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Moderation in this forum

Advocate ,
Aug 06, 2009 Aug 06, 2009

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OK, here goes.


For a long time there has been little or no evidence of any hosts, moderators or Adobe employees in here. John C and kanguyen make very welcome appearances from time to time, and both show an immaculate attitude, but little happens to improve things - although thanks to those who made a proper sticky about the use of this forum.


We have been relieved of a host who was allegedly a Community Expert in 'Creative Suite', but had apparently fulfilled none of the criteria for a Community Expert - such as being an expert in something. Nor did this person have more than a very wobbly grasp of how the forums actually work. With zero credibility, said person annoyed people by moralising and lecturing at them.


So now we have a pretty bolshy group of people who are sitting about, kicking their heels, hoping against hope that someone will sort out this buggy, defective software. Many have made very detailed, constructive suggestions and requests, others have gone to the trouble of making work-arounds. In the meantime they are chatting amongst themselves, which is normal behaviour for bored people in a waiting room who are still hoping for something to happen.


There are people who have used the WebX forums for years and years and appreciated them, even with their faults. These people are still grumpy about being shifted onto something they see as much worse. So there are bad moods around.


In my personal opinion, there have been quite a lot of posts, probably some of them mine, that are unnecessarily off-topic, sarcastic and hostile. A bit of a tug on the reins would be no bad thing in my view.


However, moderating a group such as the one gathered here is not easy. To be successful, it is necessary to show good humour, a sense of humour, a willingness to explain actions, and a degree of courtesy and respect, even to those who are not behaving particularly well at the time. Oz was a shining example, and brought a considerable degree of order to the Lounge (an even wilder corner of the West ) without antagonising anyone - well, maybe just the one serial reprobate who is unreachable anyway.


The proverbial 'firm but fair' - and a very nice bloke.


To suddenly begin mass deletions, without showing any of these qualities, may well be counter-productive.


For me, Jochem has a head start, since I believe he is the possessor of a minor-planet-sized brain and the skills to sort this mess out in minutes if he were given the chance. Good start. Now we need a better balance between discouragement of excessive pointless and snarky posts, information about what progress is being made / might be made / won't be made on forum fixes and improvements, individual help like JC has always provided for people who have weird stuff going on with their account, and a degree of visible humanity - please - to gain the consent of those being moderated.

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correct answers 1 Correct answer

Deleted User
Aug 08, 2009 Aug 08, 2009

I still can't get past the idea that "discussion" was invited and yet at the same time not needed.

Jochem,

I don't understand how you can be so hard-headed and stubborn!  I do understand that when we, any of us, do something, we generally feel we are correct in our actions.  BUT that does NOT mean we cannot learn from others and see that perhaps what we *thought* was correct, is just possibly slightly off-center from being correct.  One must be willing to see that there *are* other ways to look at

...

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Guide ,
Aug 07, 2009 Aug 07, 2009

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Buko. wrote:


Hard to do when the hosts have proven otherwise.

Two things to remember, Buko.

• some folks forget that they cease to be "one of us" when they become hosts; and

• they've never read the Gandhi quote.  It is time, therefore, to repeat it:

This is a genuine, well-known quote by Mahatma Ghandi, the Indian spiritual leader and activist:

• A customer is the most important visitor on our premises, he is not dependent on us. We are dependent on him.


• He is not an interruption in our work. He is the purpose of it.


• He is not an outsider in our business. He is part of it.


• We are not doing him a favor by serving him.     He is doing us a favor by giving us an opportunity to do so.

http://tbn3.google.com/images?q=tbn:QU-_-MGLrrqQhM:http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e5/Gandhi_costume.jpg

Employees of any entity, whether in government or in private business, will do well to keep it in mind and at heart.

The recent post by Kim A. Nguyen, universally well received here, shows that she knows this principle and puts it into practice.

However, a few Adobe staff and associates seem somehow to think that Adobe's customers are lowly adversaries in some sort of Internet game or in a newsgroup.  Those who manifest that misguided and poisonous attitude in this forum and in their blogs are showing their incompetence and their ignorance of basic business principles.  To them I say:  you're dead wrong!  You are far from being our superiors, you are our servants.

They should know well who they are—and we certainly do.

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Guest
Aug 07, 2009 Aug 07, 2009

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David


Thank you for your calm and reasoned post. It appears that you missed something though.


