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complaint driven development

Adobe Community Professional ,
Sep 28, 2018

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On a lost Saturday morning, awaiting my team's participation in the grand final, I came across this article Complaint-Driven Development

The reason I am sharing this with you is because I have been involved in a successful program that has echoed the exact same procedure mentioned in the article. Maybe Adobe, specifically the Dreamweaver team, could learn from it.


Ben

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complaint driven development

Adobe Community Professional ,
Sep 28, 2018

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On a lost Saturday morning, awaiting my team's participation in the grand final, I came across this article Complaint-Driven Development

The reason I am sharing this with you is because I have been involved in a successful program that has echoed the exact same procedure mentioned in the article. Maybe Adobe, specifically the Dreamweaver team, could learn from it.


Ben

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Sep 28, 2018 1
LEGEND ,
Sep 29, 2018

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BenPleysier  wrote

On a lost Saturday morning, awaiting my team's participation in the grand final, I came across this article Complaint-Driven Development

The reason I am sharing this with you is because I have been involved in a successful program that has echoed the exact same procedure mentioned in the article. Maybe Adobe, specifically the Dreamweaver team, could learn from it.

Thank you for posting this Ben, though I would call such development 'end user engagement'.

I have worked using 'end user engagment' since 2002, and I suspect you are refering to Wappler for your involvment with such a process. One could call the pre-release and cab programs 'end user engagement' but when the feedback is only one way it is called 'ignorance' on the part of those not engaging.

As you know I gave up all involvment with Adobe, (except in this forum) at the beginning of this year, simply because I could not support Adobes policys, (not just what acp's can do, but with regards to web developers). It is no good supporting Adobe or Dw when it is obvious that both are not up to or interested in the task of web developments requirerments. When Dw's driving force is aimed at casual users, and beginners, (or newsletter creation) professionals are forgotten.

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Sep 29, 2018 3
LEGEND ,
Sep 29, 2018

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When a company becomes too big they stop listening and start only concentrating on profit to feed the greedy CEOs/shareholders pockets. They think they are always right....how can they not be........thats why they became big.

As much as l think the program you sre talking about is poor in terms of professional web development workflows l cant deny the team behind it are bending over backwards to listen to its users so l tip my hat to them on that front.............but will it last or is this just a show of concern for a new product which needs new users, only time will tell.

On a lighter note has no one on the forum at this program you speak of heard of srcset.....why is that bloke trying to serve different images for different devices using js  embedded in the html code...........thats why these automated programs breed poor website builders

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Sep 29, 2018 1
Adobe Community Professional ,
Sep 29, 2018

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osgood_  wrote

On a lighter note has no one on the forum at this program you speak of heard of srcset.....why is that bloke trying to serve different images for different devices using js  embedded in the html code...........thats why these automated programs breed poor website builders

Not the fault of the program or the Team. Have a look at https://www.dmxzone.com/go/22374/better-responsive-images-with-the-picture-element/ and


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Sep 29, 2018 0
LEGEND ,
Sep 29, 2018

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Ben, never said it was. Its a pretty decent bit of kit aimed at a small niche market.......was just pointing out the niche market seems to lack basic front end coding knowledge to not know srcset exists. If you dont have that basic knowledge you end up doing daft things like that bloke has done despite there being a better solution in the product itself.....just surprised youre not jumping in an letting these people know.......you seem particularly quite in terms of participation so lm not convinced even you are 100% converted

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Sep 29, 2018 0
Mentor ,
Sep 29, 2018

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BenPleysier  wrote

Not the fault of the program or the Team. Have a look at https://www.dmxzone.com/go/22374/better-responsive-images-with-the-picture-element/ and

It does not seem consistent across the various entry points however:

image properties.png

It also appears excluded in the docs from what I can see:

https://wappler.io/docs/#Responsive-Images

Its odd the actual developer did not mention it alternatively in this thread as well:

https://community.wappler.io/t/this-is-how-you-could-swap-out-images-based-on-browser-viewport-width...

osgood_  wrote

I cant deny the team behind it are bending over backwards to listen to its users

I agree they really seem to be seeking and listening to feedback.

