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OT: When is a client no longer a client?

LEGEND ,
May 11, 2022 May 11, 2022

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I'm rapidly approaching the end of my tenature as a web-developer but I still have several clients, managing their websites, updates mainly, a few times a year. However I also have several 'dormant' websites where not much gets updated from year to year. These particaulary clients are becoming a PITA (although I have known most of them for 10 or more years). When they do contact me they talk as if they are spending 1000's of pounds with me, are pretty arrogant, rather insulting and annoying. 

 

At what point is the financial return considered to be so small that it's ok to politely wave them goodbye? I dont really want to upset them but they are really at a point where I consider they are of no use to me any longer. I wont be re-designing their websites in the future as I have no desire to do so. 

 

Does anyone have a minimum financial limit they set per client per year before it becomes a case of 'on ya bike' this is just not worth the bother?

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Community Expert ,
May 11, 2022 May 11, 2022

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I don't know what your financial arrangement is.  IMO you don't have to take ANY projects you don't want to take.  This goes for everyone regardless of age.  It's your prerogative to take their calls or not.  It's different when you're starting out and trying to grow your business through word of mouth but that changes over time. 

 

If you want to go the extra distance, you could send them a nice letter explaining that your priorities have changed  and you're not able to service them anymore.  If you're really nice, you could refer them to another service or colleague they can contact.  But that's up to you.  That's why we are freelancers. 

 

 

Nancy O'Shea— Product User, Community Expert & Moderator

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LEGEND ,
May 11, 2022 May 11, 2022

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I don't know what your financial arrangement is.  IMO you don't have to take ANY projects you don't want to take.  This goes for everyone regardless of age.  It's your prerogative to take their calls or not.  It's different when you're starting out and trying to grow your business through word of mouth but that changes over time. 

 

If you want to go the extra distance, you could send them a nice letter explaining that your priorities have changed  and you're not able to service them anymore.  If you're really nice, you could refer them to another service or colleague they can contact.  But that's up to you.  That's why we are freelancers. 

 

 


By @Nancy OShea

 

Yes of course you are correct. I was just trying to get a feel how others run their business financially. I have a policy of if I wasn't making 1k+ a year out of each client then it wasnt worth my time. The majority of the 'dormant' websites I mention don't get any where near that so I'm asking myself why keep them going just for the benefit of the client and not myself. I'm just being nice! Of course until recently there was the prospect of greater returns should the websites need re-designing but that's no longer applicable as I've decided not to go down that route. 

 

I've never really recommended other developers simply because if they dont deliver then it looks bad on me and I like to keep my good reputation intact.

 

 

 

 

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Community Expert ,
May 11, 2022 May 11, 2022

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Do you provide hosting & SSL certs as part of your service?  I don't.  Who handles the domain names?  My clients are responsible for their own domain names. At project completion, there are no strings attached on either side.  If they need upgrades later and I'm available, I'll happily do it but they need to pay me.  My hourly rates are not cheap. 

 

Unless clients have a thriving business attached to their site, most of them lose interest after 1-3 years.  The web is full of idle websites that just take up space.  Perhaps that's why SSL certs have to be renewed annually even when they are paid up 2-5 years ahead.  

 

Nancy O'Shea— Product User, Community Expert & Moderator

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LEGEND ,
May 11, 2022 May 11, 2022

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@Nancy OShea wrote:

Do you provide hosting & SSL certs as part of your service?  I don't.  Who handles the domain names?  My clients are responsible for their own domain names. At project completion, there are no strings attached on either side.  If they need upgrades later and I'm available, I'll happily do it but they need to pay me.  My hourly rates are not cheap. 

 

Unless clients have a thriving business attached to their site, most of them lose interest after 1-3 years.  The web is full of idle websites that just take up space.  Perhaps that's why SSL certs have to be renewed annually even when they are paid up 2-5 years ahead.  

 


 
For the majority no l don't provide the hosting or domain name renewal and those that use SSL certificates use free ones.
 
For the few where l do manage the hosting and domain name annual renewal there's no real financial return in that part of the process, l just provide it as part of the more lucrative updates, which happen 2 or 3 times a year.
 
I think you're correct in terms of some clients losing interest after a very short period of time and lm talking months not years in some cases. Apart from the initial financial rewards for building the website there is nothing in it long term. I like clients who update on a regular bases as there is then an incentive to maintain a close interest their website.
 
I think lm just going to have to be more positive with those that only use me on the odd occasion and set a minimum charge of £100 for even the smallest update. It then becomes a problem for them and not me. If they go away problem solved and l don't have to make the decision myself to end my association with them.
 

 

 

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Community Expert ,
May 11, 2022 May 11, 2022

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I have my client's webistess hosted on a server that I have leased. I also am the registrar of their domain names. I charge my clients $AU250 per year to manage their sites, mail boxes, DNS settings and SSL. Their .au domain name registration is charged at $27.50 a year, something that would pay $33 per year elsewhere. That way they think that they are getting a bargain.

