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css, 2 conflicting interests, and why I, You, and the Dw team get it wrong.

LEGEND ,
Oct 25, 2017

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I could have posted this in 'that other' discussion, but this is not about 'splitting Dw up', more about 2 different types of user and why we will never 100% understand each other, but do need each other in one program.

First I would like to point out that I do not work for Adobe, do not take part in any decision making, and do not participate in Dw CAB or pre-release..

I read this article a few days ago, then looked at how the W3C specs are written, and took a really good look at this and other forums posts concerning web development. No I will not include web design because if you are writing any code then that is development -

https://alistapart.com/article/the-story-of-css-grid-from-its-creators

The passage in the above linked to article that got me thinking was -

"Peter Linss, then Co-Chair of the CSS Working Group, also suggested that they incorporate the concept of grid lines in the spec (instead of only talking about tracks). He believed including this familiar graphic design concept would make the spec more accessible to designers."

(It's about 2/3rds of the way down "The spec evolves" section)

The bit about making the spec more accessible to designers, really made me laugh, because if a designer can understand the specs for css grid layouts, then actually use those specs to produce a working rwd layout. without lots and lots of of trials and errors, they are a much better coder than I.

That is where I think the understanding of coders and the Dw team, regarding designers knowledge and requirements, even those who may like to code, is being miss understood, (and visa-versa).

The Principal Dw product manager, is also responsible for the Brackets project. This means that he is probably more of a coder than a designer, but like Peter Linss of the css working group thinking that the specs from css grid layouts makes the feature more accessible to designers, does it really?

This is no insult to the Principle Dw product manager, as I am just as guilty as he is of the following -

If you watch -

https://video.tv.adobe.com/v/19908t_876d7009-77fb-4a67-86bc-70475fddf88e/?autoplay=true

In the section about the roadmap, if you listen carefully you will hear an audience member ask the question, "Does Dw support Flexbox?". To which the answer is a simple, "Yes".

The answer should have been, "Yes, but only in code view", (Live view is irrelevant for this discussion).

Now why is the simple "Yes" wrong.

css is no longer the simple 260 properties it was in the 2.1 specs, but is now well over 700 properties, many of which like flexbox and css grid layouts, are not 'so simple' to understand, even for someone who has been reading specs and interpreting the meaning of them for years. For someone who does NOT know how to read and apply them, such as a designer who has no interest in keeping up with what is happening, beyond what is required of him/her for their work, simply needs more info, and I am not talking about telling them what the specs say, which is all that is currently provided.

They need visual info, or feedback of how the property will look and work, not after they have applied the property to their code, but before they apply it. Even coders learning how to apply many of these 'newer' css features, and then using them in their actual work, would I think appreciate such feedback, and that is to me what Dw is or should be about.

So why is Dw, me and you wrong?

Dw now simply assumes that everything is so easy when it comes to html, css js, and even php, without even looking at the terminology or the requirements of the modern web site or browser based app. It has stopped being about web development and more about the 'other' trends in  web development, (the 'what 3rd party feature is missing' ones). After all who creates custom sites anymore, now that we have frameworks and cms's. Code hinting, mvc, object/function referencing, databases, etc. etc. are things of the past no one requires them or would use them, and even if you would you can still use code view, but just remember to turn linting, code completion, hinting and anything else you may require off, (and that's if it is included).

Nothing in Dw is provided for anyone not willing to work with frameworks and cms's. Designers and developers are at war trying to get their requirements included, and the coder has become a 'dirty word' in these and a number of other forums when it comes to Dw, and trying to get ideas across and accepted that are not based on css 2.1 is no longer allowed.

We have all decided that, 'It's never going to happen', 'no one is listening', or that it does not matter what we say, but maybe it's time for everyone to take a good look at Dw anyway. Time for the Dw PM's, and other Dw/Adobe staff to take part in discussions, and all 'camps' to stop looking at Dw as 'their personal program', thinking that it should be based on past or their personal requirements, and as a complete heresy, maybe the Dw team should actually look at what is required without thinking 'they know best, and dam the rest'.

More to come!!!

Thank you, Paula. The product team posted this info some time ago Message from the Dreamweaver Product team , and while I understand that this does not directly speak to the kinds of users, it is pretty much in line with what we have seen in DW updates so far and the direction it is headed. During my discussions with the team at MAX, I did not hear of anything that isn't already addressed in this post.

In my opinion, these improvements still stay true to the promise of helping designers that want to code while also accounting for developers that still want to use DW for some of their workflows, and other users that DW can help. The team gets feedback from a wide cross section of its users and our forums are just one mechanism towards this end. The team also looks at top-voted feature requests on https://dreamweaver.uservoice.com/ for any changes that may be required to their priorities. I do believe that they take all feedback seriously while maintaining focus on the roadmap. I will also share this discussion with them so that they can mull on the requests and concerns posted here.

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css, 2 conflicting interests, and why I, You, and the Dw team get it wrong.

LEGEND ,
Oct 25, 2017

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I could have posted this in 'that other' discussion, but this is not about 'splitting Dw up', more about 2 different types of user and why we will never 100% understand each other, but do need each other in one program.

First I would like to point out that I do not work for Adobe, do not take part in any decision making, and do not participate in Dw CAB or pre-release..

I read this article a few days ago, then looked at how the W3C specs are written, and took a really good look at this and other forums posts concerning web development. No I will not include web design because if you are writing any code then that is development -

https://alistapart.com/article/the-story-of-css-grid-from-its-creators

The passage in the above linked to article that got me thinking was -

"Peter Linss, then Co-Chair of the CSS Working Group, also suggested that they incorporate the concept of grid lines in the spec (instead of only talking about tracks). He believed including this familiar graphic design concept would make the spec more accessible to designers."

(It's about 2/3rds of the way down "The spec evolves" section)

The bit about making the spec more accessible to designers, really made me laugh, because if a designer can understand the specs for css grid layouts, then actually use those specs to produce a working rwd layout. without lots and lots of of trials and errors, they are a much better coder than I.

That is where I think the understanding of coders and the Dw team, regarding designers knowledge and requirements, even those who may like to code, is being miss understood, (and visa-versa).

The Principal Dw product manager, is also responsible for the Brackets project. This means that he is probably more of a coder than a designer, but like Peter Linss of the css working group thinking that the specs from css grid layouts makes the feature more accessible to designers, does it really?

This is no insult to the Principle Dw product manager, as I am just as guilty as he is of the following -

If you watch -

https://video.tv.adobe.com/v/19908t_876d7009-77fb-4a67-86bc-70475fddf88e/?autoplay=true

In the section about the roadmap, if you listen carefully you will hear an audience member ask the question, "Does Dw support Flexbox?". To which the answer is a simple, "Yes".

The answer should have been, "Yes, but only in code view", (Live view is irrelevant for this discussion).

