Foundation & CSS Grid: Think Beyond the Page

[BenPleysier]

8-Track vs Compact Cassette, Betamax vs VHS, Foundation vs Bootstrap. Notice how I have placed the better technology first and comparing that to the more popular technology? In case of the first 2, the latter has won. The jury is out on the 3rd one

Have a look here Foundation & CSS Grid: Think Beyond the Page | ZURB Blog to make up your own mind.

[osgood_]

Looks like Foundation is light years ahead of Bootstrap at the moment when it comes to Grid. Bootstrap is still trying to work out Flexbox amongst other things..........................before officially releasing v4...................humm.

Oh well I may not even be doing this in a couple of years when I predict Grid will be the main stream way of constructing a website. I've already forgotten most of what I had learned about it. Same happened with Flexbox, learned it at a relatively early/mid stage, forgot all about it and had to re-learn when the time was right. Now its a workflow I always use. Same will probably happen to Grid if I'm still around. From what I recall it's not that difficult to get a simple Grid on the page and I have some examples in a folder somewhere........hey exciting times or relaxing ones, let's see.

[pziecina]

Thank you for the article link Ben,

As we have been discussing this for the last year for grids, and lots of years for flexbox. I don't think anyone will disagree with the conclusions made, (except maybe foundation leading the way ).

The problem is, and always will be over comming the negative "you cannot use them' thinkers, such as those in the articles comments section. Over the next year we will I expect see negative articles also appearing, and as for Dw I am making no comments anymore.

[Rob Hecker2]

If I adopted GRID now I would lose every one of my clients. There is no mobile support. So I am one of those 'you can't use them' thinkers.

My website structure doesn't work on Internet Explorer because of flexbox. Even though IE has very little market share now, I'm getting serious grief from clients over this. I adopted flexbox a year ago; probably a little too early.

I have no fear of learning a new method, and I would love to start working with grid, but I can't see that happening in 2017 or even 2018. The fact that someone with a slightly older phone won't be able to render GRID two years from now is the problem.

[BenPleysier]

If I adopted GRID now I would lose every one of my clients. There is no mobile support. So I am one of those 'you can't use them' thinkers.

I do agree with you Rob, I think that Foundation is being very optimistic in their outlook. I only just now updated my browsers and my feeling is that IE11/Edge is far from ready.

Having said that, browsers that do not recognise GRID will ignore it and if you design mobile first, GRID would probably not come into it. I am just theorising here,

Good future prospects though.

[pziecina]

The problem is not, "can i use", (pun intended) but is there an advantage to using, and if there is, how do we.

Mobile devices have become the new ie6, or even the new netscape, for those of us who remember having to use html tables for layout. With thought, one could i think use grids by the end of this year, but like the move from html tables to css layouts, a lot more experiance and experimentation in using grids is required first.

Without more examples of creating layouts, that are also acceptable when viewed on none supporting mobiles, no one who is not an expert in css will look at grids for years to come. After all people were still using html tables, and saying how easy they were to use 10 years after we started to use css for layouts, and the one thing i have learned over the years, is that people do not change willingly.

[Rob Hecker2]

. . . but is there an advantage to using

Yes, I don't argue the advantages. They are clear.

As for design for mobile first and let browsers that can't use the tech ignore it. . . that approach has not worked out for flexbox, so I can't see it working for grid either.

I realize many of you have already discussed this at length. This is my first time entering the grid discussion.

I'm surprised that ZURB is moving forward with this now.

[pziecina]

https://forums.adobe.com/people/Rob+Hecker2  wrote

I'm surprised that ZURB is moving forward with this now.

I must be one of the few that is not.

The reason for that, is I think because of what has happened with flexbox. Developers have become frustrated with users who never update their browsers for years, and even continue to insist that they cannot update, even when the browsers they insist on using, (IE9 and below) are no longer safe to use. This is also now happening with mobile devices.

The only reason Netscape stopped being used was because we stopped developing for it, and that will always be the case, so long as we continue supporting and not pointing out why people should not use older browsers, (security risks, etc) then we are doing the same as those who refused to use css for layout.

[Rob Hecker2]

Then I salute the avant garde who will pave the way for those like me, who must wait for near universal support.

[pziecina]

It won't be me, I retire in 12-18 months

Sorry, I should have said, "I retire completel in 12-18 months", I'm already retired, just working part-time.

[Nancy OShea]

Let ZURB pave the way if they must.  But with global support at a measly 6.28%, CSS Grids is a total non-starter for me.

[pziecina]

Support now is irrelevant. By the end of this year, (which everyone is talking about) it will be about 85%.

Plus, zurb is also using a pollfill for none supporting browsers, which anyone else can also do. The argument that that relies on js being enabled is also irrelevant as Bootstrap requires jQuery to work correctly, (try it without) and many users have been using the html5 shim and media-query shim, both polyfills. Without them IE8 and below only display the smartphone layout in mobile first css, (all html/css frameworks are mobile first).

[pziecina]

Going off-topic here, but is 'caniuse' a reliable statistic anymore for browser support?

The reason i ask this, is that we are now about 50/50 for those using desktop vs those using mobile for internet usage. Looking at the 'caniuse' statistics, 21 desktop browsers are used, compared to only 7 mobile browsers for determining usage, which does not represent the correct proportions of users for both types.

Of course one must then ask, how many mobile users are actually using their OS's browser and not an app. or the facebook app, which would also be counted as using the internet, those using the mobile app version of the desktop browser and not the built in browser, would also have to be taken into consideration, and how often do browser app users update.

[osgood_]

I'm sticking with Flexbox for a couple of years and then will revisit Grids as and when it starts waking up. Its asleep at moment.

[pziecina]

Just tested the css grid inspector in firefox, and it actually works, if you wish to try it yourself -

https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Tools/Page_Inspector/How_to/Examine_grid_layouts