I have been posting in these forums for a long time (since Compuserve days) and it is something I do because I enjoy helping people. This whole outpouring of criticism towards van Dieten was triggered because he arbitrarily deleted without comment a post which he (wrongly) thought was personally directed at him and other moderators. He then compounded the error by responding in an unfriendly and very autocratic manner.


The deleted post was neither about him nor unfriendly. The allusion to a circus and lion tamers was an attempt – understood by others but not him – to lament the situation engendered by the move to this Jive software and the inevitable reaction of so many users to the very real difficulties which this move has created.


Tempers have become short over the months since adobe made this mistake and the situation has been exacerbated for those who did not leave in disgust (as many valuable helpers did) by the loss of some valuable on-line "friends".


The situation certainly needed bringing under control, but the reason this forum became a secondary lounge was because there was almost no feedback from Admin.

Moderation needs to be by people who earn respect. And it needs to be moderate.



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Advocate ,
Aug 07, 2009 Aug 07, 2009

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I certainly appreciate Jochem's efforts to improve these defective forums, and the email system - and I had nothing against Zeno.


However, it was a big mistake on Jochem's part not to 'assume good faith' by dave milbut, who is one of the most unlikely people around the forums to ever deserve such an accusation. Worse, he will not reconsider when told how offensive his comment was.


As I said, being a host does not confer the right to delete posts with the slightest real or imagined criticism, while simultaneously being gratuitously rude to contributors.


Also, inviting discussion of his moderating style, only to immediately reject it, does not engender respect.


Yes, we all make mistakes, especially when new in a job - admitting them goes a long way to restore that respect. A confrontational, 'like it or lump it' attitude certainly does not.

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Advocate ,
Aug 07, 2009 Aug 07, 2009

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... and I've just re-read my original post - I stand by it.

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Advocate ,
Aug 07, 2009 Aug 07, 2009

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I could have. I didn't. I will continue not to do so in the future. I am after all a poor, heavy handed host.

Confrontational. Stubborn. Thin-skinned. Sarcastic. If the job description for 'host' is any good, those qualities aren't in it.

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Advocate ,
Aug 08, 2009 Aug 08, 2009

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John Joslin wrote:

This whole outpouring of criticism towards van Dieten was triggered because he arbitrarily deleted without comment a post which he (wrongly) thought was personally directed at him and other moderators.

Actually in http://forums.adobe.com/message/2161763#2161763 you admit it was aimed at moderators.

But that aside, that was not because I suppress any and all criticism of moderation (look at this thread), but because it was in a thread about another subject. Anything that I consider an attempts to hijack a thread towards a discussion about moderation will be dealt with. If you want to discuss moderation you need to do that in another thread.

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Guest
Aug 08, 2009 Aug 08, 2009

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I give up!

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Advocate ,
Aug 08, 2009 Aug 08, 2009

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If you want to discuss moderation you need to do that in another thread.

Which you said I shouldn't have started.

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LEGEND ,
Aug 08, 2009 Aug 08, 2009

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John Joslin wrote:

The situation certainly needed bringing under control, but the reason this forum became a secondary lounge was because there was almost no feedback from Admin.

I can't speak on behalf of Adobe Admin, but try to put yourself in their position for a moment. This is a massive operation with hundreds of forums. Setting up and administering something of this scale would take a huge amount of effort, even if everything went smoothly, and everyone was delighted with the new setup. There are bugs, the system is slower than it should be, and there's a daily torrent of spam. On top of that, Adobe is a huge organization; and huge organizations are slow, bureaucratic creatures.

It's perfectly clear that a lot of people don't like the new system, and I'll be quite frank: there is a lot not to like. The fact is that this is the system we have got. I have no idea whether there's any chance of going back to the previous separate Macromedia and Adobe forums, but I doubt it very much. A project of this size will have cost a large stash of cash; and there will be contractual obligations that make a retreat difficult. Adobe's a big customer for Jive, so it should have some leverage to get things improved; but things like that take time and negotiation.

So, faced with all of these problems, where would you put your priority: drop everything to deal with a forum that you admit needed bringing under control, or get on with the job of trying to get the whole system running in a satisfactory manner?

The problem is this forum has degenerated into a cacophony, where sensible suggestions get drowned out in a mass of off-topic chatter.

