Wide Gamut Monitor and the path to Sanity

[Roei Tzoref]

Yes... this again.

I promise that when I figure this out I am going to make a killer video tutorial

about this and help everybody who is still struggling with this.

I have read dozens of articles about this and still it alludes me.

read this insane thing (you'd think that a super expert,

when talking about color management, would have mercy on our eyes...)

read this very good thing

and read posts here and everywhere. still don't get all of it.

really, what's the point of working in a color managed environment

if you can only see it "right" in some specific color managed apps

while the majority of people will see it "wrong"?

Me

I do Compositing design for video.

My Workstation:

Windows 7

DELL 2408WFP Monitor. calibrated using x-rite i1displaypro.

Software:

Photoshop CC2015

After Effects CC2015

Chrome Browser

Vlc player

My Workflow:

• in Photoshop I work in sRGB as a working space color space: the colors look less saturated - Like I want them.
• when I save for web and embed the color profile: the photo looks fine in Windows photo viewer - since it's color managed.
• Browse the files in my Os Windows explorer: saturated - since it's not color managed.
• Watch it in my Chrome browser: saturated - since it's not color managed.
• Import it to After effects for Compositing the image: it looks saturated - unless I change the color management project settings to sRGB - then it looks fine. o.k I get it - color management.... I can do this!
• Export a movie from After effects and watch it in the ever popular VLC player: saturated - since it's not color managed. ARRGGGG

Why Bother?

it is supposed to be on the web so people are going to watch it in Chrome since the vast majority of people watch browse in chrome

if I send it to a client he is going to see it in Chrome. the movie is going to be watched in VLC Player since it's the most popular.

so basically everybody who's anybody is going to watch that stuff as too saturated. so why bother to work in a color managed environments? for geeks who only use firefox value 1? or use designated color managed apps??? (I am a geek no offense)

and if he watches it in sRGB Monitor or an sRGBcolor space profile in his OS - it is going to be saturated.

the only way I can keep my sanity for now is to set my color management profile in windows to sRGB

now everything is consistent - too saturated. but at least it's consistent.

what do you guys think?

and another thing:

btw is there a way to use x-rite to calibrate my monitor for at least to be a decent sRGB color space?

can't see how to do that...

thanks in advance

[Roei Tzoref]

just an update the thread: I eventually bought Eizo CG247X Monitor, calibrated it to sRGB, bought another Dell U2415 adjusted it to match my Eizo. I sometimes work app managed and sometimes not. everything makes sense now. I have regained sanity.

[kain19406534]

Hi there Roei,

sounds good that you have regained sanity ^^.

Could you maybe elaborate a bit more on what exactly led to this?

I am just asking for a bit more information, but only if you have time for this

Cheeers!

[Roei Tzoref]

Hey Kain, what led to this is that I had a credibility issue with my old Dell. it was showing different colors and I was not sure if it's a hardware problem or a software. turns out it was mostly a hardware problem since it was going yellow on me. but also software - because I could not calibrate it properly. the Eizo comes with a built in color calibrator and a very high reputation for color correction. I needed that kind of credibility for my clients. I then bought another Dell and I use them both. set my dell to display as best it can to my Eizo and I can now trust my monitor again to show me the right colors.

[kain19406534]

Hi Roei,

thanks for elaborating in more detail

If you have time (I know it is a long post), could you maybe look at my last comment here:

Re: Help me out please! Colors seem to show wrong after monitor calibration?

and maybe tell me if I made the right assumptions or I got a wrong understanding of it all?

Would help me a lot ^^ Only if you got time for this

All the best!

[D Fosse]

Roei - yes, you can do that, if you need to use applications without color management.

Otherwise, purchasing a wide gamut unit and then permanently dumb it down to sRGB is a massive waste of money.

Now - one of the great advantages of Eizo ColorNavigator is that you can have several calibration targets/monitor profiles, and easily switch between them on the fly. One of these can be an sRGB emulation to be used when necessary.

The only thing you need to remember, is that every time you do this, you need to close down and relaunch any color managed application in use. The reason is that the application loads the monitor profile at startup, and then continues to use this profile for the duration of that session, even if it changes on system level. Relaunching loads the new profile.

[Roei Tzoref]

Yes, you can do that, if you need to use applications without color management.

I do use color management sometimes, not wide gamut but sRGB. I need to do color corrections sometimes for Video and Broadcast. the wide gamut features are not important to me since I don't do print work. if I do need to, I do know I can set my Eizo to a wide gamut range.

Otherwise, purchasing a wide gamut unit and then permanently dumb it down to sRGB is a massive waste of money.

I don't agree with that statement. the Eizo is wide gamut but the thing that is most critical to me is how accurate it is for Color Correction and Grading work that is done in Rec709 or sRGB color space and I bet that's why most people who do video purchase it or the Nec's. they don't really can afford the Flanders or Sony, so they settle for these guys who can be just fine on most situations for color critical work on video.

thing you need to remember, is that every time you do this, you need to close down and relaunch any color managed application in use.

yes, I was aware after testing in the last round. thanks D!