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Sep 29, 2018 0
LEGEND ,
Sep 29, 2018

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Let's not get into asking Ben why Wappler does not promote srcset, (or picture element) as I think that just like Dw, Wappler has primarily none developers as part of its supporters, and speaking from experiance Dw has about 4 web developers as part of its 'advisory' team, and one member I know of, does not know how to write a link in html, so srcset or anything else is 'magic', and way beyond such peoples knowledge.

Even if you try to talk about srcset in the Ps forum you will find that very few will support its use, and insist that using js for hi-dpi image replacment is just as good, (even when the js solution downloads the std image first). They will even still insist that ppi is irrelevant for the web, as everything is 72ppi and nothing else matters, (the iPhone X, is about 360ppi).

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Sep 29, 2018 0
LEGEND ,
Sep 29, 2018

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Unfortunately l have to be crital of the drag and drop, click and appear approach, no code knowledge necessary mantra, you end up with poor coding through lack of basic knowledge, period........you cant really call yourself a web developer, more of an imposter. From what l can judge its has-beens and no hopers  that use such a workflow and my mind has not been changed by anything of what l have read in that forum.

As far as lm aware using js downloads ALL the images to the browser but just shows the appropriate image at the specific width whereas srcset only downloads the most appropriate image?

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Sep 29, 2018 0
LEGEND ,
Sep 29, 2018

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osgood_  wrote

Unfortunately l have to be crital of the drag and drop, click and appear approach, no code knowledge necessary mantra, you end up with poor coding through lack of basic knowledge, period........you cant really call yourself a web developer, more of an imposter.

most of us agree with that, but until small buisness clients spend as much time evaluating the worth of so called developers and what they produce, as they do on choosing their next company car, (thats auto, for those speaking pigeon english ) and its specifications, the situation will not change.

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Sep 29, 2018 0
LEGEND ,
Sep 29, 2018

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osgood_  wrote

As far as lm aware using js downloads ALL the images to the browser but just shows the appropriate image at the specific width whereas srcset only downloads the most appropriate image?

srcset does more than downloading just the appropriate image, it can just download a pre-set image depending on a number of factors, (width, ppi, artistic directions, connection speed, % value of size, etc, etc). The main problem with its use, is and always will be the developers time taken to produce the images, and deciding how best to use them.

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Sep 29, 2018 1
LEGEND ,
Sep 29, 2018

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Yeah, its a mess admittedly as these automated workflows have sullied the profession badly. They have allowed any old Tom, Dick and Harry to flip out something cheaply, you cant really blame the client as they probably think they are getting a good solution, in the case of Wappler a transportable one. If a pro web developer gets that 'unique' code which l am seeing in a lot of the early websites produced with it then they are almost certainly looking at a redevelopment...........who cares, not the imposter or the developers of such product, its corrupt.

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Sep 29, 2018 0
LEGEND ,
Sep 29, 2018

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Well yes that is the downside to srcset, the additional images which need to be created, again if you are doing this correctly each will need to be uniquely sized and cropped for each device width you want to cater for.........time consuming so thats probably the main reason why you see so many poorly designed websites on tablet and mobile at the cheaper end of the spectrum.

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Sep 29, 2018 0
LEGEND ,
Sep 29, 2018

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osgood_  wrote

Well yes that is the downside to srcset, the additional images which need to be created, again if you are doing this correctly each will need to be uniquely sized and cropped for each device width you want to cater for.........time consuming so thats probably the main reason why you see so many poorly designed websites on tablet and mobile at the cheaper end of the spectrum.

Which takes us right back to Bens original post.

Over 50% of web usage is now tablet and mobile, yet no matter how a site is developed, (or designed) images are still primarily created for desktops, then simply enlarged to 1x, 2x or whatever. Until web development programs and web asset creation programs, stop trying to force developers into creating sites and there assets as though it was still 1999, everything they do will never match what is required for the modern web.

