1 Correct answer
Thank you, Paula. The product team posted this info some time ago Message from the Dreamweaver Product team , and while I understand that this does not directly speak to the kinds of users, it is pretty much in line with what we have seen in DW updates so far and the direction it is headed. During my discussions with the team at MAX, I did not hear of anything that isn't already addressed in this post.
In my opinion, these improvements still stay true to the promise of helping designers that want
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osgood_ wrote
ALsp wrote
I'm not sure what you are trying to say, but thanks for the link. We provide not only the tools to make Dreamweaver users more productive, we provide one-on-one telephone support and teaching. Perhaps this is not important to someone like you, but it is something Adobe is unable to provide. So it does have value. Your obsession with coding is, I believe a bit over the top, and perhaps not relevant to today's extensions, and this is where I disagree with your opinions. Our page layout tools, for example, are as valuable to coders as they are to beginners. We have widgets with features that I believe you could not program yourself... but if you understand JavaScript, you might learn some things. It's kind of like following a tune. Sometimes you need the first few notes to get you going.
All I was trying to imply in a kind of British sense of humour - all you need to do is bag a few extensions and plugins, job done, knock out a few business cards and it's as easy as that, you're now a fully qualified knowledgeable web developer capable of .............
I make no apology for my 'obsession' with coding, it's what seperates the wheat from the chaff. You must surely understand that, otherwise you would not be capable of doing what you produce, or don't you know any coding? Are you using an extension to build your extensions or is there actually some kind of skilled coding involved? I believe so.
I think your whole world revolves around extensions and little else maybe, not every thing is build with an extension. Where does that leaves those people who are reliant on extensions, especially those wishing to advance in the field of web development, when it comes to trouble-shooting even some simple coding?
As I've said before I would not expect the kind of people that I think extenisons are mainly aimed at to be able to code or even want to code but for the likes of a few people around here who put themselves forward as 'developers' yet rely on extensions/frameworks it's unbelievable, but then again allowances have to be made it is the DW forum, I accept that.
No problem about the link. If I can help those that need an extension get to the right place that's all good as we'll, of course there's a market place for the right kind of person, who is not interested in coding or trying to understand how it all works.
Nope. We know nothing about coding or programming. We just buy extensions that make extensions. Seriously? If I were a teenager, I would definitely be stringing together a bunch of OMGs 
We have many, many customers who us Harmony, for instance... who are advanced CSS authors, capable of using Flex to lay out a page. You know... the ones you just insulted They use Harmony, because it makes there work easier and faster, while still providing a means of quickly assigning custom user classes, or IDs, to take the tool way beyond what a non-coder would be able to.
Your arguments are not strong, Osgood. They really aren't.
ALsp wrote
osgood_ wrote
ALsp wrote
Your arguments are not strong, Osgood. They really aren't.
We'll your arguments aren't exactly bullet proof given that you accept you need to know coding to do what you do or maybe 'when the boot fits' its ok.
I'm sorry, but that makes no sense at all. Extension developers need to know coding, at a very high level, to make extensions. What does have to do with those who use extensions? The answer is obviously: nothing.
I would look around a bit and see what is happening out there Al. Yesterday I had to provide a very, very simple answer to a poster in this very forum who was using one of your extensions in their work. I assume because of that, or maybe as an attributing factor of using extensions, they didn't have the coding experience/knowledge required to put right what was a very simple problem..............so no, the ability to code has nothing to do with those that use extentions, someone else has to sort the problems out for them 
osgood_ wrote
I would look around a bit and see what is happening out there Al. Yesterday I had to provide a very, very simple answer to a poster in this very forum who was using one of your extensions in their work. I assume because of that, or maybe as an attributing factor of using extensions, they didn't have the coding experience/knowledge required to put right what was a very simple problem..............so no, the ability to code has nothing to do with those that use extentions, someone else has to sort the problems out for them
This is what makes your arguments weak. First of all, a small number of our customers post on this forum, primarily because they either do not read our documentation and jump into using a tool, or they are under the illusion that this forum is the ultimate place for Dreamweaver support. Most of our customers email us. Many telephone us. The rest post on our forum. Since I do not know what this issue was, it may or may not be specifically related to our extension, or it could be related to an older extension. It could also be an issue clearly described in the product's documentation. The bottom line is that in most cases, a customer like that would get walked through a solution and come out the other side knowing far more about CSS and/or markup then they knew going in .