[D Fosse]

https://forums.adobe.com/people/Roei Tzoref  wrote

I don't agree with that statement.

OK, you obviously know what you're doing, so that's fine.

I didn't want to get into this to avoid complicating things further - but mainly because I still think it's better to advise people on how to use wide gamut monitors properly, instead of just turning it into a standard gamut one.

But yes, the sRGB / Rec 709 emulations in ColorNavigator are extremely accurate, because at no point do they touch the native gamut limit of the monitor. And yes, you still take advantage of Eizo's extremely high general quality, which has to do with a lot more than gamut.

Among all my other calibration targets, I also have an sRGB emulation - and yes, I do use it from time to time.

But users who haven't yet learned how to handle wide gamut units shouldn't rely on it. Then they never get anywhere.

[Roei Tzoref]

Thank you so much D for all the help here. I do generally know what I am doing as long as I am not in Wide Gamut land... it's a black hole for me and I guess if I had to do that kind of work, I would have learned it by practice.

[tammyf22995666]

Roei Tzoref​ , were you able to get this resolved? I work on an Alienware m17 laptop that I BELIEVE has a 195% srgb color gamut. when i produce videos in premier pro, and then transfer them to other computers to be previewed, they are very undersatured compared to mine. is this because i have a wide color gamut display and they do not? i am so confused here and dont know how to solve this problem.

[Roei Tzoref]

Roei Tzoref , were you able to get this resolved? I work on an Alienware m17 laptop that I BELIEVE has a 195% srgb color gamut.

Hi, yes. I set my wide gamut monitor to sRGB, and was able to get consistent results. since then I replaced my monitor and got another wide gamut monitor - Eizo, and set it's profile to sRGB since I only do video and not print work. everything is o.k.

your laptop by looking and its specs is not wide gamut but sRGB. so this is not your issue and maybe what you are experiencing is the fact that it's not calibrated properly.

[NB, colourmanagement net]

Hi Tammy

you may like to try the Premier forum with this question in case another user has seen this issue

Premiere Pro

despite the previous posters comment, unless the inline reviews are wrong -it seems your laptop may actually be wide gamut [Alienware m17 (2019) - Full Review and Benchmarks ]

I'd have to say, though, that "195% of sRGB" is a hell of a gamut!

If it really is 195% of sRGB then unless there's some way of reducing the gamut to sRGB, I'd suggest it may be unusable for video or image editing.

perhaps you can solve this by plugging in a more "normal" external monitor and use that to assess colour?

from what you write it certainly seems that it may be exaggerating the colour in your files,

which means that you think they look fine, but on a correctly set up system they look desaturated. .

does video produced by others look crazy saturated on your system? I'd expect it might.

I hope this helps

if so, please do mark my reply as "helpful"

thanks

neil barstow, colourmanagement

[TheDigitalDog]

https://forums.adobe.com/people/NB%2C+colourmanagement  wrote

I'd have to say, though, that "195% of sRGB" is a hell of a gamut!

Read such spec's with a grain of salt, there are several ways to produce these percentages values. The de facto standard when throwing around display gamut sizes is currently to quote the gamut area, calculated in CIE xy, relative to a reference gamut and expressed as a percentage. If the reference color gamut is unspecified, it is generally assumed to be NTSC (1953) - (which is pretty useless since it's not in use and makes things more confusing, especially for those doing video work).

Another confusing point about this figure is that it does not say what portion of the 2 gamuts overlap, so it would be possible to have a very large % gamut area, but only have a smaller portion of it actually covering the reference gamut.

At NEC they state 2 sets of figures: "Percent Area" and "Percent Coverage". More useful IMHO:

The "Percent Area" is simply the area in CIE xy of the display gamut vs the reference gamut, with no consideration of how much of the gamuts actually overlap. This value can be > 100%.

The "Percent Coverage" is the overlapping area of the 2 gamuts expressed as a percent of the total area of the reference gamut. The maximum possible value for this is 100%.

NEC generally quote both these values for AdobeRGB and sRGB, so it is easier to determine which color gamut best suits a particular application.

Using CIE xy is not ideal because it overemphasizes the greens and under emphasizes the blues. A much better way would be to use CIE u' v', but that would probably cause more confusion and make direct comparisons even more difficult.

[tammyf22995666]

thats a good idea. i will try editing from my wifes computer and then upload to mine. i imagine it will in fact be oversaturated. although, then wouldnt other video i watch on youtube and online look super oversaturated? (which they look more colorful than other device I view them on but nothing absolutely unwatchable.)

[gator soup]

>> i will try editing from my wifes computer and then upload to mine

edit in photoshop (in the sRGB colorspace or save as for the web in sRGB as a last step)

photoshop is displaying FULLY color managed - it is the unmanaged apps (and/or missing ICC profiles) that are causing the issues- so-called wide gamut monitors only show the error more pronounced

[tammyf22995666]

except for im talking about video production lol. soooo photoshop doesnt exactly help me. and it is my understanding that premier pro is NOT a color managed app

[gator soup]

ok my bad

[tammyf22995666]

no worries man! appreciate the input though!