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Sep 29, 2018 0
LEGEND ,
Sep 29, 2018

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I dont think there is ever going to be a 100% solution to this issue unless developer and client alike spent extra time to create the required sized  images as no automated process can or will ever be able to do this. My clients complain because l tell them images cant be uploaded unless they are a specific dimension, that way the website maintains a professional appearance. Sure l can resize them to either a specific width or even height after upload but you end up with mis-match of different heights or different widths, not always desirable particularly in the case of gallery images and pages where consistent design and layout is necessary.

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Sep 29, 2018 0
Adobe Community Professional ,
Sep 29, 2018

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W_J_T  wrote

Its odd the actual developer did not mention it alternatively in this thread as well:

https://community.wappler.io/t/this-is-how-you-could-swap-out-images-based-on-browser-view port-widt...

A long time ago I invested in so-called IT-glasses. They have contributed to lowering the number of senior moments that I experience each day and enabled me to see the following mentioned In the article.

I initially tried the built in srcset attributes however when looking through what images were loading in the developer tools network pane i could see that once the browser had the largest version of my image then it no longer felt the need to load the same image in smaller sizes, which I suppose would under normal circumstances be very clever indeed, however in my circumstances my various image sizes all have different aspect ratios so a mobile device would almost receive a 1:1 image while a tablet would get a 4:3 a desktop or larger gets a 16:9.


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Sep 29, 2018 0
Mentor ,
Sep 29, 2018

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BenPleysier  wrote

A long time ago I invested in so-called IT-glasses. They have contributed to lowering the number of senior moments that I experience each day and enabled me to see the following mentioned In the article.

I initially tried the built in srcset attributes

Funny Ben. However if you re-adjust those fancy glasses you may notice I actually said this ...

W_J_T  wrote

Its odd the actual developer did not mention it

Referring to the actual developer of the app itself whom commented also in that thread. They actually responded and concurred with the OP that the proposed method was the best way, actually stating "I think you already have found the best way to do this!". Which perhaps is why as demonstrated in the above link under responsive images found in their documentation, it mentions nothing about srcset either by the actual developer.

What brand of those fancy IT-glasses did you buy?

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Sep 29, 2018 0
LEGEND ,
Sep 30, 2018

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BenPleysier  wrote

... however in my circumstances my various image sizes all have different aspect ratios so a mobile device would almost receive a 1:1 image while a tablet would get a 4:3 a desktop or larger gets a 16:9.

srcset can cater for all the issues mentioned in that article, simply by using the 'media-query' attributes that are part of the srcset specification.

I think the complexity of what one can do/include as part of the srcset element, is contributing to the lack of understanding its use, or the possibilities of what a developer can set as conditions for an image to be downloaded as part of the final rendering of the page. The possibilities of the srcset media-query are almost as complicated as the css media-querys attributes, and lets be honest, the majority of developers never go beyond the standard 3 media-queries in css, (desktop, tablet, smartphone and then only in pixel widths).

I don't think the situation with media-queries, (both srcset and css) will change much, or at least not until larger displays become the norm. Once one starts to test on 4k desktop or large screen tv's, then the limitations of 1x, 2x, etc images becomes apparent, but just like the initial requirements of mobile devices caused developers and the programs they used to completely rethink how web pages were built, developers will ignore larger hi-res displays until they have no other choice but to cater for them, or risk loosing clients, (it starts to cost them money, not to do so).

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Sep 30, 2018 1
Adobe Community Professional ,
Sep 30, 2018

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What brand of those fancy IT-glasses did you buy?

Eschenbach 80 56018 145, I highly recommend them.

Back on track, I also did not mention 'srcset' because the OP had mentioned it and we tend to give each other free rein on the other forum. Maybe a model worth following.


Ben

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Sep 30, 2018 0
Mentor ,
Sep 30, 2018

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BenPleysier  wrote

Back on track, I also did not mention 'srcset' because the OP had mentioned it and we tend to give each other free rein on the other forum. Maybe a model worth following.