In spite of the problems with the forum software, many product forums are vibrant. We've lost a lot of good friends and helpful people in the Dreamweaver forums, but the volume of posting hasn't diminished; and new people have emerged as useful contributors. Other people are making the best of an imperfect situation; and those who don't like it have left for other forums. So, what I suspect has happened here is that Adobe has just left you talking among yourselves. That's a pity, because good feedback could help improve the system down the line, even if not immediately.

Moderation needs to be by people who earn respect. And it needs to be moderate.

Agreed. There should rarely, if ever, be the need to edit or remove other people's posts. The Macromedia forums were not moderated. Disputes occasionally broke out, but were usually quickly settled through peer pressure. Even now, abuse reports on the former Macromedia side are rare. Unfortunately, this forum and the lounges have earned a reputation as bad neighbourhoods. Perhaps the residents should do something about restoring their reputation.

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Advocate ,
Aug 08, 2009 Aug 08, 2009

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You make a lot of sense, David.


However, if quite a lot of people are unhappy with the new forums, it stands to reason they are likely to come here with their protests - and their good, constructive suggestions, and their carefully written work-arounds.


Leaving people to grumble amongst themselves is a recipe for disorder - ever seen a classroom where the teacher absents him/herself for whatever reason?


Adults behave that way too sometimes


What is needed - and has been asked for, over and over again, is a regular progress report on fixing needed, or even wished-for improvements.


The other necessity is a regular host. As I indicated at the beginning, it's not an easy task, especially when things have begun to drift quite badly. If Oz can't be tempted back, and JC really doesn't have time, another host with the qualities that have already been described is necessary.


Jochem's attitude is just plain wrong and  will make things worse. It's a generally recognised fact that those with authority often need to demonstrate the courtesy and respect they want to encourage. This arrogant, adversarial wielding of the whip is causing resentment and will cause more - it will not help.


The regulars here are not bad people, and have tried very hard to help. Treating them/us with such arrogant disdain can only lead to trouble - or possibly a general emptying out. That might seem all very nice and peaceful, but amongst the chatter are a lot of very sensible suggestions and requests which it would be foolish to ignore. Also people flag up recently noticed bugs and make valid suggestions.


How hard can it possibly be to indicate that specific issues are known, have been recognised and can/can't or will/won't be fixed within a certain timescale? And is really that hard to identify a host with a bit of humour, courtesy and common sense?


(Oh, and the lounge was fine with Oz in charge!)

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Advocate ,
Aug 08, 2009 Aug 08, 2009

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Kath-H wrote:

How hard can it possibly be to indicate that specific issues are known, have been recognised and can/can't or will/won't be fixed within a certain timescale?

Part one and two are pretty easy, they are just a matter of investing time. The problem is the last part, that requires information that even paying customers are unable to extract from Jive. What that would really take is somebody to hack some scripts together to obtain that information from the non-public Jive bugtracker.

What issues are you interested in specifically?

And is really that hard to identify a host with a bit of humour, courtesy and common sense?

No, that part is easy. Convincing them to herd cats in this forum is the hard part

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Guest
Aug 08, 2009 Aug 08, 2009

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Always with the respect!


We might not conform to your standards but we are humans you know.

(And, anticipating your reply, lion tamers are fine people – my heros in fact!)

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LEGEND ,
Aug 08, 2009 Aug 08, 2009

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Kath-H wrote:

However, if quite a lot of people are unhappy with the new forums, it stands to reason they are likely to come here with their protests - and their good, constructive suggestions, and their carefully written work-arounds.

Of course, but what's the ratio of good, constructive suggestions to negative attacks on Adobe and individuals?

The other necessity is a regular host. As I indicated at the beginning, it's not an easy task, especially when things have begun to drift quite badly. If Oz can't be tempted back, and JC really doesn't have time, another host with the qualities that have already been described is necessary.

You are all adults. Perhaps a little self-discipline wouldn't do any harm.

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Advocate ,
Aug 08, 2009 Aug 08, 2009

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What if we also listed what we DO like about them?

You haven't been around this forum long, have you? We've done that. We've also been very specific about what is not liked and what should be changed.


Lack of feedback from Adobe > descent into chatter > lack of feedback and so on.


What I can't quite get my head round is this - we are all paying customers. Services are being provided. Indirectly, we do pay for the forums - where else does Adobe get its money from?


And yet we are the ones who are expected to behave in a particular way, for Adobe to provide what we feel is a satisfactory service (I'm thinking about Customer Service as well and yes, it's all related).


