Newbie: Want to use Drmwvr - BUT Svr side guy uses Vis Website Dvlpr with .Net 2.0 & Msft SQL Svr Mgmt Studio Expr

Report · Jun 22, 2006

OK for all you experts out there on the server side.....

I just finished up an Intermediate Dreamweaver class and we didn't discuss connecting to databases via Dreamweaver.

Which is fine and its taught in other classes I am sure. However I was planning to stay on the design side and learn a little bit about the server side.

But the issue I have is that someone at my company has designed a website using Visual Website Developer with .Net 2.0 and Microsoft SQL Server Management Studio Express database. I got involved because there is hope of not having our intranet designed in this package but instead Dreamweaver. The developer of the current Intranet is a server side guy and is going over my head when explaining and showing me how to connect to a database using Visual Web Developer.

I wanted to learn about that Visual Web Developer product ONLY so I could then try to understand how to connect to a SQL Server Management Studio express database. So can Dreamweaver connect to a database such as this via .NET? Can someone explain in preschool terminology how this all works together and what my options are with Dreamweaver?

I am just trying to figure out what to do.... and how to understand all this. I know this developer has gone to a lot of work on the server side working in this environment. So I don't know how our skills are going to "gel" together given I am just the Dreamweaver nerdette.

Thanks,
Angie

Report · Jun 22, 2006

Angie

I am afraid that I have some bad news for here. Dreamweaver does not know to
handle ASP.Net 2.0 controls. The ASP.Net database connection is based around
a class that Macromedia wrote and does not use standard ADO code. Therefore
for 2.0 data connection it is better to stick with visual web developer.

All is not lost though. You can still do the base layouts in DW and then
open them in VWD to add the controls.

--
Paul Whitham
Certified Dreamweaver MX2004 Professional
Adobe Community Expert - Dreamweaver

Valleybiz Internet Design
www.valleybiz.net

"computerkitten" <webforumsuser@macromedia.com> wrote in message
news:e7f56o$3td$1@forums.macromedia.com...
> OK for all you experts out there on the server side.....
>
> I just finished up an Intermediate Dreamweaver class and we didn't discuss
> connecting to databases via Dreamweaver.
>
> Which is fine and its taught in other classes I am sure. However I was
> planning to stay on the design side and learn a little bit about the
> server
> side.
>
> But the issue I have is that someone at my company has designed a website
> using Visual Website Developer with .Net 2.0 and Microsoft SQL Server
> Management Studio Express database. I got involved because there is hope
> of
> not having our intranet designed in this package but instead Dreamweaver.
> The
> developer of the current Intranet is a server side guy and is going over
> my
> head when explaining and showing me how to connect to a database using
> Visual
> Web Developer.
>
> I wanted to learn about that Visual Web Developer product ONLY so I could
> then
> try to understand how to connect to a SQL Server Management Studio express
> database. So can Dreamweaver connect to a database such as this via .NET?
> Can
> someone explain in preschool terminology how this all works together and
> what
> my options are with Dreamweaver?
>
> I am just trying to figure out what to do.... and how to understand all
> this.
> I know this developer has gone to a lot of work on the server side working
> in
> this environment. So I don't know how our skills are going to "gel"
> together
> given I am just the Dreamweaver nerdette.
>
> Thanks,
> Angie
>
>

Report · Jun 23, 2006

Hello All,

Thanks for the feedback and I am really quite bummed about all this. Yes I could learn VWD but I don't like it at all. Also I have spent the last 2 years in school learning all about Dreamweaver and have an opportunity to work on the Intranet and now it looks like I can't use it. OK Paul did say I could do the base layout...but can I do base layouts/templates too in DW and then open them in Visual Web Developer? Not sure if a DW template would then work in VWD as those are Master pages I believe. I personally don't care for VWD. Example... CSS and its tag inspector and the whole work flow with Dreamweaver seems so much easier to use than VWD.

Is there any way around this in that the database could be accessed via Dreamweaver still but not going through ASP .Net 2.0? I did see some sort of connection in Dreamweaver for ASP but that is the extent I know. Or I wonder if the coding changes would be extreme for the developer. My boss is the one to make the final decision of what direction we go in. What are the options with using Dreamweaver and then accessing the database he has already worked on in Microsoft SQL Server?

I appreciate any of your feedback.

