OT. How it all started

[osgood_]

Just a nice video if you have 30 mins to kill. Those that have been there, done it, and have been around long enough will relate to it and maybe have been part of it:

Jeffrey Zeldman 20 years of Web Design and Community - YouTube

[Nancy OShea]

That's was really great!. 

If not for Jeffrey and A List Apart, I would have given up on this crazy, mixed-up profession. 

Nancy

[osgood_]

https://forums.adobe.com/people/Nancy+OShea  wrote

That's was really great!. 

If not for Jeffrey and A List Apart, I would have given up on this crazy, mixed-up profession. 

Nancy

Yeah, how times fly........... I must have been doing this longer than I think. I actually don't remember Mosaic browser though but how primitive and crude an environment is was back then to where we are today.

[Nancy OShea]

I remember those days. 

Lynx was much worse -- an early text only browser.  NCSA Mosaic seemed advanced until  Netscape 2 came out.  And then the browsers wars between IE and Netscape began.

Nancy

[osgood_]

https://forums.adobe.com/people/Nancy+OShea  wrote

I remember those days. 

Lynx was much worse -- an early text only browser.  NCSA Mosaic seemed advanced until  Netscape 2 came out.  And then the browsers wars between IE and Netscape began.

Nancy

I really remember things clearly from the time of NN4x onwards (renamed to Netscape Communicator) so around 1997ish, I think. I had been poking around before that time but not very seriously.

[Nancy OShea]

My first modem was a super slow 9600 bps -- like watching grass grow in winter.  Not practical except for getting email.   I didn't bother with the World Wide Web thing until later when I got a faster modem.   

[osgood_]

https://forums.adobe.com/people/Nancy+OShea  wrote

My first modem was a super slow 9600 bps -- like watching grass grow in winter.  Not practical except for getting email.   I didn't bother with the World Wide Web thing until later when I got a faster modem.   

I must have been late to the party, mine was a 28k modem, I think. I had 2 choices of connection - Compuserve or AOL. Not sure what happened to either company, AOL is still doing something, but that landscape has changed beyond recognition as well.

[pziecina]

Do you two mind, you are both making me feel my age.

I watched the video, and realised just how long i have been using the internet, as i go back to the days of terminal emulators and bulletin boards. Using a company computer and a modem that you actually had to place the telephone reciever into a cradel, long before the www was created.

It was mainly used for exchange of ideas, and reading reaserch data, which was the original purpouse, and html was born of the requirement to view and format that info in a more readable way. My original website was to publish reaserch findings, which i removed the following day, as it did not work as i had thought. I'm not even certain if the original 'browser' we used even had a name.

The mosaic browser was i think what made the web become popular, as the ability to insert an image changed everything.

It always makes me laugh when i see people talking about the avarage web users age, and developers being in their  mid 30's. They have forgotton i think that the age of the first web users was 25-55 back then, and we did not stop using and developing for the web just because everyone thought it was something new, and just for the young.

My first use of css for layouts, was in 1998.

[Rob Hecker2]

This is fun.

My first modem attached to a dial phone with suction cups. This allowed me to work from my home in rural Marin for the magazines I worked for in San Francisco. I had to call ahead to let someone in the magazine office know I was going to send some text to them. we would fiddle with the process for almost an hour in order  to magically deliver a 2000 word article over the phone line.

Then I bought a 1200 baud modem, which was cutting edge. It allowed me to connect to University computer networks . Still a few years before the birth of the web. There was some interesting material on the internet, but you had to know some UNIX commands to access it. It was fascinating that there was anything online.

I built my first website when the publisher I worked for paid a lot of money to have a website built, and got completely burned. I said I thought I could do it with Frontpage, this cool new software from Microsoft.

[pziecina]

https://forums.adobe.com/people/Rob+Hecker2  wrote

This is fun.

My first modem attached to a dial phone with suction cups. This allowed me to work from my home in rural Marin for the magazines I worked for in San Francisco. I had to call ahead to let someone in the magazine office know I was going to send some text to them. we would fiddle with the process for almost an hour in order  to magically deliver a 2000 word article over the phone line.

Glad to know it was not just me that had problems getting that set up to work.

I would say, "the good old days", LOL

[Rob Hecker2]

I would say, "the good old days", LOL

Right. There are no good old days. For instance the 60's were sex drugs and rock and roll only on a good day. Mostly it was bad TV, oppressive  schools, social injustice and very little access to information. It's all better now.

It was exciting to be in the middle of the tech revolution in the later 20th C, but it's so much better now that the tech has matured.

[BenPleysier]

My first modem running at 1200 bps attached to a Zenith Z80 micro computer with C/PM operating system using, I think it was, Gopher and Terminal and a few other programs, allowed me to access the local university and the wider network (Arpanet) from home.

Brings back memories.

Edit:

Come to think of it, I think I started using Gopher when I purchased my first IBM compatible in the early 90's. There were also a few other protocols, but I cannot remember what they were.

[Nancy OShea]

pziecina  wrote

My first use of css for layouts, was in 1998.

I didn't go all out with CSS until about 2005 when I got DW8 (aka CS22.3).  I had immersed myself in Jeffrey Zeldman, Eric Meyer and others so I was feeling pretty sure of myself.   Gosh, I was so green.

Nancy

[osgood_]

pziecina  wrote

Do you two mind, you are both making me feel my age.

Yeah, I just thought I'd put it out there for us oldies.....a trip down memory lane.

[pziecina]

Just a thought, and anyone feeling insulted by this, tough.

I wonder how many people calling themselves web designers, developers or whatever now. Would even consider building a web site if they had to go back to the 'good old days', (they were not Rob, that comment was my attempt at sarcasm).

[osgood_]

pziecina  wrote

Just a thought, and anyone feeling insulted by this, tough.