But shouldn’t the edification of the topic be welcome, when others can expand a topic towards better approaches and methods. It seems like that in the end would be the greatest benefit to the community and the OP. Is it helping to allow others to remain in the dark if they are unaware of better approaches and methods or how to properly implement them?

But yes back on topic. As it pertains to Dreamweaver, Adobe has an ever increasing void to fill, the silence is deafening.

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Sep 30, 2018 1
LEGEND ,
Sep 30, 2018

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W_J_T  wrote

But yes back on topic. As it pertains to Dreamweaver, Adobe has an ever increasing void to fill, the silence is deafening.

Adobe and the Dw decision makers are NOT producing websites or browser based applications for a living, and the majority of 'advisors' also do not. This means that they are completely oblivious as to what is required, and as most of the Dw application is made up of open source projects, nothing will be included unless a volunteer submits a feature or solution as part of the relevant open source project, (not Dw, it is now out of their hands).

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Sep 30, 2018 1
LEGEND ,
Sep 30, 2018

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W_J_T  wrote

BenPleysier   wrote

Back on track, I also did not mention 'srcset' because the OP had mentioned it and we tend to give each other free rein on the other forum. Maybe a model worth following.

But shouldn’t the edification of the topic be welcome, when others can expand a topic towards better approaches and methods. It seems like that in the end would be the greatest benefit to the community and the OP. Is it helping to allow others to remain in the dark if they are unaware of better approaches and methods or how to properly implement them?

But yes back on topic. As it pertains to Dreamweaver, Adobe has an ever increasing void to fill, the silence is deafening.

As I said, automation breeds ignorance. Even if the poster thinks or thought the way they are doing it is preferable to srcset its advisable to put the solution in a function NOT within the HTML itself ........all good front-end fameworks like Angular, React, Vue etc will advise/teach that is the workflow to follow otherwise you end uo with a page of spagetthi.......great if youre never going to manage the code but sometime, somehow, some place some other developer is going to be dumped on.

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Sep 30, 2018 0
Mentor ,
Oct 02, 2018

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osgood_  wrote

automation breeds ignorance.

True it certainly can, and perhaps promotes it for many.

However it still remains a choice if a person decides to forgo actually learning and instead relies solely on automation. Automation tools like any others need to keep pace with industry changes and standards to remain relevant and useful. Sadly many do not, leaving their users in the dark whom rely solely on automation and blindly the direction and guidance of the tools being produced.

It could likewise be said that progress generally breeds some level of abhorrence from groups as things move forward via automation and potentially marginalizes their place.

There is no argument that learning and knowing actual markup and scripting goes the full distance concerning web development. While automated approaches generally reach their endpoint concerning abilities and features. Most automated approaches reach that endpoint rather quickly for most users. So the apps quickly fall behind, or additional third party developers begin filling the endless gap of requested automated features users continually need provided for them.

If a person fully knows how to leverage markup and scripting while remaining current with learning, industry standards, etc., then methods of automation can still be leveraged and supplemented for the purpose of efficiency in various areas of workflows. But that too is a choice.

----

So back on the topic of, ‘complaint driven development” -- Dreamweaver therefore has plenty of materials to work with if they are listening to the complaints, suggestions of its users and the industry. Seemingly they are not however so the complaints and falling backwards in the industry continue to compound themselves for Adobe. Much like people who are constantly chasing tools and forgoing learning core principles instead.

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Oct 02, 2018 0
LEGEND ,
Oct 02, 2018

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Automation is not the problem, every industry automates at least some part of a products development and manufacture, unless of course we go back to 'cottage industry' products, and even then most use some type of 'helper' tools that are automated.

The problem is that unlike recognised professions, where it is necessary to learn the basic principles, and the what, why and how, before learning the automated procedures, web design and development has no such requirements, and anyone can use the titles, and offer their services without knowing anything.

Dw also compounds the problem by not knowing the requirements, and suffers from the unknowing advising about the unknown.