Angie

Report · Jun 23, 2006

"computerkitten" <webforumsuser@macromedia.com> wrote in message
news:e7h8e2$oi9$1@forums.macromedia.com...
> Is there any way around this in that the database could be accessed via
> Dreamweaver still but not going through ASP .Net 2.0? I did see some sort
> of
> connection in Dreamweaver for ASP but that is the extent I know. Or I
> wonder
> if the coding changes would be extreme for the developer.

He would have to throw away almost everything he's done and start again.
I'd call that extreme.
You can create the page layout in Dreamweaver using templates and
everything. You can open those pages in VWD to add your controls. After
doing that, you can STILL open the pages in DW if you need to edit the
template or something. DW is good about leaving server-side code alone if
you stay away from its built-in server behaviors. You can't edit the DW
template in VWD, and VWD will not prevent template-locked markup from being
changed in a child page, so just be careful of what you're doing.

Report · Jun 23, 2006

Angie

Templates and Master Pages are similar in concept but entirely different in
delivery. The template is basically a design tool. When you make a change to
the template it will modify all of the pages that use it, but you then have
to load all those pages up to the server.

If you opened one of these pages in an editor you will see a full set of
page code.

The Master Page link to the pages based on it, is a server action. You only
change the master page, and load that and all the pages immediately reflect
the change. Pages that are created from the Master page do not contain any
code other than that which has been created on that page.

--
Paul Whitham
Certified Dreamweaver MX2004 Professional
Adobe Community Expert - Dreamweaver

Valleybiz Internet Design
www.valleybiz.net

"computerkitten" <webforumsuser@macromedia.com> wrote in message
news:e7h8e2$oi9$1@forums.macromedia.com...
> Hello All,
>
> Thanks for the feedback and I am really quite bummed about all this. Yes
> I
> could learn VWD but I don't like it at all. Also I have spent the last 2
> years
> in school learning all about Dreamweaver and have an opportunity to work
> on the
> Intranet and now it looks like I can't use it. OK Paul did say I could do
> the
> base layout...but can I do base layouts/templates too in DW and then open
> them
> in Visual Web Developer? Not sure if a DW template would then work in VWD
> as
> those are Master pages I believe. I personally don't care for VWD.
> Example...
> CSS and its tag inspector and the whole work flow with Dreamweaver seems
> so
> much easier to use than VWD.
>
> Is there any way around this in that the database could be accessed via
> Dreamweaver still but not going through ASP .Net 2.0? I did see some sort
> of
> connection in Dreamweaver for ASP but that is the extent I know. Or I
> wonder
> if the coding changes would be extreme for the developer. My boss is the
> one
> to make the final decision of what direction we go in. What are the
> options
> with using Dreamweaver and then accessing the database he has already
> worked on
> in Microsoft SQL Server?
>
> I appreciate any of your feedback.
>
> Angie
>

Report · Jun 25, 2006

Hi Angie,

... and I have some good news. It's not about Dreamweaver OR Visual Studio OR Expression Web designer, it's about using the best tool for the job. Dreamweaver is a highly refined page development tool with some ASP.net 1.1 capability. Depending on the project it may be all the tool that is needed.

Visual Studio 2005 is a great tool under certain circumstances. But it absolutely falls short under others. And although Expression Web Designer has the potential to rivial Dreamweaver (particularly if Adobe continues to sit out ASP.net 2, hoping it will go away...), it isn't going to happen overnight and we're probably looking at version 3 or 4 before the bugs are all worked out and refinements are put in.

We have found a happy medium using both tools, almost on every project. Although it is true that DW does not visually render ASP.net 2 controls, this should be considered a mild annoyance rather than a fatal flaw. It can be worked around, and the overhead to do so is actually minimal after you get used to it. I usually have DW and VS 2005 open on the same project at the same time. Today I needed to work on ASP.net 2.0 stuff visually and had Expression Web Designer also open as well, since Visual Studio CSS support stinks.

I would hope someday to have all my work done in a single package, just like it used to be (all in Dreamweaver), but that's not going to happen anytime soon.

Rick

Report · Jun 25, 2006

Thanks for all the responses everyone! I have a lot of questions how this all works because I know I will have to meet with the boss pretty soon about all this and I need a better grasp of what the ASP and VWD environment. The reason my boss doesn't understand this is because the server side developer was hired at a different location and before our company took over theirs. So its sorta like the server side guy has done a lot of work but nobody at our location understands really what he does. We just know we have a few pages of an intranet that is done. Example phone directory lookup which is cool for all the employees.