I wonder how many people calling themselves web designers, developers or whatever now. Would even consider building a web site if they had to go back to the 'good old days', (they were not Rob, that comment was my attempt at sarcasm).

No, it's called progress. In twenty years time when developers look back at what we are doing now they will probably have a wry smile of their face.

I was more affected by Jeffery himself who seems to have handed over the baton on the whole to the younger generation (whilst watching over them and offering words of wisdom and encouragement built on experience). I align myself more to that, it just too darn exhausting to keep up with the ever evolving landscape.

What I do now is incomparable to what I used to do. If you are in web design for any length of time you will have to reinvent yourself every 4/5 years as opposed to most other careers where you could do it for a lifetime and it never changes, graphic design for instance. Quark and InDesign still only do what they did 20 years ago, nothing has changed.

[Rob Hecker2]

. . .Would even consider building a web site if they had to go back to the 'good old days'

Right. Actually, I hated it back in the good ol days and have only enjoyed web work in the past few years. I was coming from print design, where we could do anything--the images looked beautiful and the typography was luscious. The web was ugly, even after CSS came along. In fact CSS added huge frustrations due to lack of browser consistency.

Who can stand working with HTML email layouts today?

[osgood_]

https://forums.adobe.com/people/Rob+Hecker2  wrote

. . .Would even consider building a web site if they had to go back to the 'good old days'

Who can stand working with HTML email layouts today?

I wouldn't mind. I kind of find them more challenging and a bit 'specialist' which sets one aside from the crowd if you can apply yourself. I know it's not everyone cup-of-tea, infact very few but I've always gravitated to the work which no-one else wants to do as I can name my price.

I know you hate updating websites but for me it's my bread and butter money and pays quite well when I do get to do it, so I dont really mind but I agree its quite a tedious chore but as I said I like to give myself a hard time to see if I can come out at the other end, madness maybe.

Not everyone wants to get involved in php like yourself as they find it rather 'understated' not me though I like that too, again I like the challenge. Me against it.

[osgood_]

https://forums.adobe.com/people/Rob+Hecker2  wrote

. . .Would even consider building a web site if they had to go back to the 'good old days'

I was coming from print design, where we could do anything--the images looked beautiful and the typography was luscious.

Me too but now I view print design as largely unskilled work. It doesnt do anything but look pretty. Even to fill in an enclosed form I would need to find a biro, envelope, a stamp, put my hat and coat on and go to the nearest post box then wait 2 days for it to get delivered and 3 more for a reply possibly..............how backwards is that. Once that tour has departed the information is toast, I have no way of geting rid of it from the brochure and replacing it with something else, you get to  a point where 75%, maybe more or the content in a brochure, is only good for chip paper, not so with a website.

[Rob Hecker2]

I really like working with PHP/SQL, but my initial reason for switching from design to code was because there was a lot of competition in web design, and my client base at the time (small businesses) were often opting for WordPress. Writing code seemed like a way to break from the herd.

Currently though, I'm feeling more competition again. My potential clients have other options from larger companies that deliver a less expensive product. And the range of new tools and technologies for coding has gotten crazy overwhelming.

[pziecina]

https://forums.adobe.com/people/Rob+Hecker2  wrote

Currently though, I'm feeling more competition again. My potential clients have other options from larger companies that deliver a less expensive product. And the range of new tools and technologies for coding has gotten crazy overwhelming.

A common complaint now, with no known answer.

The question is, do we call 'bespoke' solutions a day, and join the 'run-of-the-mill' crowd, or not?

[Rob Hecker2]

The question is, do we call 'bespoke' solutions a day, and join the 'run-of-the-mill' crowd, or not?

I guess our customers will answer that question for us. I think I'm losing more work now because the clients view the work as expensive. Someone will tell them that a WordPress plug-in that does the same thing costs a fraction of the cost.

[pziecina]

I guess our customers will answer that question for us. I think I'm losing more work now because the clients view the work as expensive. Someone will tell them that a WordPress plug-in that does the same thing costs a fraction of the cost.

When I decided to drop private work, I thought I was taking a risk. The more I read and talk to developers though, the more I realize that it was a good decision in the end.

Now I get the chance to decide on what features to use and when to implement them, with only the end user passing the final judgement. My problem is that the tools do not keep up with what I require anymore, and hand-coding is often the only way I can test a new feature. It also help that cms's, even drupal would require so much work to be made usable to replace in our current system, that cost wise it would not be worth it for the clients.

Going modular in the construction, was the best decision we ever made, as no 'off-the-shelf' cms can match the ease of adding specialized features and modules.

[Rob Hecker2]

Going modular in the construction, was the best decision we ever made,  as no 'off-the-shelf' cms can match the ease of adding specialized  features and modules.

Interesting. My system is also modular. I can turn features on and off, depending on what the client has paid for. The client can also put their menu at the bottom of the page and their footer at the top, if they so wished.

The real problem is perception. There is a perception that complex features should cost less. They know that the Wordpress plug-in alternatives are not in the same league, but when the WP option costs $39, it makes it harder for them to be willing to spend $800 for something similar.

[osgood_]

https://forums.adobe.com/people/Rob+Hecker2  wrote

Going modular in the construction, was the best decision we ever made,  as no 'off-the-shelf' cms can match the ease of adding specialized  features and modules.

I agree and I know of a couple of companies in the sector that I work for that offer these specialist modular solutions that a CMS like Wordpress, Drupy couldn't. I can't compete as I dont have the skill to produce or implement such modules but I basically get some of the clients who cant afford to use their system which is hugley expensive and those client that do use it I'm not sure that some really need it. By the way the front end is crap out or the box but I guess that dont matter if the backend is providing you with the facilities you want and need.