Jquery menus for DW CC

[bradm44645584]

So Spry is gone in DW CC. Spry of course made deploying menus very quick and easy. Does anyone have any suggestions for an equivalent tool for menus using Jquery?

Thanks

[turner111]

FWIW I just popped in to find out what's new with the included menu-building functionality.... ouch.

[Nancy OShea]

Why not go directly to the source?

http://api.jqueryui.com/menu/

Nancy O.

[bradm44645584]

Why not expect Adobe to keep its promises?

[turner111]

Hi Nancy...

"Why not go directly to the source?"

Basically, for the same reason I use Illustrator instead of learning a programming language to create graphics...

[Nancy OShea]

Web development is all about code.  And Since jQuery and jQuery UI are constantly being updated, it's in your best interests to get them directly from the source.  DW can't possibly keep up with the changes in jQuery any more than it could with Phone Gap Build which has since been removed from DW. 

Nancy O.

[bradm44645584]

Why do you shill for Adobe?

[Nancy OShea]

Look, I am not shilling for anybody.   For every other 3rd party app or extension I use, I get updates directly from the source, not Adobe.  Why should it be any different with jQuery?  Just saying...

Nancy O.

[bradm44645584]

Because this is much like the design view thread. When we pay a premium for DW and when popular features are removed it will draw criticism from us. When it comes to J query they added plenty of functions, but left off a menu feature. Why is that?  They promised in this thread that it would be replaced on the next release... but that never happened. Why should we accept that?

Why should we pay the same price for DW if we have to pay more for 3rd party extensions? If we have to go to 3rd party extensions? Why no drop the price of DW

This is much like the design view thread. You refuse to understand and get indignant when anyone takes issue with how they removed it. Not everyone does their work like you do. We want the Jquery menu function added, you don't. We want design view back, you don't. Why is it acceptable to you for DW to continue to remove functions that we want and pay for?

If you are not shilling for Adobe.. then what is it? This is thread number 2 that I have seen you defend the removal of functions for DW that you don't use in the first place. Will I find more if I looked? 

[Herbert2001]

turner111 wrote:

"Why not go directly to the source?"

Basically, for the same reason I use Illustrator instead of learning a programming language to create graphics...

In that case you would be better off using Muse, instead of Dreamweaver. DW is a coding environment, with some visual assistance to speed up development. Muse allows you to layout a web page without any coding at all.

Anyway, the trouble for the DW team is that frameworks for html, css, and js evolve and change so fast, that it becomes a nightmare to support even just the most popular ones. With DW's slow update cycle it is always lagging behind.

As for menus and the like, adding a framework like Foundation saves a lot of time.

That said, a good solution would be a template library for the most popular frameworks that is updated whenever a new version is available. For example, creating a new site project in Dreamweaver would give you an option to choose a framework, and it would setup all the files, folders, and assets automatically for you. This is how it works in IDEs like Netbeans, and it really saves a lot of setup time. When new versions of the templates become available, Netbeans automatically updates itself.

It would be nice if Dreamweaver would implement a similar system.

[bradm44645584]

The netbeans comparison is a good one. But in the Adobe world, the idea of moving to Muse because we want features that DW doesn't work. Because we want features like Jquery menu doesn't mean we want to avoid the code outright. It is the job of Adobe to keep the updates as current as possible, but to keep an eye on what we need and want. That is what we pay them for.  The removal of core functions that many of us use is just unacceptable.

[Herbert2001]

I do not believe that Nancy has ever argued that there should not be a design view - only that the current design view must be replaced by a modernized one that works with modern standards. It was the DW development team's mistake to bring out a half-hearted version where things were broken, and no viable alternative is given.

Anyway, I feel that the DW dev team is somewhat strained, and they have to pick their battles. Things move very fast in web development.

[bradm44645584]

Pick there battles.. I agree, the battles they have been picking lately have been poor ones.

Nancy has been quite dismissive of design view advocating to get rid of it outright, the only time she relented even in the slightest when she was piled on by people who felt this move was a wrong one. I just now see her bringing the same dismissive views onto this thread because she does things differently. I may be zeroing in on her a bit much, but I see this site have its share of those who feel their way is the only way. And they refuse to acknowledge that others have different methods to their madness and may require more out of DW (or other Adobe apps) then they do. 

