buy a new monitor and check again. maybe this time buy as sRGB monitor....

you wrote:

you say the problem is apparent in all the monitors you see, the result is saturated, but you can't say over saturated because it looks fine - not sure i'm following you there

what I mean is that in photoshop apparently my monitor shows me less saturated photos. when viewed in other monitors it is more saturated, even those who are supposed to be very good (IMac, other Dell monitors) i.e it's not like its over saturated - it's more that my screen is less. the problem is only in my screen from what I see I am the only one who sees the image like this:

002.JPG

when everybody else sees it like this:

Windows, Dell, ICC-sRGB.JPG

just a suggestion

I am prepared to continue this conversation in skype or other medium if you are up for it. maybe these miscommunication are getting in the way of solving this issue for me. thank you for trying to help.

appreciate the offer for a monitor. I live in Israel and think that In this type of hardware, I would prefere to buy a brand new.

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Apr 21, 2016 0
Advisor ,
Apr 21, 2016

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ok, Photoshop "matches" AfterEffects (good) they are fully color managed

  • export to a movie file - see it saturated since it's Vlc and not color managed

good useful observation (but you mean the heavy red saturation, right)

when viewed in other monitors it's saturated.

you mean sRGB it looks a little bit more saturated and a little bit heavier in blacks,

or the reds blazing like you see here in this simulation of sRGB in an unmanaged AdobeRGB-compliant monitor

(the bottom series is how unmanaged sRGB saturates reds on an AdobeRGB type monitor compared to the top series in a fully color managed application like Photoshop)

click on the PDI image to pop it open, then drag it to your desktop or right click on it and save/download (this saves downloads a copy of my original tagged example), then open it in Photoshop (use the sRGB profile) and compare the skintones

SimulatedaRGBsat.jpg

the problem is only in my screen from what I see I am the only one who sees the image like this:

if you are talking about Photoshop or any fully-managed app looking unique to your monitor, that's sure sign your monitor profile isn't right like D Fosse pointed you to earlier...

man, dump that old monitor or use it for tools and apply the free advice you saved here to a new QUALITY reference monitor, personally I wouldn't go wide gamut without a sound sRGB preset, but if you are peddling crappy color that's going to catch up to you sooner or later

don't think I'm bad mouthing wide gamut monitors, they are great for fully-color-managed viewing environments, they just turn unmanaged sRGB red...

PS:  one cheap easy trick that may help nail a bad monitor profile in Photoshop is to open high resolution Photodisc PDI .jpg (to fill the monitor up with pixels)

then EDIT> ADJUSTMENTS> DESATURATE

zoom in 100% Actual Pixels or 50% - if it looks absolutely neutral gray, good clean black to white steps -- your monitor may be ok -- if it has any color cast in any area you monitor profile is bad.

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Apr 21, 2016 0
Most Valuable Participant ,
Apr 24, 2016

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thank you Gator. it seems that everything suggests that I have a bad monitor. it's been good for so long so time to say goodbye. Now I got my eye on NEC PA241W.. yeah I know its Wide Gamut too! but I want to get this covered. I want to test all that's been said here on this monitor to get this figured out finally and click "solved" on this thread. then make a tutorial.

I do mainly work for Web and Video. after effects, Photoshop, illustrator.

got great reviews on this monitor.

Ron Martinsen's Photography Blog: REVIEW: NEC PA-241W & PA-271W LCD Monitors

do you think this type of monitor is over-kill for my needs?

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Apr 24, 2016 0
Adobe Community Professional ,
Apr 30, 2016

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ANY of the NEC PA series are worth every penny. And you can emulate sRGB with a touch of one button in SpectraView.

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Apr 30, 2016 0
Most Valuable Participant ,
May 01, 2016

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thank you DG. do you think it's a good suggestion to buy a WG monitor if I only deal with Video Compositing or Motion Graphics for Video/Web? I mean the price is double for WG monitor - between the NEC 27" EA274WMi-BK and the NEC PA 272 W.

is there any advantage besides the use of accurate colors for print which I won't use?

If I only be using the sRGB preset - might as well buy an sRGB monitor, dont you think?

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May 01, 2016 0
Adobe Community Professional ,
May 01, 2016

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DCI P3  is an RGB color space that was introduced in 2007 by the SMPTE is a larger gamut than sRGB (a tad larger than Adobe RGB in some places) so yes, depending on your goals, you'd want a wide gamut display for video.

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May 01, 2016 0
Community Beginner ,
May 05, 2017

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I know this topic hasn't been updated for quite some time now, but I would like to continue asking more questions and share my experiences. Since I've learned that editing in WG only benefits printing or people with WG monitor and viewed with color-managed apps... I resort my monitor preset, calibration and editing (PS and Lightroom) within the sRGB space.