What kind of support does Dreamweaver have though for ASP.net 1.1? I saw that Rick mentioned that so wanted to clarify like how far can Dreamweaver go with supporting that?

What are the options though if ASP.net 2.0 and VWD were dropped from the equation? In other words...what could be used with Dreamweaver to pull data in from the database and do this server side stuff? Just curious because I know this guy has gone to a lot of work.

Also, what are controls in VWD that Dreamweaver doesn't support...like examples? It sounds like though I could do the page design in Dreamweaver and hand it over to him to edit the page in VWD to add his server side stuff. I admit I would be a little bit worried about something going into the code that when I later try to pull it up in Dreamweaver it wouldn't like it... thoughts about that?

Thanks a bunch.
Angie

Report · Jun 25, 2006

Angie

I terms of ASP1.1 DW does an okay job if all you are after is simple records
displays, master/detail pages and update pages. When MM designed it they
created a custom class that handles all of the interaction with the
database. In many ways they made it simple for someone coming from ASP to
create pages. DW could not render controls though, so if you placed say a
datagrid on the page, you could not see what it looked like in design view.
It should be said that at the time there were no toolds that rendered the
controls in design view.

While this implementation of ASP.Net1.1 met the simplier needs to issue that
came about was that if you needed to do something a little more advanced it
severaly limited you.

In terms of ASP2.0 DW there are a whole lot of new controls (around 50 I
believe) that are simply not listed in DW, and that is why we are telling
you to use something else.

If you want to drop 2.0 & VWD out of the equation then you could design
using 1.1 in DW, or resort back to using classic ASP.

--
Paul Whitham
Certified Dreamweaver MX2004 Professional
Adobe Community Expert - Dreamweaver

Valleybiz Internet Design
www.valleybiz.net

"computerkitten" <webforumsuser@macromedia.com> wrote in message
news:e7msuo$pts$1@forums.macromedia.com...
> Thanks for all the responses everyone! I have a lot of questions how this
> all
> works because I know I will have to meet with the boss pretty soon about
> all
> this and I need a better grasp of what the ASP and VWD environment. The
> reason
> my boss doesn't understand this is because the server side developer was
> hired
> at a different location and before our company took over theirs. So its
> sorta
> like the server side guy has done a lot of work but nobody at our location
> understands really what he does. We just know we have a few pages of an
> intranet that is done. Example phone directory lookup which is cool for
> all
> the employees.
>
> What kind of support does Dreamweaver have though for ASP.net 1.1? I saw
> that
> Rick mentioned that so wanted to clarify like how far can Dreamweaver go
> with
> supporting that?
>
> What are the options though if ASP.net 2.0 and VWD were dropped from the
> equation? In other words...what could be used with Dreamweaver to pull
> data in
> from the database and do this server side stuff? Just curious because I
> know
> this guy has gone to a lot of work.
>
> Also, what are controls in VWD that Dreamweaver doesn't support...like
> examples? It sounds like though I could do the page design in Dreamweaver
> and
> hand it over to him to edit the page in VWD to add his server side stuff.
> I
> admit I would be a little bit worried about something going into the code
> that
> when I later try to pull it up in Dreamweaver it wouldn't like it...
> thoughts
> about that?
>
> Thanks a bunch.
> Angie
>

Report · Jun 22, 2006

I'd say that any tool/technology has a learning curve, whether one is
steeper than the other is irrelevant because your knowledge of the tool
increases in proportion to how much time you spend learning the tool.

That being said, if you use Dreamweaver for ASP.NET development (all
arguments concerning it's "lack of support for 2.0" aside) then eventually
you'll master the tool. However, you put it cleanly when you said your
skillset and the other guy's skillset won't gel.

If you start learning VWD at this moment, then your knowledge of
ASP.NET/databases is no further along than with where you are in DW.
Therefore, you have nothing to lose - and alot to gain - by getting VWD, SQL
Server Express, and the Express Management Studio and diving head first into
that set of tools for developing .NET applications.

You'll want to take small steps at first, just basic database retrieval
operations and getting result sets to display in different databound
controls. Eventually you'll progress to the other CRUD operations with
databases.

It all takes time, and dedication. Just hang in there and stick with it,
cause eventually it gets fun.