With Adobe making promises they haven't kept (like this thread) and considerable screw ups (like the DV thread) I just question the motives of people who seem oblivious to the wider impact outside of what is happening on their own work.

[Preran]

Hi madwebllc,

Everyone on this forum is entitled to their opinion. Because MVPs on the forum have been around longer than others and have considerable years of expertise, their confidence derived from experience is sometimes misconstrued as being dismissive of other opinions. While the forums are monitored by people like me that take collective feedback from what is being discussed here, our MVPs help other users like you on a daily basis.  Their singular motive has been to assist users with the problem at hand.

As for taking cognizance of opinions, user feedback from forums is analyzed and reported to the product team. The team prioritizes requests from various quarters, including the forums, based on various factors, including the product roadmap.

Thanks,

Preran

[bradm44645584]

MVP.. or not.. I misconstrued  nothing. I am not blind to the fact that Nancy or others of her stripe bring in depth experience to the table. Its just some like Nancy are tone deaf to the methods others use to do their work. What they label as failures of Adobe (or words to that effect) work great for others.  Someone here suggested using Muse. Quite frankly I find MS Frontpage a more effective solution then Muse.

But to the broader reason why folks like Nancy have drawn mine and others ire is our expectations of Adobe to listen to its customers. In this thread you made comments that would lead a reasonable person to believe a menu function would have been added long ago.. It hasn't.. With respects to DV on the other thread I can see clearly that Adobe staff is being very careful not make any serious commitments publicly on what is next for that. And when I read "The team prioritizes requests from various quarters, including the forums, based on various factors, including the product roadmap." that just sounds like a rabbit hole statement that doesn't lead to much.  And I see people like Nancy who are offering alternatives solutions, but playing Adobe apologists.

Am I being harsh? Yes, but this is how it works. Our clients demand much out of us, in turn we demand much out of the products from Adobe to deliver those results. Adobe so far has delivered with exceptional results, but lately has stumbled. Some have implied that too much is expected of the Adobe team. Last time I used that explanation on a customer that customer dropped my company.

So that is what I am driving at. We pay Adobe to deliver. I come here to get information and voice concerns. Not to be told that my methods don't work and shouldn't be part of the products I pay for.

[Preran]

The reason why we do not commit anything on a public platform is because information about an update isn't final until testing is complete and the update is ready for public release.

As messengers, Adobe employees engaged on the forum try to provide as much information as we can based on the company's policy.

[Herbert2001]

Sure, but some kind of vague roadmap would be great for your users. That's what other software companies do that are more in line with current social network thinking. And their users respond in a very positive way to such a way of treating your customers, instead of keeping everyone in the dark. In the past such secrecy was understandable, because of the old update cycle, but honestly, it just does not make sense with a rental model - you want to keep your users interested and enthusiastic about your software, and a roadmap/open beta is just the way to do so.

Adobe's behaviour in this (and other) respect is very much keeping to an outdated business model.

That is what makes no sense: trying to go all "cloud" on the one hand, but on the other still limited to an old-school business mindset.

Of course, Preran, this is not your fault - you are merely taking the flak caused by your higher management's decisions.

[Herbert2001]

madwebllc wrote:

Someone here suggested using Muse. Quite frankly I find MS Frontpage a more effective solution then Muse.

Woah, wait a minute there, that was me merely responding (cheekily, granted) to a black-or-white fallacy comment earlier in this thread. I wouldn't even touch Muse with a ten-foot pole for any web project due to its abysmal code output.

So it is taken out of context. The problem with text-only communication like these forum is that we lose more than 90% of the intent of the message, and it leads to misunderstandings. I always try to read between the lines, more than anything else.

I still think you have misunderstood Nancy's intentions in regards to the Design View - I am reading a very different intent behind her words, and I do not see her as an Adobe apologist at all (and I have read other posts by her that lead me to believe it is the opposite - she is trying to be constructive instead of overly critical, which generally leads nowhere: solution-oriented thinking rather than problem-oriented thinking). Please do not make her into a strawman.