Now why is the simple "Yes" wrong.

css is no longer the simple 260 properties it was in the 2.1 specs, but is now well over 700 properties, many of which like flexbox and css grid layouts, are not 'so simple' to understand, even for someone who has been reading specs and interpreting the meaning of them for years. For someone who does NOT know how to read and apply them, such as a designer who has no interest in keeping up with what is happening, beyond what is required of him/her for their work, simply needs more info, and I am not talking about telling them what the specs say, which is all that is currently provided.

They need visual info, or feedback of how the property will look and work, not after they have applied the property to their code, but before they apply it. Even coders learning how to apply many of these 'newer' css features, and then using them in their actual work, would I think appreciate such feedback, and that is to me what Dw is or should be about.

So why is Dw, me and you wrong?

Dw now simply assumes that everything is so easy when it comes to html, css js, and even php, without even looking at the terminology or the requirements of the modern web site or browser based app. It has stopped being about web development and more about the 'other' trends in  web development, (the 'what 3rd party feature is missing' ones). After all who creates custom sites anymore, now that we have frameworks and cms's. Code hinting, mvc, object/function referencing, databases, etc. etc. are things of the past no one requires them or would use them, and even if you would you can still use code view, but just remember to turn linting, code completion, hinting and anything else you may require off, (and that's if it is included).

Nothing in Dw is provided for anyone not willing to work with frameworks and cms's. Designers and developers are at war trying to get their requirements included, and the coder has become a 'dirty word' in these and a number of other forums when it comes to Dw, and trying to get ideas across and accepted that are not based on css 2.1 is no longer allowed.

We have all decided that, 'It's never going to happen', 'no one is listening', or that it does not matter what we say, but maybe it's time for everyone to take a good look at Dw anyway. Time for the Dw PM's, and other Dw/Adobe staff to take part in discussions, and all 'camps' to stop looking at Dw as 'their personal program', thinking that it should be based on past or their personal requirements, and as a complete heresy, maybe the Dw team should actually look at what is required without thinking 'they know best, and dam the rest'.

More to come!!!

Thank you, Paula. The product team posted this info some time ago Message from the Dreamweaver Product team , and while I understand that this does not directly speak to the kinds of users, it is pretty much in line with what we have seen in DW updates so far and the direction it is headed. During my discussions with the team at MAX, I did not hear of anything that isn't already addressed in this post.

In my opinion, these improvements still stay true to the promise of helping designers that want to code while also accounting for developers that still want to use DW for some of their workflows, and other users that DW can help. The team gets feedback from a wide cross section of its users and our forums are just one mechanism towards this end. The team also looks at top-voted feature requests on https://dreamweaver.uservoice.com/ for any changes that may be required to their priorities. I do believe that they take all feedback seriously while maintaining focus on the roadmap. I will also share this discussion with them so that they can mull on the requests and concerns posted here.

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Oct 25, 2017 1
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Mentor ,
Oct 25, 2017

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pziecina  wrote

The Principal Dw product manager, is also responsible for the Brackets project. This means that he is probably more of a coder than a designer, but like Peter Linss of the css working group thinking that the specs from css grid layouts makes the feature more accessible to designers, does it really?

This is no insult to the Principle Dw product manager, as I am just as guilty as he is of the following -

The DW Product Manager is obviously a large part of the problem. The fact that he does not interact with customers, and people like you, on this forum, is telling. The fact that he is in charge of Brackets is a little frightening, as Brackets is not even close to tools like Visual Studio and Aptana. The video, as hard as it was to follow, finally casts some light on why Dreamweaver is floundering, and it's a real shame.

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LEGEND ,
Oct 25, 2017

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ALsp  wrote

The DW Product Manager is obviously a large part of the problem. The fact that he does not interact with customers, and people like you, on this forum, is telling.

I am as much to blame as him, i will not take part in CAB or pre-release anymore, as both are in my opinion a complete and utter waste of time. Why should he and his team think that my time is less valuable than their time, and ignore anything and everything that i posted in those forums and think that is o/k. All both groups are any good for is logging bugs, and even that i have doubts about as one CAB member admitted recently that he knows nothing about code or web development, (how does one log bugs, if you do not know how it should work).

I am available for discussions through this forum, or via PM's and emails, but as i and others are ignored by them, obviously don't know anything about web development, and i in particular am obviously only a trouble maker, those possibilities are not going to happen either.

Still, is it worth someone worrying about, probably not.

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Oct 25, 2017 0
LEGEND ,
Oct 25, 2017

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pziecina  wrote

Why should he and his team think that my time is less valuable than their time, and ignore anything and everything that i posted in those forums

Because you're just a minion

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Oct 25, 2017 1
Adobe Community Professional ,
Oct 25, 2017

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yeah but she's at least, Kevin... well Kevina

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Oct 25, 2017 1
LEGEND ,
Oct 25, 2017

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I like the missunderstood part of the name, very true

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LEGEND ,
Oct 25, 2017

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pziecina  wrote

If you watch -

https://video.tv.adobe.com/v/19908t_876d7009-77fb-4a67-86bc-70475fddf88e/?autoplay=true

30mins in and all I saw was some 'charlie' faffing around with some 3rd party Bootstrap snippets and using jquery 1.11.3..........??????????? .............yawn.

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Adobe Community Professional ,
Oct 25, 2017

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osgood_  wrote

30mins in and all I saw was some 'charlie' faffing around with some 3rd party Bootstrap snippets and using jquery 1.11.3..........??????????? .............yawn.

If you listened closely, approx 80% of the room was using Bootstrap in their workflow.  The remaining 20% used Foundation or something else.  

Nancy O'Shea, ACP
Alt-Web Design & Publishing

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LEGEND ,
Oct 25, 2017

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https://forums.adobe.com/people/Nancy+OShea  wrote

If you listened closely, approx 80% of the room was using Bootstrap in their workflow.  The remaining 20% used Foundation or something else.  

That's just it Nancy, we are all caught up in what Dw has to offer, not what it should be able to do if that 'offering' is not what one wishes to use. Once a feature such as bootstrap is the only known possibility for the creation of rwd sites in Dw, then that is the one users will have to use, as they have no other choice.

We have all contributed in some way to what Dw has become, and even though we all want the same result in that Dw should be a forward looking program, none of the feedback unless it is what the Dw team wants to hear is even being thought about.

Lets just suppose that Dw offered 3 alternative methods for creating rwd sites -

  1. Bootstrap, with all the features available to users that it currently has, (plus v4 incorporated as a choice).
  2. A custom solution, say one that uses flexbox, with all additional components available via a menu selection just as bootstrap is.
  3. A 'future' solution, such as one based on css grid layouts, but all components based entirerly on html and css.

Offering the above is not difficult, but would require more than 'plug and play' incorporation into Dw. It would however require a visual layout method for some of the properties, as i am the first to admit spec code is for coders not designers who wish to code. It also requires templates, (which is easy) and those templates must be well documented.

The big question is though, which would be the most popular in say 3 years time?