However, I have noticed even in the sRGB space, the image viewed from Windows 10 "Photos" are off against the Windows Photo Viewer. From my research, Windows Photo Viewer is color-managed but "Photos" is not, this confuses me. Since Windows Photo Viewer's full-screen-slideshow-mode switches to "Photos" app automatically.... if I need to give works to my client, they will see two different colors and don't know which is correct.

Below is a screenshot of an example image. Windows Photo Viewer's color matches that of my Lightroom, but "Photos" app is much more saturated. My monitor is Dell Ultrasharp u2410, sRGB mode.

This confuses me as to what should I edit to as my baseline... as I don't want my clients to think I oversaturate everything lol.

comparison.jpg

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May 05, 2017 0
Community Beginner ,
May 05, 2017

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Now an even weirder situation just happened as I reconfigure my color calibration (using Colormunki Display) and reset my device profile default to the newly calibrated profile (Dell_U2410_D65_20170505_sRGB). For some unknown reason Windows Photo Viewer shows extremely dark and saturated. "Photos" is slightly saturated, and LR seems normal... if I know what normal is now. Did I do anything wrong?

comparison2.jpg

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May 05, 2017 0
Most Valuable Participant ,
May 05, 2017

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I can tell you the only way I managed to get this out of my way is to set my color management on windows to srgb. not through the monitor. I admit this topic is over my head and that's why, in spite of all the helpful and appreciated advice here, I can't say I have a correct answer. I can only say that my colors in my display using this color space are represented in a way that is similar to what I see in my clients or other monitors. before it was not. I still did not buy a new monitor but have decided that if I will - it would not be wide gamut, but srgb.

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May 05, 2017 0
Adobe Community Professional ,
May 05, 2017

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As I said a year ago; it’s simple. IF you use a color managed application, any color space that’s tagged will work and match other ICC aware applications. If the application isn’t color managed, all bets are off. EVEN WITH sRGB! Using sRGB alone, without color management does NOT guarantee a match!

sRGB urban legend & myths Part 2

In this 17 minute video, I'll discuss some more sRGB misinformation and cover:

When to use sRGB and what to expect on the web and mobile devices

How sRGB doesn't insure a visual match without color management, how to check

The downsides of an all sRGB workflow

sRGB's color gamut vs. "professional" output devices

The future of sRGB and wide gamut display technology

Photo print labs that demand sRGB for output

High resolution: http://digitaldog.net/files/sRGBMythsPart2.mp4

Low resolution on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WyvVUL1gWVs

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May 05, 2017 0
Community Beginner ,
May 06, 2017

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Thanks Roei and thedigitaldog for the quick response.

The concept is straight-forward indeed, but in actual practice it isn't so clear within Windows as it doesn't clearly tells you which apps are color-managed or not color-managed (or managed to what profile exactly). I definitely feels Roei's pain as we cannot control clients setup and apps used when viewing our photos digitally. Since there is no guarantee on the colors others see in their computer, my goal is to get it as accurate as possible (not extremely saturated). Which brings to my observations below.

After playing with the profiles and Windows Photo Viewer (denoted as WPV), Windows "Photos" (denoted as WP) a bit more, I have observed the following with the colors:

Standard color profile:         LR == WPV (both less saturated), WP slightly saturated

My calibrated color profile:  LR == WP (both slightly saturated), WPV extremely saturated

The above observation doesn't make much sense, but it can definitely be my lack of knowledge. If there is a way to know what app uses what color profile, and if someone can help explain the above observation, I am all ear.

Lastly, I'm gonna enjoy the 2-part video thedigitaldog recorded.

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May 06, 2017 0
Adobe Community Professional ,
May 06, 2017

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Yes, it all boils down to a simple essence:

A wide gamut monitor can only be used with color managed software, an you must have a valid monitor profile for that color managed software to use. That wraps the whole thing up, it really is as simple as that.

It's not that it "only benefits" color managed apps. It's that you get into serious trouble with apps that are not. If everything is set up correctly, you can pick out non-color managed apps instantly: they display way off the charts and very obviously wrong.

BTW, sukail, don't ever! change anything in the "Advanced" tab in Windows color management. Don't touch it, set it back to defaults. There's nothing there that ever needs to be changed. The profile is changed in the "Devices" tab, if you need to do that. If you have a calibrator (which you must have with a wide gamut monitor) you don't, the software will set everything up.