If someone has paid me for a product or service, and they are unhappy, my first reaction is not to tell them to ask nicely or I won't listen to them. I wouldn't tell them to exercise self-discipline. And if they kept complaining, I wouldn't employ Jochem to sort them out! (Maybe I should )

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Advocate ,
Aug 08, 2009 Aug 08, 2009

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what's the ratio of good, constructive suggestions to negative attacks on Adobe and individuals?

Deteriorating very rapidly! When the good, sensible suggestions are made over and over and over - and are apparently ignored, when people are told to stop repeating themselves but no indication of progress is given - inevitably the irritation level rises and the helpfulness drops off.


It's a two-way street - or it should be.

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Guide ,
Aug 08, 2009 Aug 08, 2009

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Kath,

These forums—and Adobe—no longer deserve our support.

When I next get logged off sometime later today, I'm not planning to log back on—ever again.  Adobe has effectively killed the forums, as they anihilated the Adobe Studio Exchange.

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Guest
Aug 08, 2009 Aug 08, 2009

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Ramón G Castañeda wrote:

When I next get logged off sometime later today, I'm not planning to log back on—ever again.

I am not surprised Ramón but it is sad to hear it. We've had our ups and downs over the years and you don't suffer fools gladly (any more than I do) but you, and your encyclopaedic knowledge, will be severely missed.


I don't want to believe it but it really does seem as if adobe intends to let the user to user forums wither and die.

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Guide ,
Aug 08, 2009 Aug 08, 2009

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Thanks, JJ.  I'll contact you privately after I'm logged off.

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Guest
Aug 08, 2009 Aug 08, 2009

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I can't speak on behalf of Adobe Admin, but try to put yourself in their position for a moment.

I did. I have "known" JC for a long time – also going back to Compuserve days – and I really sympathise with him. He was doing a great job with the WebX forums, but landing him with this lot was just not fair on adobe's part. It was obvious from that recorded discussion a few months back that the project was on dodgy ground, if not doomed from the start.


I have worked on multi-million international programmes and I know the signs.


What got the natives (including me I admit) restless was the almost total news blackout from May to now.

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Advocate ,
Aug 08, 2009 Aug 08, 2009

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I do not think it is necessary to discuss this moderation

My way or the highway.


Great way to gain and keep people's willing co-operation, Jochem - but I'm not sure that's what you want.

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Advocate ,
Aug 08, 2009 Aug 08, 2009

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there's a daily torrent of spam

More than before? If so, has anyone worked out why?

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LEGEND ,
Aug 08, 2009 Aug 08, 2009

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Kath-H wrote:

there's a daily torrent of spam

More than before?

I can only make comparisons with the level of spam in the Dreamweaver forum before and after. It is definitely higher, but mainly down to one particular individual who was spamming about ten Adobe forums several times a day, pumping out the same message in high speed bursts. Sometimes alerts came from forum users, but he was often caught within minutes by alert moderators.

Several accounts are deleted every day because of spam.

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Guest
Aug 08, 2009 Aug 08, 2009

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The new moderator's style may well eliminate the idle chit-chat but it will also extinguish the community spirit.

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Mentor ,
Aug 08, 2009 Aug 08, 2009

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This seems to be the current way to do things in forums. I visit Mozilla Forums and except for one group that more or less is like a lounge, one particular Moderator with ocassional help from other that are his subordinates have made it their aim to wring out every ounce of Community spirit there ever was. If the answered are not cold and unfeeling. Then post are treated as here.

I use to be a regualr contributor to the seaMonkey Group. and my post were quite welcome from the Macintosh Users. unfortunately the groups are not sperarated to platform and And when I posted, I was supposed to use my superman x-pray vision to determine whether it was Mac user or PC user. I was frequentently to told what to do with myself. and And any one that used a Mac was an item that started with cr. So I just decided after years of abuse That they could have it. I've received frequent request through email to come back as they were in bad need of Mac support, but just had one lone person trying to hang in there.

So it appears that support groups run by companies it the style to wring the life out of the forums. You just supposed to act loke robots, or Doctors. I always the object of any Forum eevn if the wrong one was to help, even if its to direct the person to the correct area.

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Guide ,
Aug 08, 2009 Aug 08, 2009

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John Joslin wrote:

The new moderator's style may well eliminate the idle chit-chat but it will also extinguish the community spirit.

JJ,

That's like saying that the nuclear bomb "extinguished the community spirit" in Hiroshima.  Heck, there's no community left any more!

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