I can't point you to resources concerning beginning with VWD other than
asp.net and http://msdn.microsoft.com/vstudio/express/default.aspx

In my opinion, I'd highly recommend using VWD for your ASP.NET development.

Ron

"computerkitten" <webforumsuser@macromedia.com> wrote in message
news:e7f56o$3td$1@forums.macromedia.com...
> OK for all you experts out there on the server side.....
>
> I just finished up an Intermediate Dreamweaver class and we didn't discuss
> connecting to databases via Dreamweaver.
>
> Which is fine and its taught in other classes I am sure. However I was
> planning to stay on the design side and learn a little bit about the
> server
> side.
>
> But the issue I have is that someone at my company has designed a website
> using Visual Website Developer with .Net 2.0 and Microsoft SQL Server
> Management Studio Express database. I got involved because there is hope
> of
> not having our intranet designed in this package but instead Dreamweaver.
> The
> developer of the current Intranet is a server side guy and is going over
> my
> head when explaining and showing me how to connect to a database using
> Visual
> Web Developer.
>
> I wanted to learn about that Visual Web Developer product ONLY so I could
> then
> try to understand how to connect to a SQL Server Management Studio express
> database. So can Dreamweaver connect to a database such as this via .NET?
> Can
> someone explain in preschool terminology how this all works together and
> what
> my options are with Dreamweaver?
>
> I am just trying to figure out what to do.... and how to understand all
> this.
> I know this developer has gone to a lot of work on the server side working
> in
> this environment. So I don't know how our skills are going to "gel"
> together
> given I am just the Dreamweaver nerdette.
>
> Thanks,
> Angie
>
>

Report · Jun 23, 2006

Actually, Microsoft Expression Web Designer CTP 1 (EWD) would be a better
recommendation. EWD is the so-called "Dreamweaver Killer" now in beta which
Microsoft calls "Community Technology Previews." While there are some
refinements that lag behind there is much to be said about that claim noting
after all its only CTP1 I'm talking about here.

For more insight see:
news://microsoft.public.expression.discussion
news://microsoft.public.expression.webdesigner

If Microsoft releases EWD with support for creating the equivalent of
Dreamweaver's "extensions" Adobe can kiss Dreamweaver goodbye for anything
but developing PHP and CFML. Adobe has a lot of work to do. It will be
interesting to see if they choose to capitulate or compete.

<%= Clinton Gallagher
NET csgallagher AT metromilwaukee.com
URL http://www.metromilwaukee.com/clintongallagher/

"RYoung" <no@mail.com> wrote in message
news:e7fdg6$cu6$1@forums.macromedia.com...
> I'd say that any tool/technology has a learning curve, whether one is
> steeper than the other is irrelevant because your knowledge of the tool
> increases in proportion to how much time you spend learning the tool.
>
> That being said, if you use Dreamweaver for ASP.NET development (all
> arguments concerning it's "lack of support for 2.0" aside) then eventually
> you'll master the tool. However, you put it cleanly when you said your
> skillset and the other guy's skillset won't gel.
>
> If you start learning VWD at this moment, then your knowledge of
> ASP.NET/databases is no further along than with where you are in DW.
> Therefore, you have nothing to lose - and alot to gain - by getting VWD,
> SQL Server Express, and the Express Management Studio and diving head
> first into that set of tools for developing .NET applications.
>
> You'll want to take small steps at first, just basic database retrieval
> operations and getting result sets to display in different databound
> controls. Eventually you'll progress to the other CRUD operations with
> databases.
>
> It all takes time, and dedication. Just hang in there and stick with it,
> cause eventually it gets fun.
>
> I can't point you to resources concerning beginning with VWD other than
> asp.net and http://msdn.microsoft.com/vstudio/express/default.aspx
>
> In my opinion, I'd highly recommend using VWD for your ASP.NET
> development.
>
> Ron
>
> "computerkitten" <webforumsuser@macromedia.com> wrote in message
> news:e7f56o$3td$1@forums.macromedia.com...
>> OK for all you experts out there on the server side.....
>>
>> I just finished up an Intermediate Dreamweaver class and we didn't
>> discuss
>> connecting to databases via Dreamweaver.
>>
>> Which is fine and its taught in other classes I am sure. However I was
>> planning to stay on the design side and learn a little bit about the
>> server
>> side.
>>
>> But the issue I have is that someone at my company has designed a website
>> using Visual Website Developer with .Net 2.0 and Microsoft SQL Server
>> Management Studio Express database. I got involved because there is hope
>> of
>> not having our intranet designed in this package but instead Dreamweaver.
>> The
>> developer of the current Intranet is a server side guy and is going over
>> my
>> head when explaining and showing me how to connect to a database using
>> Visual
>> Web Developer.
>>
>> I wanted to learn about that Visual Web Developer product ONLY so I could
>> then
>> try to understand how to connect to a SQL Server Management Studio
>> express
>> database. So can Dreamweaver connect to a database such as this via
>> .NET? Can
>> someone explain in preschool terminology how this all works together and
>> what
>> my options are with Dreamweaver?
>>
>> I am just trying to figure out what to do.... and how to understand all
>> this.
>> I know this developer has gone to a lot of work on the server side
>> working in
>> this environment. So I don't know how our skills are going to "gel"
>> together
>> given I am just the Dreamweaver nerdette.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Angie
>>
>>
>
>