I do agree with you that Adobe's DW team should be more careful in the future regarding the implementation and removal of features - it needs a kick-ass modernized live view that is quick and flexible for visual editing of content. It used to be one of the main strengths of DW, and it no longer is. Just try out Macaw to see how a excellently implemented live view can work (or PineGrow) The legacy DV will (and should) be removed, but I totally concur that this is not the way to go about it, by removing features users depend on, and then expecting them to just roll over, not providing any fall backs or alternative workflows.

It is also completely wrong to abuse your regular user base as a bunch of beta testers - but then again, since Adobe went CC subscription-only I have noticed a tendency to regard their users as one super duper beta tester group - with most of their products. But perhaps that is just me.

[bradm44645584]

Your post above had this reply in part.

"In that case you would be better off using Muse, instead of Dreamweaver. DW is a coding environment, with some visual assistance to speed up development. Muse allows you to layout a web page without any coding at all."

That didn't sound "cheekily" or in jest at all, but rather a serious reply to someone who had same concerns as I. If it was, so be it and I read that wrong. It was however just another example I saw here and elsewhere of the dismissive attitudes shown by some when people may present questions that seem amateur to them.  Its not helpful at all.

Side Note: I retract what I said about Muse comparing it to MS FrontPage. If Muse makes you a product you and your customer are happy with.. keep using it and best of luck.

You do bring up a great point about Adobe business model in this situation. It is out of date and it does give the impression of trying to keep customers in the dark. That is another aspect of what is frustrating with menu and DV for that matter.  Case in point a post from Preran dated "July 24th 2013

"About the query on why we did not introduce jQuery menu widgets in CC (version 13.0), it was because the jQuery menu module (specification) wasn't quite complete at that time.

We definitely have a plan to integrate jQuery menu widget in Dreamweaver, but we are still working on a date for this one."

I think a reasonable person would expect this would be done by now.  But fast forward to a day ago from Preran:

"The reason why we do not commit anything on a public platform is because information about an update isn't final until testing is complete and the update is ready for public release.

As messengers, Adobe employees engaged on the forum try to provide as much information as we can based on the company's policy."

So which message do I listen to? With the way things are going right now that question won't get a straight answer. So again to your point.. the way the message is given needs to change.

[Nancy OShea]

I feel that the DW dev team is somewhat strained, and they have to pick their battles. Things move very fast in web development.

Amen.   DW's relatively small development team must prioritize tasks and stay focused on what made DW great in the first place which is HTML, CSS and JavaScript editing.

<Nancy has been quite dismissive of design view advocating to get rid of it outright>

You can demonize me all you want but I never said that.  I am on record for saying Design View is broken and needs to be replaced with something better.  It makes no difference to me what they call it.  It just needs to work for all levels of users. 

Re: Is there any way to display the Design View in fluid grid pages?

<When it comes to J query they added plenty of functions, but left off a menu feature. Why is that?>

Because when CC (13) first released, jQuery (at the 11th hour) pulled its menu widget from the UI bundle.  CC was forced to roll out without a menu.  It was many months before the menu widget was finally re-introduced to the jQuery UI.  With all the other changes taking place in DW, it's not too surprising that this got overlooked.  

Historically, DW (Adobe & Macromedia days) has put out some of the worst menu systems imaginable.  Consider MM_Rollover menus.  A mess that never should have happened. You can read the whole sordid story about them below written by the guy who created them.

http://losingfight.com/blog/2006/08/12/the-sordid-tale-of-mm_menufw_menujs/

In 2006, Spry was introduced as a replacement for those unfortunate MM_Rollovers but the code was still really bloated and people struggled to make them work.  Of course Spry was never responsive or touch screen friendly.  By 2012 Spry had outlived its usefulness and Adobe abandoned it.

I think it's interesting that the majority of code editors and web authoring apps DO NOT contain a navigation menu in the core software.  These are usually provided by other better solutions in frameworks -- Bootstrap & Foundation for example, and from 3rd party plugins/extension developers. 

In this day & age, no one should deprive themselves of a good navigation system when so many options are readily available online.  If you crave jQuery menus, you can get one directly from  jQuery UI menu and style it with ThemeRoller.   Despite what you may think of me, this is not an heretical point of view. God helps those who help themselves.

End of story.  That's all I have to say about the subject of menus.

Nancy O.