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Oct 02, 2018 0
Mentor ,
Oct 02, 2018

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pziecina  wrote

The problem is that unlike recognised professions, where it is necessary to learn the basic principles, and the what, why and how, before learning the automated procedures, web design and development has no such requirements, and anyone can use the titles, and offer their services without knowing anything.

True that.

The onramps of the information superhighway have less restrictions than ever before, it seems as though there is no going back.

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Oct 02, 2018 0
LEGEND ,
Oct 03, 2018

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pziecina  wrote

Automation is not the problem, every industry automates at least some part of a products development and manufacture, unless of course we go back to 'cottage industry' products, and even then most use some type of 'helper' tools that are automated.

The problem is that unlike recognised professions, where it is necessary to learn the basic principles, and the what, why and how, before learning the automated procedures, web design and development has no such requirements, and anyone can use the titles, and offer their services without knowing anything.

Dw also compounds the problem by not knowing the requirements, and suffers from the unknowing advising about the unknown.

Its the ole if you cant beat them join them syndrome mentality......................sadly the whole ****** world is a sick place.........spin out a few bags of dung for a few sheckles you can manage to lay your hands on.

ROFLA - check out the 17 step click and select procedure to make sure a user doesn't already exist in the database

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Oct 03, 2018 0
Adobe Community Professional ,
Oct 03, 2018

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Is this what you are talking about Check if a Record Already Exists in Your Database - YouTube? My customers are laughing too, this functionality costs them about a quarter of what it used to.

It saves me

  • a heap of repetitive coding
  • having to test the functionality
  • ensuring a secure script

The downside for me

  • too much spare time for personal relaxation.

Ben

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Oct 03, 2018 0
LEGEND ,
Oct 04, 2018

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BenPleysier  wrote

Is this what you are talking about Check if a Record Already Exists in Your Database - YouTube? My customers are laughing too, this functionality costs them about a quarter of what it used to.

It saves me

  • a heap of repetitive coding
  • having to test the functionality
  • ensuring a secure script

The downside for me

  • too much spare time for personal relaxation.

If you're trying to inform me you cant make a query to a database and bring back the results in less time than it takes to click through 17 steps then sorry that's exactly why you need Wappler.

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Oct 04, 2018 0
LEGEND ,
Oct 04, 2018

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One thing I would like to say, is that automation in any profession is not just throwing everything in, that may be required, it also requires different approaches to how much is automated depending on the end products requirements.

As an example, no manufacturer builds anything with everything included, then disconnects features that the client has not paid for. Instead they customise each product, (with some overlap) but automate the basics that are common to all products in that range, a particular car/auto model may look the same, because the building of the body shell is automated, but each clients required extras are individually added.

The requirements of a basic rwd site for a local buisness offering a service to the local community, is completely different to a rwd site selling world wide, so whilst you can automate some of the development process, it requires a professional who knows what they are doing to customise the requirements.

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Oct 04, 2018 0
Mentor ,
Sep 29, 2018

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pziecina  wrote

[...] driving force is aimed at casual users, and beginners, [...] professionals are forgotten.

Agreed.

I think the presence of CC sadly continues to aid in the faltering of many things at Adobe for professionals. One being the need for actual innovation or adherence to industry standards is no longer tied to profits. As long as profits roll in from constant averaged or increasing user numbers (+/-), as they currently are, where is the dependence for innovative incentive?

Adobe knows they can simply market things regardless of needed innovations, competitive advantage or industry requirements. This becomes increasingly easy when casual consumers far out weigh professionals as the new target market for profits. Now days a few features every so often seems to be what is considered innovation as long as they can market trivial progress to generalized consumers. Even if they in fact remain behind in various areas, the majority of users feel progress is being made regardless.

In my opinion Adobe XD is perhaps another good example of lacking industry awareness and trajectory, when viewed in comparison to existing and even currently emerging new competitive tools still to be officially released. So if Adobe is that lagging with their newer endeavors and offerings what then is the hope for existing long standing products like Dreamweaver?

-$ < +$$$$$$$

For every professional whom leaves or is dissatisfied with Adobe, a multitude of willing new users arrive, Adobe sees no problem.