Note: flexbox is now in the request for implementation stage of w3c approval, the next stage is making it into a recommendation, and css grids is not far behind, (at the moment).

ps - i already know what you are going to say Al

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Oct 25, 2017 1
LEGEND ,
Oct 25, 2017

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https://forums.adobe.com/people/Nancy+OShea  wrote

osgood_   wrote

30mins in and all I saw was some 'charlie' faffing around with some 3rd party Bootstrap snippets and using jquery 1.11.3..........??????????? .............yawn.

If you listened closely, approx 80% of the room was using Bootstrap in their workflow.  The remaining 20% used Foundation or something else.  

Well presumably those present have some kind of 'leaning' towards DW or otherwise why would they be there. If DW insists on shoving BS down its users throats what are the expectations - zombie developers, with little skill other than point and click, extension and framework junkies.

Did the latest update include Bootstrap 4 or are users still being deceived into using an outdated responsive solution......nope they had to settle for a 'new welcome screen'.....gulp?

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Oct 25, 2017 0
Mentor ,
Oct 25, 2017

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pziecina  wrote

Nancy OShea

ps - i already know what you are going to say Al

You only think you do

When Spry was introduced. I was a vocal critic. What the public never knew was I'd had numerous discussions with the people responsible for Spry. Originally, Macromedia wanted us to develop extensions for Dreamweaver - extensions that would be delivered with the product. Only problem was they refused to pay us, stating that the resultant notoriety would be the payment. So they slogged on with Spry. Even then, I told Macromedia that if Spry was at least fixed, if the code was made right, we would redirect our efforts into extending Spry. Obviously, the penchant for the last Macromedia Dreamweaver product team to blunder, must have been something Adobe chose to carry on.

Extensions are the answer. Most Dreamweaver features are, I essence, extensions. So whether Adobe makes them, or commissions them, or we make them -- the bottom line involves extending Dreamweaver.

Making visual layout tools, like our Harmony and Layout Builder Magic, tools that are far more valuable than Dreamweaver itself, is the direction. Dreamweaver should have a Flex and a Grid module, allowing users to lay out pages. Those modules can then be extended for the beginners, to include styling add-ons, themes, and other goodies.

Adobe's fatal flaw involves either shortsightedness, stupidity, or incompetence in throwing in with canned frameworks. In the final analysis, Dreamweaver is being managed by unimaginative people unwilling to invest in the effort to make a quality tool. Thank god Adobe doesn't make cars or other things that could actually, physically cause damage

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Oct 25, 2017 2
LEGEND ,
Oct 25, 2017

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O/K, i was wrong, but i had the last sentence in my thoughts correct

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Mentor ,
Oct 25, 2017

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osgood_  wrote

Nancy OShea

Well presumably those present have some kind of 'leaning' towards DW or otherwise why would they be there. If DW insists on shoving BS down its users throats what are the expectations - zombie developers, with little skill other than point and click, extension and framework junkies.

Um, most of Dreamweaver is built on the extensibility layer. Most web authoring applications are extensible. I think your problem with extensions is a personal issue of sorts. But I digress. Dreamweaver was created as a visual web design program where people pointed, clicked, and dragged to create web pages. And extensions added timely behaviors to fill in the gaps. And as I'm sure you recall, when Macromedia promoted extension developers, most of us had substantial portfolios of free extensions to go with the commercial ones.

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Adobe Community Professional ,
Oct 25, 2017

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I like extensions.  One of the things I liked about Brackets was the ability to quickly turn an extension module on or off as needed.  I had high hopes for that same level of support in Dreamweaver CC.   Nothing yet.

Nancy O'Shea, ACP
Alt-Web Design & Publishing

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LEGEND ,
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https://forums.adobe.com/people/Nancy+OShea  wrote

I like extensions.  One of the things I liked about Brackets was the ability to quickly turn an extension module on or off as needed.  I had high hopes for that same level of support in Dreamweaver CC.   Nothing yet.

It was promised that Brackets extensions would be installable in Dw at some point in the future.

I did try to convert the autoprefixer extension so that it would work in Dw, and even though i can get it to work purely on save, all the other features like which browser versions to target, and prefix only selected css, i could not get to function correctly.

The reason for that is that Dw's code view, no longer 'plugs-in' to the main menu selections as previously, and without proper up to date documentation, i cannot see how such simple, (or should be) extensions can reliably be created.

Then of course there is the problem of distributing, (and installing) such extensions.

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LEGEND ,
Oct 25, 2017

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ALsp  wrote

I think your problem with extensions is a personal issue of sorts.

Of course it is, I'm a coder.......so naturally I think extensions for those that may want to consider becoming a serious developer are a poor choice - for those that don't it doesn't matter.

My problem is I don't know who falls into which bracket in this forum. I'm quite happy for those who don't wish to learn code and be some what confined to only being able to produce what an extension allows, to use an extension. No problem.

If someone comes on here and says 'hey I'm a bricklayer, I want a menu system for the site I'm building for my company and I dont what to faff around with all this boring code stuff', more than happy to point them to your site, but they hardly ever do that.

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Mentor ,
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osgood_

If someone comes on here and says 'hey I'm a bricklayer, I want a menu system for the site I'm building for my company and I dont what to faff around with all this boring code stuff', more than happy to point them to your site, but they hardly ever do that.

I think you are injecting something perhaps a bit more personal into the issue. An efficient web designer might not want to take the time to code a menu every time he designs a site for a new client. Either he is going to create snippets of code and then tweak them manually, often laboriously, or he might opt to use our menu systems, because the quality is known, and it speeds up the site-building process. I'll repeat myself again, but I know you are generalizing about extensions, or perhaps recalling something from 10 years ago. A coder can have a field day with our tools. We just do the busy work and allow them to get straight into the customization with some very powerful CSS hooks in the UI. It would be apparent to any coder who actually spent some time with one of our newer tools, just how valuable they can be to an , um, coder

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LEGEND ,
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ALsp  wrote

I think you are injecting something perhaps a bit more personal into the issue.

Nothing personal at all, just an opinion really. I'm not against extensions at all but I can't recommend them based on what I know. If that's personal then ok, it's personal but I've been their and done it and if someone wants to progress and liberate themsleves then they need to learn to code. I don't know what can be wrong about thinking of something and being able to build it.

ALsp  wrote

Either he is going to create snippets of code and then tweak them manually

Do it myself all the time but I know exactly what the code does, it has my own naming convention, styling, workflow etc. I can tweak it to do this or that or extend it. Not sure most users of your extensions have a clue what's going on under the bonnet to be able to do something if its not quite to their liking. Not much time saving really if you have your own snippets of code.

ALsp  wrote

A coder can have a field day with our tools. We just do the busy work and allow them to get straight into the customization with some very powerful CSS hooks in the UI. It would be apparent to any coder who actually spent some time with one of our newer tools, just how valuable they can be to an , um, coder

I'm sure they could but some 'developers' have very specific requirements, or maybe even simple requirements that an extension just can't do or doesn't have an option to do.