Of course, some of our users are not licensed, and might tend to seek support outside our domain.
osgood_ wrote
ALsp wrote
osgood_ wrote
ALsp wrote
You are terribly insulting sometimes. But your argument leaks like a sieve. It usually does. Why don't you help us make an extension that you would use? Be helpful. Be civil. Perhaps you might even become more believable. I really hate to put you on the spot, but if you surprise me, and agree, then it might make you more of a builder and uniter, rather than a divider. Up for it?
And you dont think youre not insulting with your carefully disguised insults?
You keep implying my arguement leaks like a sieve and yet offer no explanation as to why you think this OP and lots like them who rely on extensions, frameworks, plugins etc lack the basic skills needed to put something right when it goes wrong. I see it in the forum on a daily basis, you seem to want to deny that a problem exists.
No, Osgood. I'm trying very hard not to insult you. I said your argument leaks like a sieve. I could have said your brain, but that would have been insulting . I think it's obvious that your insinuations about this customer of ours you helped lacks clarity and was intended to shade your opinions about extensions, ours in particular. That's what I find insulting. You seem to be inventing scenarios to sway people to your side. I have no idea why as this is not a debate. So my only conclusion is that you are compelled to cast a negative pall over extensions. Obsessive Compulsive Disorder, Extended Version?
https://forums.adobe.com/people/Nancy+OShea wrote
I honestly got more value from dissecting a few client-side extensions than I did from any of the books & tutorials I'd read up to that point. I used extensions as much to help me become a better coder as I did to expedite project completion.
We'll we all did that didn't we and soon realised 'hey I don't need this thing I thought was magic', it's only code and once I understand this code I can write my own code and expand upon this thing I have been using which wasnt quite right but I accepted it because I had no other option, I could not code and didnt understand what this thing was doing, but it worked, I was happy, to a certain point.
This thing was complex because it had to address many options and issues that's why I found it difficult to understand. Once I have the knowledege to be able to isolated the bits that I actually wanted to use it was only a few lines of code, not 200 lines of code.
https://forums.adobe.com/people/Nancy+OShea wrote
2) In the other product forums I visit, plugins are revered by advanced users as essential tools for doing professional work. That's not to say they are not capable of creating their own scripts, actions & presets (they do that too). But when you count up the hours required to write complex algorithms, then test & fine tune them, it's counter productive not to use 3rd party plugins when they can help you achieve better results with greater efficiency.
I don't know these other forums so I don't know what kind of people we are talking about. The time spent writing your own solutions usually balances itself out with the time spent either going through someone elses code/css etc when you need to do some alterations, I find. No-one I can think of really wants to work with other peoples code, naming conventions, etc. I would not be doing this if I had to rely on extensions/frameworks as I would not feel genuine.
Client: "We do like this navigation you have produced for us Os"
Os: "Actually I didn't do that:,
Client: "Oh well, we do like the image gallery"
Os: "I didn't do that either",
Client: "The method of validation on the feedback form is very slick"
Os: "Nope";
Client: "Never mind the design is a cracker"
Os: "Sorry, template - but here's the invoice anyway";
Client: "Chuckle, we'll at least you did the invoice";
Os: "Nope, my secretary did".
https://forums.adobe.com/people/Nancy+OShea wrote
3) It was not so long ago that DW users like Paula and David Powers, Massimo Forti and others were writing custom DW Extensions and giving them away on their websites. I had a great little extension that self-populated form Select lists with all the countries or all the states & provinces I needed.
I'm not taking about those kinds of extensions, they can be useful along with other scripts which remove blank lines from the code etc. I see them as superficial helpers, not something that forces particular workflows or method down your neck or as in the case of extensions can lead to lethagy leading to stagnation in ones progress and knowledege.
Point 2 is nowhere near the same. I'm sorry it's lost on you. If you used other products in the Adobe line, you might better understand the disparity that exists between DW's relationship with plugins/extensions vs that of other Adobe products. It's like night and day.
Point 3 is sadly not possible for all the reasons Paula mentioned. But it was very cool for coders while it lasted .
Nancy
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