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May 06, 2017 0
Most Valuable Participant ,
May 06, 2017

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Reasons to buy a wide gamut monitor

* You can see richer colours in your design apps

* You can prepare for very high end colour workflows with great accuracy

Reasons not to buy a wide gamut monitor

* The colour will be off in almost all apps

* It's harder to get accurate colour for the 99% of people without a fancy monitor

* You can't do anything without a good understanding of colour management

* It's cool

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May 06, 2017 1
Most Valuable Participant ,
May 06, 2017

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Or, even briefer: a wide gamut monitor isn't a better monitor it's a highly specialist monitor for professionals with very specific needs who can put up with all the downsides.

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May 06, 2017 1
Most Valuable Participant ,
May 06, 2017

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BTW, sukail, don't ever! change anything in the "Advanced" tab in Windows color management. Don't touch it, set it back to defaults. There's nothing there that ever needs to be changed. The profile is changed in the "Devices" tab, if you need to do that. If you have a calibrator (which you must have with a wide gamut monitor) you don't, the software will set everything up.

I am sorry to say that I have not seen this advice to be helpful in practice. in my workplace, the Dell 27" WG monitors were set by default in the advanced tab to have to profile of the monitor itself. I don't think there was an option to add it in the devices tab, unless it was added in the advanced. the reason we had to change it is that we got yellow tinted grays in photoshop. so we used advanced->change system defaults->add an sRGB profile and set it to be the default other than the monitor itself. this was the only remedy for this I have found. now the grays are grays. and the result is viewed as expected in our client's monitors and televisions. we broadcast news for million TV sets and also share our work for many clients over the web and digital media. we are fine.

at my home I have the same 24" Dell which I have done the same after messing with i1display pro calibrator which still did not give me consistent profile that will produce same results across managed vs un-managed apps. guess I preferred to leave this topic behind just to keep working and not be bothered by the color shifts. what I believe I am doing is limit my monitor to sRGB color space and essentially not color manage anything.

Thank you digitaldog (will check those videos. I have seen plenty by now and none are easy to understand or adhere in my common practice) and D Fosse for both of you continuing to try to demystify this heavy topic (for me and some other users)

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May 06, 2017 0
Most Valuable Participant ,
May 06, 2017

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I agree TestScreenName

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May 06, 2017 0
Adobe Community Professional ,
May 06, 2017

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https://forums.adobe.com/people/Roei+Tzoref  wrote

I am sorry to say that I have not seen this advice to be helpful in practice. in my workplace, the Dell 27" WG monitors were set by default in the advanced tab to have to profile of the monitor itself. I don't think there was an option to add it in the devices tab

That's just wrong and you should set it back. This is how the Advanced tab should look, even if you are using a wide gamut display (as I am).

advanced1.png

The profile is set under the Devices tab (if your calibration software hasn't already done it):

devices2.png

Generally, you're all overcomplicating this. There's no problem using a wide gamut monitor, as long as it's properly color managed. You cannot use applications without color management. Throw them out. There are color managed alternatives for almost anything these days. If you have to use them, ignore what you see.

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May 06, 2017 0
Most Valuable Participant ,
May 06, 2017

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That's just wrong and you should set it back. This is how the Advanced tab should look, even if you are using a wide gamut display (as I am).

I think we are talking about the same thing. sorry for the confusing. I change my profile in the devices tab but the only way I have access to adding and replace the default profile is when I click advanced and add a profile through what appears to be the same devices tab. in my workplace we have Windows 10 and I remember I could not add a profile in the root devices tab but will take another look. in my home I have windows 7 it appears that I can. probably an administrator restriction of some kind at my workplace.

this is my windows 7 main Color management window. here I can add (in my workplace I could not)

in my workplace after going to advanced and choose change system defaults

I got this window where I could add an sRGB profile and set it to default.

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May 06, 2017 0
Adobe Community Professional ,
May 06, 2017

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OK, but again, there's something there that shouldn't be there: the WCS "virtual device" profile. I suppose it does no harm, but don't set it as default. It's not an icc-specification profile at all and applications don't know what to do with it.

Yes, Microsoft made this whole dialog rather confusing. The thing is that they developed their own full color management framework, Windows Color System - something parallel to Mac OS ColorSync - but it's sort of dead in the water and nobody knows what became of it. The applications don't need it, they just use standard icc profiles happily.

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May 06, 2017 0
Most Valuable Participant ,
May 06, 2017

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OK, but again, there's something there that shouldn't be there: the WCS "virtual device" profile. I suppose it does no harm, but don't set it as default. It's not an icc-specification profile at all and applications don't know what to do with it.

ok so this now:

looks the same when restarting photoshop, but better be on the safe side and listen to users who actually know about this stuff thank you D Fosse.

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May 06, 2017 0
Adobe Community Professional ,
May 06, 2017

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Click the Dell profile and "set as default profile", and you're good to go - in color managed applications that will actually use the profile. The others you can ignore.