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osgood_  wrote

ALsp   wrote

I think you are injecting something perhaps a bit more personal into the issue.

Nothing personal at all, just an opinion really. I'm not against extensions at all but I can't recommend them based on what I know. If that's personal then ok, it's personal but I've been their and done it and if someone wants to progress and liberate themsleves then they need to learn to code. I don't know what can be wrong about thinking of something and being able to build it.

ALsp   wrote

Either he is going to create snippets of code and then tweak them manually

Do it myself all the time but I know exactly what the code does, it has my own naming convention, styling, workflow etc. I can tweak it to do this or that or extend it. Not sure most users of your extensions have a clue what's going on under the bonnet to be able to do something if its not quite to their liking. Not much time saving really if you have your own snippets of code.

ALsp   wrote

A coder can have a field day with our tools. We just do the busy work and allow them to get straight into the customization with some very powerful CSS hooks in the UI. It would be apparent to any coder who actually spent some time with one of our newer tools, just how valuable they can be to an , um, coder

I'm sure they could but some 'developers' have very specific requirements, or maybe even simple requirements that an extension just can't do or doesn't have an option to do.

Just as I thought. I think perhaps you looked at one or more extensions many years ago and are using them to judge all extensions - even today. That said, in our experience, there are precious few developers with the knowledge to actually write or even tweak a widget. For instance, if most people need a light box-type widget, they download or buy a free script. No way do they write their own 🙂 So, how many people posting on this forum actually write a script? So, then, by coding, do you mean copying a free script and pasting it into your page markup? And then reading a doc file only to change script variables and perhaps data attributes on a tag? Is that what you mean by coding?

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LEGEND ,
Oct 26, 2017

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ALsp  wrote

Just as I thought. I think perhaps you looked at one or more extensions many years ago and are using them to judge all extensions - even today. That said, in our experience, there are precious few developers with the knowledge to actually write or even tweak a widget. For instance, if most people need a light box-type widget, they download or buy a free script. No way do they write their own 🙂 So, how many people posting on this forum actually write a script? So, then, by coding, do you mean copying a free script and pasting it into your page markup? And then reading a doc file only to change script variables and perhaps data attributes on a tag? Is that what you mean by coding?

No, I mean a coder, if you code or produce coding should have some idea of how the bloody code they are using works, not just change  a few variables or add some data-attributes to a tag.

You say 'if most people need a light box-type widget', not 'most developers' - and there perhaps is the distinction people who produce websites for a hobby or as a one off and developers who produce websites for a living.

Sure I've used scripts for lightboxes BUT I'm intrigued enough to want to know how it works so if I want to make some subtle changes, whatever that may be, or if its outside the scope of the extension/script, I can. Even re-write it so I can better understand it. Some scripts are so bloated to do the simplest of things, its unbelieable, if you dont know code you don't know if what you are using is any good or not, that to a non-coder of course doesn't matter.

I'm a great admirer of craftsmen, those who can open up an editor and start writing without having to stop, start, stop, start, refer to this website or that, a book, a doc etc. That's not coding or developing, that's doing something by trial and error. I've helped absolutely numerous people in this forum who if had a little knowledge of coding wouldn't need my help. I can't think that being in charge of a runaway train is much fun really so that's why I would like them to spend a bit of time learning, that's of course if they produce enough websites where the time it takes to learn is beneficial. Theres no point in investing time if youre a 'here today gone tomorrow operator'. That's when extensions might be suitable, in my opinion.

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Oct 26, 2017 0
Mentor ,
Oct 31, 2017

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osgood_  wrote

ALsp   wrote

I think your problem with extensions is a personal issue of sorts.

Of course it is, I'm a coder.......so naturally I think extensions for those that may want to consider becoming a serious developer are a poor choice - for those that don't it doesn't matter.

My problem is I don't know who falls into which bracket in this forum. I'm quite happy for those who don't wish to learn code and be some what confined to only being able to produce what an extension allows, to use an extension. No problem.

If someone comes on here and says 'hey I'm a bricklayer, I want a menu system for the site I'm building for my company and I dont what to faff around with all this boring code stuff', more than happy to point them to your site, but they hardly ever do that.

Again, I believe you are making assumptions without actually having used any of our modern extensions. You, as a coder, can use an extension to insert bulletproof, consistent mark to, say, create a flex or floated layout. You can then create one or more exception CSS files to make that code do whatever you want. The extension simply ensures that you can create that page in seconds, rather than minutes or, more likely, hours.

As for the extensions that deal with script, you can easily customize that script if you understand how to write modern, object-oriented script yourself, rather than following tutorials on jQuery.

I think this is why Fortune 500 companies, as well as many governments around the world, use our tools 🙂

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Oct 31, 2017 0
LEGEND ,
Oct 31, 2017

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ALsp  wrote

As for the extensions that deal with script, you can easily customize that script if you understand how to write modern, object-oriented script yourself, rather than following tutorials on jQuery.

We'll youre just echoing what I'm saying - if you know code you can customize it - whatever - modern-oriented, jquery, php whatever you believe is right for you or just write the script yourself in the language of your choice not the extension developers.

I think this is why Fortune 500 companies, as well as many governments around the world, use our tools 🙂

Those kinds of companies, especially Government centric ones tend to employ poor developers on high wages that mostly dont know how to write anything without using an extension.

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Oct 31, 2017 0
Mentor ,
Oct 31, 2017

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osgood_  wrote

ALsp   wrote

As for the extensions that deal with script, you can easily customize that script if you understand how to write modern, object-oriented script yourself, rather than following tutorials on jQuery.

We'll youre just echoing what I'm saying - if you know code you can customize it - whatever - modern-oriented, jquery, php whatever you believe is right for you or just write the script yourself in the language of your choice not the extension developers.

I think this is why Fortune 500 companies, as well as many governments around the world, use our tools 🙂

Those kinds of companies, especially Government centric ones tend to employ poor developers on high wages that mostly dont know how to write anything without using an extension.

This topic will likely be locked before logic prevails, but I can try...

jQuery is like Bootstrap's script persona. It is intended as a one stop shop for people with a partial understanding of JavaScript. There are very few "coders" around today who can actually write a complete, purposed script. So, no matter what you say, at least in terms of JavaScript, you are very heavily dependent on other people's code and techniques 🙂

And your comments regarding governments? I'm not sure I'm following, unless it is that because some of them might be doing something you do not agree with, they are open for ridicule.

This forum could be so great. It really could. I'm sorry you feel the way you do, Osgood. It's not because you disagree with me. I can handle that. It's the way you do. But I guess it's a reflection of modern society.

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Oct 31, 2017 2
LEGEND ,
Oct 31, 2017

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ALsp  wrote

osgood_   wrote

Those kinds of companies, especially Government centric ones tend to employ poor developers on high wages that mostly dont know how to write anything without using an extension.

This topic will likely be locked before logic prevails, but I can try...

First as someone who works for many governments, (on both sides of the Atlantic, and in many different countries) i can honestly say i am not on high wages.