 

3x $250 paying customers cover my cost of hosting, the rest is pure profit. Small changes taking less than 5-10 minutes are free of charge.

 

If they want, they can have their own Plesk panel with no extra charge.

BenPleysier_0-1652317439231.png

 

 

Wappler, the only real Dreamweaver alternative.

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LEGEND ,
May 11, 2022 May 11, 2022

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I have my client's webistess hosted on a server that I have leased. I also am the registrar of their domain names. I charge my clients $AU250 per year to manage their sites, mail boxes, DNS settings and SSL. Their .au domain name registration is charged at $27.50 a year, something that would pay $33 per year elsewhere. That way they think that they are getting a bargain.

 

3x $250 paying customers cover my cost of hosting, the rest is pure profit. Small changes taking less than 5-10 minutes are free of charge.

 

If they want, they can have their own Plesk panel with no extra charge.

BenPleysier_0-1652317439231.png

 

 


By @BenPleysier

 

It's a plan and if it works for you then that's great but lm not that interested in making a few bucks a year as l move towards wrapping up my career and after. 

 

I've reached a point where l personally don't see this as a viable thing going forward, apart from filling my time. After 47 years do l really want to keep smacking my head against the wall. You know how draining it can be these days keeping up to date with all the new workflows, the constant debates of which is right or wrong or neither and if you don't participate and make it your business to at least investigate, youre really just history and of little importance.

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Community Expert ,
May 12, 2022 May 12, 2022

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The question of the economic model is in my opinion a concept specific to each activity... in any case, any service requires a corresponding charge.


Whether a project is dormant or not, and whether it costs you in terms of hosting, this charge must be valued at the one who consumes it.

The idea then is not to generate a surplus value, but to find a balance on the table of income / expenses.

 

Having a minimum billing delta can quickly fall into a concept that drives consumption.
Like Ben we offer shared services that allow everyone to gain an unbeatable price/quality ratio. No one is forced to consume more than they need, while keeping the most efficient service slider they can.

 

As you say OS, it may be easier to pass on your files to potential buyers, and free you from charges that pose more questions than they bring you solutions.

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LEGEND ,
May 12, 2022 May 12, 2022

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Having a minimum billing delta can quickly fall into a concept that drives consumption.

 

As you say OS, it may be easier to pass on your files to potential buyers, and free you from charges that pose more questions than they bring you solutions.


By @B i r n o

Minimum seems to work well for other industries here in the UK like freelance plumbers and electricians. A lot work on the basis of minimum per hour or part of per hour so if they resolve the problem in 10 minutes the price is the same as if they spent an hour resolving it.

The problem with web development particularly at the lowered end of the market is a lot of clients don't see their website as critical to their operation so look upon it as a luxury rather than an essential hence they don't really have much respect for the skills and knowledge involved. These are the clients that will inform you their young niece or nephew design websites or say Wix is a cheaper option. Whilst they would pay an electrician 100 pounds for 10 mins work to fix a light bulb they most likely would not see the same value in a web developer to fix their image gallery.

Its become relevant these days to the calibre of clients you work for. In the past you could make reasonable money from just about any client as there were very little cheaper options available for them to source. Web development was a skill at any level but that's all changed given the out pouring of many more solutions. Now you need to work for high end clients and most of those tap into high end agencies. Freelancing as a one man or woman operation, unless you align yourself with larger associations is probably dead in the water.

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LEGEND ,
May 12, 2022 May 12, 2022

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Smaller clients tend to be the less profitable (Obvisly).

- They tend to be the ones who do not want to pay for things they want on the site or want to pay less for what the feature/functionality is and should be worth

- They are the ones who want more support and also not pay for that support

- They tend to be the ones less tech savvy and create more problems/issues and break things due to that lack of understanding yet want to be "do it myself" and not look to have you/your company do things for them or pay someone else to do it.

- With that lack of understanding they do not understand why something may take x amount of time and money to build or create and argue that

- They are less happy, want more for less all the time.

While these are not nice things to think about they are 100% the case.
20 small cients vs 2 big ones (which in this example has more work load) your better off with the two bigger clients.
Bigger clients have bigger budgets for sure but while there are other challenges (Things like more meetings than you should have, more roadblocks or more hoops to jump through sometimes, multiple people you got to deal with on any given project..) they tend to be less hassle overall, easier to support and have a better understanding of what they want and what it takes to get there.

You also need to know enough is enough, Even if your friendly they are friendly and really nice and you have supported them for 4 years. If they are costing you money or taking up your resources with 2 developers on things because they are cosntantly calling, breaking things or wanting things (and not want to pay for it) you need to know when to sack those clients (If you can).