It's currently set to sRGB, which is wrong unless the monitor itself has been set to emulate sRGB. The profile needs to be an accurate description of the monitor's actual response.

Whenever you need to change a profile here it's important that the application is closed and relaunched. All color managed apps need to load the profile at startup, and they will continue to use that profile until next relaunch. But a Windows reboot is not necessary.

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May 06, 2017 0
Most Valuable Participant ,
May 06, 2017

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Click the Dell profile and "set as default profile", and you're good to go - in color managed applications that will actually use the profile. The others you can ignore.

that's what cause the mess to begin with. if I set my monitor here or at work to the dell as default, I am seeing yellow tint in color managed apps (photoshop) at work or I am seeing faded saturation images at home. I know about restarting photoshop when I change a profile (trust me I have struggled with this for a while). I know this contradicts what you are suggesting, but the only way to get my screens to give me the results I need are to set it as sRGB in the software (color management on windows), not the hardware (the monitor). this may be different from the whole color management workflow, but it works for me for the past few years and I see consistent results in my costumers screen whether they are Mac displays or tv screens. maybe it's just my old Dell monitors....

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May 06, 2017 0
Adobe Community Professional ,
May 06, 2017

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OK, then either the calibrator makes corrupt profiles / the sensor is broken - or you're not setting the proper white point target. It doesn't have to be 6500K.

Notice the long list of profiles in my screenshot above? These reflect different calibration targets, and the biggest difference between them is the white point setting. I use this to match different paper stock.

There's a very simple base line for this too: Monitor white should be a visual match to paper white. You should "see" paper white on screen.

Now, this is obviously dependent on the whole environment, ambient light, print viewing light, even the application interface. So there's no way to operate with any fixed values or numbers here. The question is: Are you able to match monitor white to paper white? Do this first. Use the OSD controls. Then run the calibration, and set the calibrator to "native" white point so it doesn't try to change it again.

If it still looks wrong, something's up with the software and/or sensor.

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May 06, 2017 0
Adobe Community Professional ,
May 06, 2017

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You're not using canned Dell profiles anywhere, are you? In that case, throw them out. You have to use a calibrator. Dell profiles are notoriously bad.

https://forums.adobe.com/people/Roei+Tzoref  wrote

messing with i1display pro calibrator which still did not give me consistent profile that will produce same results across managed vs un-managed apps.

Just picking up on the obvious misunderstandings above, so that we can get them permanently out of the way. This one for instance. Non-color managed applications will never display correctly, end of story. It will never be consistent, and it's not supposed to.

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May 06, 2017 0
Most Valuable Participant ,
May 06, 2017

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Just picking up on the obvious misunderstandings above, so that we can get them permanently out of the way. This one for instance. Non-color managed applications will never display correctly, end of story. It will never be consistent, and it's not supposed to.

on sRGB (monitor or profile for the WG monitor), non color management-apps and color management apps will look somewhat the same, wont they? because in my system they rather do. I am aware I am putting blindfolds on the whole color management process but this was the only way to get the results to not drive me insane (as the header suggests). this could be the fault of my faulty monitors as they are more than a decade old.

thank you for your patience all of you. I know this stuff may seem "simple" to all of you since you are using that word a lot. at this stuff I am completely ignorant and the more I go deeper down that rabbit hole, the more I get confused. I need a break.

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May 06, 2017 0
Adobe Community Professional ,
May 06, 2017

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I think a lot of the perceived complexity is that people think they have to do something to make it work. And so they do, and end up making a complete mess of it. And then it really does get complicated. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy.

This stuff "just works", if people would just leave it alone. Run the calibration, done. It will basically work at default settings. Photoshop will handle it correctly at default settings. Windows color management will handle it correctly at default settings.

As you get more advanced, you may want to tune the calibration targets for white point and black point, in order to get a good visual match from screen to print. But that's irrespective of monitor gamut.

For some reason people tend to trust a basic/consumer photo viewer in the operating system more than a professional-grade image editor. And even more incredible - when the two don't match, they say Photoshop must be wrong. What the basic psychology behind that is, is anyone's guess.

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May 06, 2017 0
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May 06, 2017

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That's another useful approach (throw out all your non-colour managed apps) but does a web designer have a choice?

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May 06, 2017 0
Most Valuable Participant ,
May 06, 2017

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The it is simple: you have a double fake. Two mistakes or faults cancelling each other out. That's fine for the situation you started with, but you must expect the consequences of the errors to make everything else wildly unpredictable. The correct profile for a correctly set up monitor; accurate colour and tagging in the image; use only colour managed apps; export with correct settings. Your fault might lie in the monitor profile in fact, I've heard of bad ones giving an incorrect cast in Photoshop.

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May 06, 2017 0