I am on a salary.

As for being a poor developer !!!

As for fortune 500 companies and governments using extensions, i have yet to know of any that do, but maybe out-sourced front facing sites may do so, those i do not get involved with or have any say in what they do.

As for locking this discussion, only if it gets personal.

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Oct 31, 2017 0
Mentor ,
Oct 31, 2017

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pziecina  wroteALsp

As for locking this discussion, only if it gets personal.

Yeah, well, that's another thing. If you have the authority to lock a discussion, then you should have the authority to guide this forum in a more productive way toward the interests of the typical Dreamweaver user. It's all extremely fascinating to me. But pleas do not take it personally.

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Oct 31, 2017 0
LEGEND ,
Oct 31, 2017

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ALsp  wrote

pziecina   wroteALsp

As for locking this discussion, only if it gets personal.

Yeah, well, that's another thing. If you have the authority to lock a discussion, then you should have the authority to guide this forum in a more productive way toward the interests of the typical Dreamweaver user.

..

But pleas do not take it personally.

I rarely take things personal, except when stupidity is involved.

As for guiding this forum, that is not in my remit. If it was i would ban the lot of you (LOL)

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Oct 31, 2017 0
LEGEND ,
Oct 31, 2017

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ALsp  wrote

This topic will likely be locked before logic prevails, but I can try...

jQuery is like Bootstrap's script persona. It is intended as a one stop shop for people with a partial understanding of JavaScript. There are very few "coders" around today who can actually write a complete, purposed script. So, no matter what you say, at least in terms of JavaScript, you are very heavily dependent on other people's code and techniques 🙂

Well I guess you could take that to the extreme and say we are all using html, css etc which are other peoples code and techniques

Its actually what you do with it that counts or more to the point what you can do with it . Some can do more than others given they have taken the trouble to invest time rather than using extensions and html frameworks, regardless of what you think or say.

ALsp  wrote

And your comments regarding governments? I'm not sure I'm following, unless it is that because some of them might be doing something you do not agree with, they are open for ridicule.

A lot of Government departments don't always employ the sharpest 'tools' in the box. Infact they have a track record of employing 3rd or 4th tier skilled workers that probably would need to use an extension or framework to get the job done.

ALsp  wrote

This forum could be so great. It really could. I'm sorry you feel the way you do, Osgood. It's not because you disagree with me. I can handle that. It's the way you do. But I guess it's a reflection of modern society.

Now you've lost me. I'm just giving an opinion.....no need to feel sorry, save that for yourself.

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Oct 31, 2017 0
LEGEND ,
Oct 31, 2017

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pziecina  wrote

As for being a poor developer !!!

I'm not saying everyone that works for Government is under qualified. It just depends - local government is rife with underperforming personal on high salaries paid for by the tax payer.....so heck yeah I should be jumping up and down if they are wasting my money on extensions

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Oct 31, 2017 0
Mentor ,
Oct 31, 2017

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osgood_  wrote

ALsp   wrote

This topic will likely be locked before logic prevails, but I can try...

jQuery is like Bootstrap's script persona. It is intended as a one stop shop for people with a partial understanding of JavaScript. There are very few "coders" around today who can actually write a complete, purposed script. So, no matter what you say, at least in terms of JavaScript, you are very heavily dependent on other people's code and techniques 🙂

Well I guess you could take that to the extreme and say we are all using html, css etc which are other peoples code and techniques

Its actually what you do with it that counts or more to the point what you can do with it . Some can do more than others given they have taken the trouble to invest time rather than using extensions and html frameworks, regardless of what you think or say.

ALsp   wrote

And your comments regarding governments? I'm not sure I'm following, unless it is that because some of them might be doing something you do not agree with, they are open for ridicule.

A lot of Government departments don't always employ the sharpest 'tools' in the box. Infact they have a track record of employing 3rd or 4th tier skilled workers that probably would need to use an extension or framework to get the job done.

ALsp   wrote

This forum could be so great. It really could. I'm sorry you feel the way you do, Osgood. It's not because you disagree with me. I can handle that. It's the way you do. But I guess it's a reflection of modern society.

Now you've lost me. I'm just giving an opinion.....no need to feel sorry, save that for yourself.

No, you're not giving an opinion, your speaking as if you have some sort of ex cathedra privileges here. In my opinion, you don't merit that privilege. In my opinion, and in my observation, you have not earned it. There is a right way to express a dissenting opinion. In my opinion, it is not one of your skills.

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Oct 31, 2017 3
LEGEND ,
Nov 01, 2017

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ALsp  wrote

... then you should have the authority to guide this forum in a more productive way toward the interests of the typical Dreamweaver user.

Nothing much is being posted in the forum, so I will ask a question if I may AL?

"What would you say are the interests of the typical Dreamweaver user"?

Anyone else can also say what they think are the interests also.

BTW: I am asking because I cannot see what the typical Dw user 'is' interested in.

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Nov 01, 2017 0
LEGEND ,
Nov 01, 2017

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ALsp  wrote

No, you're not giving an opinion, your speaking as if you have some sort of ex cathedra privileges here. In my opinion, you don't merit that privilege. In my opinion, and in my observation, you have not earned it. There is a right way to express a dissenting opinion. In my opinion, it is not one of your skills.

So you don't like me expressing an opinion about extensions, that's going to be pretty obvious as you earn money by producing them, now that's a really big shock.

Like you would know all about dipolmacy. I've followed some of your 'debates' in other forums and you soon loose it if you think anyone is being disrespectful to yourself and your opinions.

I dont really care if think how I express myself is to your standards or not.  Get over youself. Nearly everyone of your posts contains a barbed and quite derogatory remark, unlike me you don't even know you're doing it.

I certainly dont see what you have done to earn any respect or merit. How many issues do you ever solve in this forum or is it just all about how many extensions you can shift?

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Nov 01, 2017 0
Adobe Community Professional ,
Nov 01, 2017

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Tut tut! I just found this interesting link.

Getting back to the subject, I do use extensions for Dreamweaver to a very high degree. The reason that I use extensions is because they save me time which in turn saves my clients dollars. Surely there is no debating that logic. Surely it is better than copying and pasting code for a widget from the internet or from someone else's website. Or is there? I know for a fact that PVII widgets contain vanilla JavaScript, no jQuery. How good is that?


Ben

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Nov 01, 2017 1
LEGEND ,
Nov 01, 2017

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BenPleysier  wrote

Tut tut! I just found this interesting link.

Getting back to the subject, I do use extensions for Dreamweaver to a very high degree. The reason that I use extensions is because they save me time which in turn saves my clients dollars. Surely there is no debating that logic. Surely it is better than copying and pasting code for a widget from the internet or from someone else's website. Or is there? I know for a fact that PVII widgets contain vanilla JavaScript, no jQuery. How good is that?