Report · Jun 24, 2006

You can design your templates in DW and the server side guy can do his stuff
in VWD. You don't both need to use the same software. In fact, intranets
should be software independant. Your boss would just want it to work. Also,
don't get too complacent about ASP.NET. It's not easy for beginners. You'll
need a lot of training. How long did it take you to become proficient in DW
and all design? You'll need to allow that same amount of time again to learn
ASP.NET.

--
Jules
http://www.charon.co.uk/charoncart
Charon Cart 3
Shopping Cart Extension for Dreamweaver MX/MX 2004

Report · Jun 26, 2006

Hi Angie,

You asked what kind of ASP. 1.1 stuff can you do purely with DW and what are you loosing by not using ASP 2.0.

I'm not trying to sell my work on this forum - but the best way to show you what it can do is to look at my portfolio - www.allurecreative.com. You will see small and medium sites. Sites we sell for between $3K and $15K.

Before I say what may be a surprise to fans of Visual Studio (of which I am one), let me just quickly mention what 'universe' I am in. It's important to know that when asking for any 'expert' opinions.

I build publicly accessible database driven websites, either using Access database or SQL database. All have content management systems, many have specialty programming to perform unusual or unique functions. My beliefs and experience are limited to this universe.

WHAT'S SO SPECIAL ABOUT DW AND IT'S VERSION OF ASP.NET 1.1 SUPPORT?

This may sound odd to diehards of VS 2005, but what I like most about DW and it's brand of ASP.net support is that I can READILY do ANYTHING I want. I can reach right down at the code level and easily take database data and manipulate it however I feel by whatever method I feel like. I do not feel limited by what the wizards and the prebuilt controls will allow me to do. Because of this freedom I have never met a programming goal I could not accomplish. My successful web business (6 years +) is built on this level of creativity.

With VS 2005, you can also reach down into the code, but microsoft does not go out of their way to make that easy. Instead, the emphasis is on not writing any code using controls like gridview, details view and formview. Don't get me wrong, these are hugely valuable under the conditions for which they were constructed. I use them and use them often. And the fact that the code is written for you is ok, too in my book. But as soon as you want to do something that requires creativity outside the limits of ASP.net controls, VS 2005 does not encourage that at all. For example, it takes a high level of programming ability to take data from separate tables and combine and use that in the code. It can be done, but it's a lot of work, and the learning curve is steep. Not so in DW. learning curve is much easier and once you learn a few fundamentals, there is nothing you can't do.

WHAT DO YOU LOOSE IF YOU WENT 100% DW for ASP.Net development

Again - speaking from within my universe - you can get by without ASP.net 2. But some of the controls are very attractive under certain conditions. mastering the gridview, detailsview and form view are worth the price of admission in my book. I am more efficient with them than without. I would not want to give them up. So while you could get by without them, you are much better off with them.

Large commercial websites probably should go master page (ASP.net 2); medium and smaller sites like the ones I build work quite well programmed using standard ASP.net 1 controls as sort of a psuedo- master/content page system. (Note: most of our sites are developed using context.rewrite method so a couple of physical pages normally handles 90% of the site's needs.)

SO WHAT'S THE ANSWER?

I don't think you should take an either-or approach. You can still use DW and it's 1.1 capabilities where they make sense, then use in the same site ASP.net 2.0 stuff from Visual Studio. That way, you have all the refinements that 10+ years of DW growth have benefited from, and some of the cool new tools of VS 2005/ASP.net.

Rick