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Sep 29, 2018 0
LEGEND ,
Oct 05, 2018

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Quite honestly I do not know what we are discussing in this discussion anymore?

Given that the next version of Dw will probably be released in 13-14 days time, and Ben is asking the Dw team to consider 'complaint driven development', it does not look good for what they are going to present us with, as the next evolution in Dw's development.

I do notice though, that no one has talked about what features are missing in Pingrow or Wappler that Dw has. Does this mean that everyone no longer takes Dw seriously or thinks it no longer has any unique features?

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Oct 05, 2018 0
LEGEND ,
Oct 05, 2018

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What unique features does DW have in it that you consider are worth mentioning and would be beneficial to the users of Pinegrow or Wappler?

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Oct 05, 2018 0
LEGEND ,
Oct 05, 2018

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osgood_  wrote

What unique features does DW have in it that you consider are worth mentioning and would be beneficial to the users of Pinegrow or Wappler?

I don't know, I have not used Wappler since it was released to the public, and Pinegrow I have only used the trial to see how they implemented css grids. Both failed completely in matching my requirerments, but I was looking at both from what a coder may find helpfull. That said I find nothing in Dw worth using, even if it wad an open source projects, let alone as a paid for program.

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Oct 05, 2018 0
LEGEND ,
Oct 05, 2018

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The only feature that l can recall is its file management system which l think is pretty good compared to other editors be they paid for or free. DW makes it easy to create folders and then drag files into them whilst still maintaining their links, not a lot of other editors can do that, l only know of one other and that is Storm.

The feature has been requested by Wappler users but the surprising response from the developers was why would it be needed but it would be considered as an addition at a later date.

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Oct 05, 2018 0
LEGEND ,
Oct 05, 2018

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osgood_  wrote

The only feature that l can recall is its file management system which l think is pretty good compared to other editors be they paid for or free. DW makes it easy to create folders and then drag files into them whilst still maintaining their links, not a lot of other editors can do that, l only know of one other and that is Storm.

The feature has been requested by Wappler users but the surprising response from the developers was why would it be needed but it would be considered as an addition at a later date.

File managment in Dw is fine if one is developing static sites, not using srcset, not using modular development and if you have no requirerments for dynamic content managment.

When you consider that Dw's file managment has remained virtually the same since Dw MX2004, and as you say most other ide's do not have such a feature, one has to ask how none Dw users are managing files and assets when using other programs, and if it is really required except for static sites?

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LEGEND ,
Oct 05, 2018

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I think there are build files that can watch for file movement within a website folder and update the links if files are moved from folder to folder. Maybe B can confirm that or not as the case may be as l dont use build tools so l could be wrong.

As far as l know that is the only other way apart from manually updating links if you ever wanted to reorganise files into different folders.

I guess file management might have its limitations, l cant say for sure as l havent used it extensively and yes it was probably back in the days l was producing static sites. Would absolute paths not work for dynamic websites...........just trying to think, maybe not.

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Oct 05, 2018 0
LEGEND ,
Oct 05, 2018

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File and folders can be watched using gulp, but even git can watch for changes for you. Moving on in the area of file managment, one thing that Dw's built in file managment, (and even git) does not cater for is project managment.

Maybe that is why I can see little advantage in having a file managment system like Dw's, as when one is working with teams of 10+ people, project managment tends to take precedence over the individuals file managment, (except at the OS level). Programs like Team server, (a more advanced tool than git) and MS Project are much more significant and could even help with file/project managment for a lone developer I think. Of course learning how to use git correctly is also a good addition or even replacement to Dw's file managment.

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Oct 05, 2018 0
LEGEND ,
Oct 05, 2018

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Oh well l dont know l seem to get along fine doing what l do. My projects arent going to get any more complex so lm generally happy with the workflow l use. When someone asks what do you require from an editor its difficult to provide an answer because l dont require a great deal. I can use pretty much any editor really and often flip from one to the other when l get bored.

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