Sadly you and Al have me all wrong. You both take yourself too seriously and usually misinterpet many of my posts as being arrogant or not sincere. I'm here to depart whatever knowledge I may have and hopefully help a few posters. I've always been humble in saying I'm not as good as I should be or even want to be. I'm still learning and I like to give the benefit of my learning to others IF they will/want to listen based on all the bad experiences I've been through getting to a level which may or may not be beyond where they currently are.

Having a laugh and lightening the mood sometimes along the way is all part of my character. I'm very sorry if both you an Al find it hard to accept me as I am. There's really nothing I can say or do or add to that. I am what I am, not perfect by any means, I know that, whereas I don't think either you or All know that you are not perfect either.

As for saving time. I've stated in many many posts, which you chose to ignore ,money is not always the prime objective. It depends what kind of client you work for. Plus in the past I've taken your challenge of extension v hand-coding and completly shown it to be equally as fast or in some cases faster.

I don't know who is saying anything about taking code from someone else website or internet and pasting it, not me.

Much like Bootstrap works using vanilla javascript, not, please use a workflow that you preach, otherwise some might think you are being insincere just becuse you find me objectionable. Personal issues should not come into it.

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Nov 01, 2017 0
LEGEND ,
Oct 30, 2017

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O/K, now we have no more posts concerning extensions, (hopefully now out of everyones system) here is that 'more to come' i hinted at in my original post.

css and html/javascript was thrown into turmoil 10 years ago, the cause of that turmoil was the iPhone, and with its introduction the mobile web was born. We however as web developers tried desperately to 'shoe horn' our old tried and tested methods of creating sites into the sites we created so they also catered for those mobile devices, with varying success, but we never did really come to terms with how to actually do it, and now just to make matters worse, we have a revolution happening at the other end of the scale, with 4k desktop monitors, smart tv's and 4k gaming consoles, (with built in browsers) becomming more and more common.

Large companys invented frameworks to make development 'easier', promoted the use of pre/post-processors and as a result a generation of new developers never bothered, or thought they did not need to think about the future, or what was happening outside of those 'helper' tools. Even those with very little design or coding knowledge could get into rwd, and many did so thinking that the framework was how thing were supposed to be, and if you mentioned css to them, they looked at you with a blank expression as pre/post-processor code was all they knew, (what is this thing called css).

Programs such as Dw, have now embraced the framework, and incorporated many of the features users of them require, but in doing so abandoned the user requirering a semi-visual environment, the coder, the future, and to a large extent anyone who does not buy into the one size fits all way of working, and the tools Dw provides. They have done this at the same time programs such as VS have moved such features and tools they now provide to individual extensions, with the reasons given including, 'not every user requires them or wants them anymore', and 'the original reasons for including them, no longer exists'.

SO -

We now have dedicated css layout modules, css that can be conditionally included using css, css features that no framework includes, css that enhance a sites end users experiance, across all devices, viewports and resolutions. Even html and accessibility has moved on from those early days, (of 10 years ago) and browsers are starting to 'ignore' badly written javascript.

The question all the above asks is, why has Dw become what it is and is it worth my or anyone elses time who does not fit into Dw's 'vision'?

I would say NO, but then again i develop in components, not sites. I would also say YES, if i did not know how to use the css layout modules, modern css, html5 or was not interested in accessibility. I would also say NO if i was developing database driven sites, but YES if i was happy using extensions for server-side code.

There is no definitive answer to the above question, as everyone is different, working in different environments from single self-employed users to small 2-5 person teams, and working with different sized budgets from a few hundred to budgets that make the Ps budget look like petty-cash.

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Oct 30, 2017 0
Adobe Community Professional ,
Oct 30, 2017

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so what ?

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Oct 30, 2017 1
LEGEND ,
Oct 31, 2017

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There is no so what Birnou.

All the information is there, and what the reader wishes to think, (or not) is for them to decide. I decided to write everything in an obtuse manner, as we all read into something exactly what we wish to read into it.

My conclusions will not be yours, just as yours will not be someone elses.

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Oct 31, 2017 0
Adobe Community Professional ,
Oct 31, 2017

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I'm certainly missed something in your write, I should put in google translator... I said So what ? just because, what I red from your text was like... the sky is blue, the wind blow, the sun arise, the birds sing or ... the sky is dark, the wind stop, the birds are not around... whatever... I mean nothing is really subjective, or I didn't find any sort of position... but as I said I'm certainly missed it... I should add more white wine to my today Sauerkraut... hmmm

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Oct 31, 2017 0
LEGEND ,
Oct 31, 2017

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Hi Birnou,

Don't bother with google translator, as it would probably make even less sense than it does now.

My idea of writting in an obtuse manner, was that i could simply make statements, without drawing any conclussions or saying xyz is wrong in Dw, (or any other ide). By doing so the discussion is open to anyone to decide what is happening, or even not happening in web development.

Normally such discussions say this or that is wrong, xyz should be better supported, but in my experiance just one or two points out of a number of points are normally highlighted by others in such writings, and often those one or two points are taken out of context. This way i hoped people could just simply, 'have their say' without bothering about specifics, or saying anyone is wrong.

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Oct 31, 2017 0
Adobe Community Professional ,
Oct 31, 2017

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well, I must admit that I've missed those points... and there are so much ways of users type and needs that it is very wide open as subject.

in an other hand how many of us expect that anything done will be done in within DW IDE ?

personnaly DW is just a part of the tools used everyday for web purpose... if it handle the job, cool, if not, I find the appropriate one for such a need... whatever the road taken, DW (or any other molecular tools used) musn't create interfact each other...

the best exemple I can use for demonstrate it... DW propose SASS... cool... DW propose Bootstrap... cool... DW propose GIT... cool... but I don't use any of them from DW.... Sass is handle by Ruby and use GEMs that DW doesn't propose... Bootstrap... I simply don't use it... I prefer to rely on other frameworks alternatives... GIT, well most of the command that I need go throught tasks or directly on command lines...

but all the above doesn't mean that I don't use DW...

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Oct 31, 2017 1
Adobe Community Professional ,
Oct 31, 2017

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It's the same for me Birnou.  I frequently use Photoshop to edit images.  But I don't use everything Photoshop can offer.  It's the same with Dreamweaver.   I use what is appropriate for my project and ignore the rest.

Nancy O'Shea, ACP
Alt-Web Design & Publishing

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Oct 31, 2017 1
Mentor ,
Oct 31, 2017

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https://forums.adobe.com/people/B+i+r+n+o+u  wrote

well, I must admit that I've missed those points... and there are so much ways of users type and needs that it is very wide open as subject.

in an other hand how many of us expect that anything done will be done in within DW IDE ?

personnaly DW is just a part of the tools used everyday for web purpose... if it handle the job, cool, if not, I find the appropriate one for such a need... whatever the road taken, DW (or any other molecular tools used) musn't create interfact each other...

the best exemple I can use for demonstrate it... DW propose SASS... cool... DW propose Bootstrap... cool... DW propose GIT... cool... but I don't use any of them from DW.... Sass is handle by Ruby and use GEMs that DW doesn't propose... Bootstrap... I simply don't use it... I prefer to rely on other frameworks alternatives... GIT, well most of the command that I need go throught tasks or directly on command lines...

but all the above doesn't mean that I don't use DW...