[Herbert2001]

Aside from the technical issues, the real question from a UX design point of view, should always be: can I avoid a drop down menu system in the first place? Traditional drop down menus that immediately popup the instant you hover over a menu entry are just about the worst method to solve a website's navigation. It means you have not really thought about a navigation strategy. And don't even consider a second level of sub menus. Just *don't*. Of course, you cannot always avoid them, and if you really need one, keep them one level only.

I have noticed that web UX designers have caught up in regards to this idea, and the traditional drop-downs are avoided more and more.

Nancy, thanks for that link to the MM_Rollover menus - I recall those, and they were absolutely painful to use 🙂  Interesting read.

Dreamweaver has not had much luck with menu systems indeed.

[ALsp]

madwebllc wrote:

So Spry is gone in DW CC. Spry of course made deploying menus very quick and easy. Does anyone have any suggestions for an equivalent tool for menus using Jquery?

Thanks

jQuery menus are only as good as the person writing the jQuery stub - or plugin. Most are not very good in a broad sense. If you want "easy" in Dreamweaver, automation, and full and unlimited support - along with the best menu system there is - you might want to look at PMM3:

http://www.projectseven.com/products/menusystems/pmm3/demos/index.htm

The PMM brand has been the finest menu system available for Dreamweaver for over 10 years. It's not free. It is simply the best.

[Guest]

how to insert JQuery UI into dreamweaver?

[Preran]

Hi nailat,

See How to use jQuery UI and mobile widgets in Dreamweaver for using jquery widgets in Dreamweaver.

I am locking this discussion because it is an old thread, and has gotten too long. I encourage all of you with a related question to start a new post.

Thanks,

Preran

[squeak2me]

I have been using DW as well as teaching it at a college for years. I started with this program when it was Macromedia... I'm shocked by some of the discussion here.  I have been teaching web 1 (intro to HTML & DW), Web 2 (DW and CSS) and web 3 (CMS) for years. I have 100's of students of experience that MANY people - new, and experienced, are in need of quick and easy tools to accomplish their needs.  The learning curve is STEEP. and that hill takes time to climb. Let alone to get prepared for the next step - JavaScript, JQuery, PHP, etc. They even have to learn about servers, and domain names, and FTP etc. etc. Some people master Dreamweaver and the included FTP - and never move past it. They are amazing designers... but not developers.

First - we had a navigation builder that allowed the same states for navigation as Flash has (up, over, down, etc.). This was a quick, fun, and easy way to build a navigation system. They removed that system - but they replaced it with (IMHO a much better option) Spry. I would not call Spry a failure... it was a quick and useful tool that made building navigation really fast - and set the need for modifying CSS, but not having to build it from scratch.

Now - even the spry menu is gone. Tsk Tsk Adobe... You shouldn't remove a tool/function without replacing it when you ask people to spend money again to have an upgrade. I don't believe an upgrade should ever LOSE a function completely... I don't mind learning a new tool or better way... but to have things completely taken away? Yikes!  I'm glad we don't teach at the college using the CC version. I will hold back my other complaints here, but so far... CC has not made me the happiest - I keep running into road blocks.

On the bright side... Edge Animate - super cool tool - a CSS/HTML 5 version of Flash... if you haven't tried it yet, then get into it and have some fun! And if you like to work with code - then the Edge CC Coding program is great too - unfortunately, my major  disappointment? The preview portion of it only works with the ONE browser I don't/won't use... Chrome - so that sucks.

Anyway - I look forward to a resolution being found, and don't accept for one moment that it shouldn't be up to them to provide an upgraded tool... in their upgraded tool. If no upgrade to Spry is included here - then it should be left alone until one is figured out.

Just my opinion.... and just as an FYI: I'm fairly savvy with JavaScript, and Jquery... but it doesn't mean that it doesn't take me more time to have to write it, or modify it, and when you have a lot of sites to complete, update, and manage... for clients who can't afford to pay as much... it's not feasible for me to always have to go there. I need DW to be my tool of choice. Sadly, I'm finding myself turning more and more towards WordPress for a quick and easy build... not a good sign when it is free and my software costs money.

[lifeguardlloyd]

My Advanced CSS Menu Light for Dreamweaver has developed an odd behavior: the drop down menus lose the text in live mode. Odd.