As with big companies, even if your a smaller business or even a freelancer you need to consider resources to the same or greater extent the finacial side.

If a client is paying your hourly rate or you have a monthly plan with them of x hours and your on that.. If your team or yourself is spending good portions of time on that one client and could have done 3/4... other clients work in that time then this is another key consideration. If 1 client takes your time and you could loose or have 5 clients not happy with work delays due to resources being limited - Then you also need to consider having that client. If those other clients are bigger you need to continue to impress to get bigger jobs and work and good word from that company and the companies they work with.
If Jane and John's lock smithing business is paying you for everything but taking 40 hours a month of your teams time and 3-4 staff members across different departments who could have done 4 other clients jobs in that time whom may be bigger - You got to consider letting Jane and John go.

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LEGEND ,
May 12, 2022 May 12, 2022

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quoteBigger clients have bigger budgets for sure but while there are other challenges (Things like more meetings than you should have, more roadblocks or more hoops to jump through sometimes, multiple people you got to deal with on any given project..) they tend to be less hassle overall, easier to support and have a better understanding of what they want and what it takes to get there.


By @Liam Dilley

 

Absolutely correct. I've worked for  a few large clients, some worldwide and the process, while sometimes pain staking, given the departments involved, the process is much more professional and usually more financially rewarding. They employee profesionally trained/experienced employees which helps the workflow process. They have realistic budgets.

 

I've also worked for the small to medium sized companies who are family based (alert!, alert!), most of which have no members of staff that have any experience in public relations/marketing. These companies can be frustrating to work for because generally they have no concept of what they really want, do not supply the information which helps get the job done, have limited budgets and almost never respect the skills and knowledge which you have.

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Community Expert ,
May 13, 2022 May 13, 2022

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by reading these last exchanges, I have the impression to have passed in the twilights zone... certainly they are obvious and have no age... and which fully reflect the market of the great consumption, but certainly not the real life.


the question is not, and cannot be, about the size of the customers, but about the size of the companies.


today, the size of the companies defines everything... the thirty glorious years of the web are over... we must put our feet on the ground.


let's take out the niche markets, let's take out the ancestral markets that have united links... let's take the market as it is today.


there are a lot of free platforms, or inexpensive premium accounts... look at the templates... today a very good responsive template, with online support and all that is needed to secure its sustainability, costs between 60 and 100 dollars... complete platforms are almost free access... going premium costs almost nothing... institutional platforms give access to application sites, my city hall dot com, my company dot fr, my services for you dot info... in short, the market is large, open and competitive for all the small companies...

 

what is left for these small companies... uh... big customers...???... you're kidding... if you are not a big company, it's hard to get credibility, and to be able to respond to markets that are too big to be followed by small ones... and to have mono-clientism, it's too risky... especially in these days.... so for small companies there are only... small customers left... 🙂


to make a small company grow... that's another business, and the problem is that today, we are not yesterday, and there are many, many people on the market.


It's been a few years since we entered the small grocery store era, when the big distribution relocated the shopping malls in busy cities, and took over the mass food market.

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LEGEND ,
May 13, 2022 May 13, 2022

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I think a lot of small companies could still be doing more to enhance the experience for their website users. For example a lot of the websites l manage still have no facilities for their users to purchase online, search the website, compile favourites etc, etc

 

The problem is NOT that they are small but small minded. They think nothing of purchasing a high end 48 seater coach yet it runs half full most of the year because they aren't allocating a budget to promote their products online or making it exciting, simple for their website users to get access to those products.

 

 

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Community Expert ,
May 13, 2022 May 13, 2022

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I don't do vanity / information / hobby / family sites.  Those don't interest me.  Besides there are plenty of DIY platforms that cater to that kind of user.  They don't need me.

 

To hold my interest, the site has to DO something.  Otherwise it's a waste of space, time & money. 

 

Nancy O'Shea— Product User, Community Expert & Moderator

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LEGEND ,
May 13, 2022 May 13, 2022

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To hold my interest, the site has to DO something.  Otherwise it's a waste of space, time & money. 

 

By @Nancy OShea

 

I think even some mid-sized companies don't do enough. Most of the clients I worked for in my time were turning over a few million a year but its always been the same - allocating a budget to promote their products always comes low on the list. I don't know why, they think it's a luxury when it's a key factor. They would'nt dream of using a horse and cart to take their passengers on holiday yet they are happy to use the likes of Wix, Weebly etc 

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Community Expert ,
May 13, 2022 May 13, 2022

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Most small businesses really suck at marketing.  A healthy advertising budget is important to growth and long term value but it must be coordinated with successful ads to minimize customer acquisition costs. 

 

Over-zealous marketers who drive up sales with higher CACs aren't doing the business any favors.

 

Nancy O'Shea— Product User, Community Expert & Moderator

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