As an "ACP" (whatever that actually means) and a frequent poster on the prerelease forum, you are taken seriously by average users. In my opinion, that brings with it a certain responsibility. That's basically it. You can take that as an insult or an opportunity, or not at all 🙂

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LEGEND ,
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https://forums.adobe.com/people/B+i+r+n+o+u  wrote

well, I must admit that I've missed those points... and there are so much ways of users type and needs that it is very wide open as subject.

...

but all the above doesn't mean that I don't use DW...

That's the idea of myself not writing or concentrating on any particular point(s). It allows posters to say what they want, (just as yourself, Os and Nancy have done). If someone wished to do so, one could also just pick a particular paragraph and reply to that, or even 'add' a paragraph to discuss.

Everything is open.

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LEGEND ,
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https://forums.adobe.com/people/Nancy+OShea  wrote

It's the same for me Birnou.  I frequently use Photoshop to edit images.  But I don't use everything Photoshop can offer.  It's the same with Dreamweaver.   I use what is appropriate for my project and ignore the rest.

Its just a shame you also have to ignore what it DOESNT include and should....still as I said that can be said for the majoriy of software programs. I get along just fine using any darn editor, past or present, they are all the same. I have no allegiance to any of them any longer being as though they are as poor as one another.

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LEGEND ,
Oct 31, 2017

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pziecina  wrote

O/K, now we have no more posts concerning extensions, (hopefully now out of everyones system) here is that 'more to come' i hinted at in my original post.

css and html/javascript was thrown into turmoil 10 years ago, the cause of that turmoil was the iPhone, and with its introduction the mobile web was born. We however as web developers tried desperately to 'shoe horn' our old tried and tested methods of creating sites into the sites we created so they also catered for those mobile devices, with varying success, but we never did really come to terms with how to actually do it, and now just to make matters worse, we have a revolution happening at the other end of the scale, with 4k desktop monitors, smart tv's and 4k gaming consoles, (with built in browsers) becomming more and more common.

Large companys invented frameworks to make development 'easier', promoted the use of pre/post-processors and as a result a generation of new developers never bothered, or thought they did not need to think about the future, or what was happening outside of those 'helper' tools. Even those with very little design or coding knowledge could get into rwd, and many did so thinking that the framework was how thing were supposed to be, and if you mentioned css to them, they looked at you with a blank expression as pre/post-processor code was all they knew, (what is this thing called css).

Programs such as Dw, have now embraced the framework, and incorporated many of the features users of them require, but in doing so abandoned the user requirering a semi-visual environment, the coder, the future, and to a large extent anyone who does not buy into the one size fits all way of working, and the tools Dw provides. They have done this at the same time programs such as VS have moved such features and tools they now provide to individual extensions, with the reasons given including, 'not every user requires them or wants them anymore', and 'the original reasons for including them, no longer exists'.

SO -

We now have dedicated css layout modules, css that can be conditionally included using css, css features that no framework includes, css that enhance a sites end users experiance, across all devices, viewports and resolutions. Even html and accessibility has moved on from those early days, (of 10 years ago) and browsers are starting to 'ignore' badly written javascript.

The question all the above asks is, why has Dw become what it is and is it worth my or anyone elses time who does not fit into Dw's 'vision'?

I would say NO, but then again i develop in components, not sites. I would also say YES, if i did not know how to use the css layout modules, modern css, html5 or was not interested in accessibility. I would also say NO if i was developing database driven sites, but YES if i was happy using extensions for server-side code.

There is no definitive answer to the above question, as everyone is different, working in different environments from single self-employed users to small 2-5 person teams, and working with different sized budgets from a few hundred to budgets that make the Ps budget look like petty-cash.

The way I now see DW is this.

It has nothing unique to offer. It's more or less like any number of other editors in the market place. I don't particularly think it's any worse or better than the other editors in some areas. Having used it for many years I would have liked to have seen it evolve into a better programme but in my opinion it has declined over the past few years. What it and the other editors don't offer are 'practical' ways to do basic things or required things in modern day website develoment like css pre-fixing.

I'm a developer in the middle tier. I don't want to use a terminal or command line to install preprocessors or task runners. I don't want to use Sass or Less to handle just pre-processing as I see no point for the kind of websites that I produce. I don't want to use 3rd party applications like Prepros or Code-kit. I want an editor which does the basics out-of-the-box and then if I require some fancy workflow I can add that as requied not be forced to add it just to do something simple.

On another subject, as I dont want to appear as though I'm always being critical of DW have you ever tried to create a snippet in VC Code or Atom, Brackets etc? WOW they are all crap, now requiring some silly json.file where all snippets are contained in one long list, WTF? So its not just DW that is getting it wrong, they all are.

Every modern editor I've tried and believe me Ive tried dozens over the last few months (I've now run out of options) is lacking in some area. Where one gets it right the other doesn't and vice-versa.

If you specifically want to pick on DW then it died when it decided to leave it up to 3rd parties to provide the basics i.e., Server Behaviours was a unique selling point that no other editor could touch. It allowed entry level access to buidling a database driven site to hobbyists and amatuers, now what does it offer.......a few out-of-date Bootstrap snippets which you can get from the Bootstrap website and build your own....how is that innovative or forward thinking? An editor whiere you can't edit the color scheme easily, as I understand it wrapping snippets have disappeared and you have to drop back to a previous version to bring them in. I mean currently it's not really fit for purpose.

Having said that believe me I've sat in all the other editor forums where they have tried to bring the editor kicking and screaming into what is thought of as state-of-the-art and they are getting just as  much flack.

Now lets look at todays 'kids'. A new concept of workflow has evolved which involves helpers, frameworks - trying to produce a website using one language, javascript, instead of having to learn 2 or 3, php, asp, cf etc - Gulp, Grunt, Pug , Pulp, Ding, Ping - I thought this may be clever but I'm now beginning to think this may be as a result of being a web-developer doesn't require much skill any longer, so someone invents a workflow which is mostly beyond the concept of what is considered, or has been in the past considered the normal workflow, which has become too mainstream that anyone can do it and is no longer skillful.

Will React, Angular, Bootstrap, etc stand the test of time or are they only here for a few years - Ruby is already suffering a decline as is JQuery. But again are they now just unfashionable, rather than being 'obsolete' in the eyes of some.  I've studdied many a tutoraial on React, Angular etc and developers are using them to do what javascript or jQuery can do in a few lines of code. Is this because the 'kids' have no concept of javascript/jquery/php etc or is this what they think is the correct workflow and is now being taught as mainstream?

Just my thoughts.

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Oct 31, 2017 1
Adobe Community Professional ,
Nov 02, 2017

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Well, it is hard to take part in such a discussion. That is right that I know you all by your various interventions on the CAB, but I do not really know what are your cultures and your deep personality.

That sometimes makes the comprehension of the humor subversive or not, the self-mockery, or just the simple provocation, not easy to capture for those of us that are not native English spoken.

That often makes the deep bottom line sometimes difficult to interpret. Therefore, to make the difference between a direct way of speaking or a gratuitous aggression.

Well that said,

Having no visibility on the real directives necessary for the average users of DW, nor the orientations of the entrepreneurial strategies concerning the Creative Cloud's audience. It is difficult to position oneself on the good or bad choices, of the successive versions of DW.

I remark that we are all just express our own subjectivity, based on our own and personal business.  I often read in this thread, "... developer, casual developer, designer (to interpret it by non-developer)... and so on.... ".

However, hey, one criteria that is not present is that whatever we consider ourselves in which case we are... One all have to support the company to which we are affiliate. For that, we have to render projects on time to satisfy our clients or partners. We have to render a service beyond their requirement. We have to preserve a value for money that is up to the market. We are often part of a team... and each member of this team generally does not have the same field of action, nor the same approach and vision of the web site construction than us... But, we all have to refer and use the same technologies by tools which at one point somehow DW is part. (at least for us on this forum)

Moreover, today, the notion of a website itself can be completely different. Depending on whether one are trying to present a newsletter, or building a one page site full of animation, parallax effects, transitions.... , or having a hard dynamic website 'à la papa' ('old fashion look and feel') completely PHP/SQL based, or a web application that meets innovative needs relying on 'modern' conception, or being distributed as a complete integrated mobile consultation...

We also must not forget that some of us will take into account the quality of a code, and being more demanding on that point. Unlike others that will not hesitate to copy / paste here and there sections of code (more or less questionable), taking into account only the final rendering being the emerged part of the site and which will make the final reference.

We should not forget that the structure is the first major and important point, and that the HTML code quality will arise a strong guarantee of durability, scalability, interpretability and so on.

Therefore, whatever the profiles that we do have, by using DW we should at least know and understand basics of robust and well-interpreted HTML, we also must be sensitive to the structure, to the DOM, and to a real content strategy.

In such a thinking, must DW be a simple text editor? a complete IDE? a base for receiving extensions?

Should DW be more designer oriented than developer, or vice versa, or have to answer as well to the one as to the other?

I think that only Adobe can position such answers, and, understand what the real needs of their users is. But, in any case, DW must be able to remain independent of any third technology, or addons. DW must be open to be usable with other crosscutting tools, being part of the Creative Cloud or not.

As far as I am concerned, I think that DW should in no way become a complete and autonomous tool. On the contrary, DW must propose tools and features that allows us to not rely, and depend, on any add-ons to produce content based on pure Mozdev and WhatWG standards (becoming later on w3c recommendations).

Having a real time editable rendering, having a drag drop components interface to build and reflect the content strategy, integrating in such a way most of the needed technologies is what DW propose since the Macromedia age to gain more pure designers users, and that is a great bridge. However, this should not exclude the minimum coding skills mentioned above. And DW must always be on the gap in terms of novelty and future recommendations

then for extra features (features above basic needs), should we use and rely on extensions or not?

The main question are, Does the use of extension is time saving for this project, does the extension really meets the goals expectations, does the extension cost remains financially acceptable, does the use of the extension offers real interoperability with the rest of the team or with their own skills. 

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Nov 02, 2017 0
LEGEND ,
Nov 02, 2017

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Congratulations Birnou, i think you have the jist of discussions such as this, which with not having english as your first language is quite an achivement. Even us who use english as a first language can, and often do get the other persons intentions and/or meanings wrong, (myself and AL being a classic example, in a couple of posts above).

I would ask though what, if any, your conclussions are. As from your post I am not certain if like me you think extensions are good, but learning to code is better. Or if you think Dw itself should include some of the features that currently rely on extensions?

It also sounds as though you agree with Os, (and others, me for example ) in that Dw should also become a more professional web development tool.

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Nov 02, 2017 0
Mentor ,
Nov 02, 2017

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pziecina  wrote

Congratulations Birnou, i think you have the jist of discussions such as this, which with not having english as your first language is quite an achivement. Even us who use english as a first language can, and often do get the other persons intentions and/or meanings wrong, (myself and AL being a classic example, in a couple of posts above).

I would ask though what, if any, your conclussions are. As from your post I am not certain if like me you think extensions are good, but learning to code is better. Or if you think Dw itself should include some of the features that currently rely on extensions?

It also sounds as though you agree with Os, (and others, me for example ) in that Dw should also become a more professional web development tool.

The problem is that Dreamweaver cannot be both. I can't prove it to you, but I'm pretty sure that Dreamweaver's typical user is not a coder. But be that as it may, Macromedia figured this out many years ago, but after a change in management (still prior to Adobe) they lost their way. The sweet spot was Dreamweaver + Homesite. Homesite in its day was a nearly perfect code editor. Dreamweaver, though far from perfect, was the best visual web editor on the market. Flash forward to today. Dreamweaver is still trying to figure out what it wants to be when it grows up, Homesite was killed, and now we have Brackets, which is simply not in the same league as Homesite or the better code editors of today.

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LEGEND ,
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Please don't mention Brackets AL, the more i use it the more I dislike it.

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Mentor ,
Nov 02, 2017

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pziecina  wrote

Please don't mention Brackets AL, the more i use it the more I dislike it.

Sorry. But here's the thing...

People who want to be coders might listen to Adobe and install B_ _ _k_ _ s. And they might believe that this is what a professional code editor is. But since they are not really code experts yet, they haven't used a good code editor, such as Visual Studio, Aptana, or several of the other decent ones. This is why the nature of the typical Dreamweaver user is so hard to pin down. They sometimes, perhaps often, believe what Adobe tells them, what this forum tells them. They haven't seen the light yet . They tend also to believe that Bootstrap is the cat's meow. Ah, kids. And related to all that, they believe that when Google leads them to a cool image gallery or menu, and they copy the code and paste it inside their Dreamweaver page, that they are... coders. They believe that Bootstrap is CSS and jQuery is JavaScript. The only thing that keeps this all in perspective for me is that I still have a teenager at home .

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Nov 02, 2017 2
LEGEND ,
Nov 02, 2017

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pziecina  wrote

Please don't mention Brackets AL, the more i use it the more I dislike it.

Whats wrong with Brackets, ok it's not perfect but its better than Sublime, Atom and maybe even VC Code in my view. It leaves a lot to be desired - insists you use the inbuilt live browser view which is completely unreal. An editor should at least give you the option to choose what browser you want to view your page in because some of us coders  don't  want crap injected into our page code, which Brackets is a master at. There is supposed to be a browser plugin but it's never worked for me.

It does have its nice points though like css quick edit, its unfussy which I like in a product. It obviously lacks things like a decent snippets panel.  I know it has some json plugin crap and some other developer has attempted to produce a better snippet panels but all I  need is a simple option to float a snippets panel please not something that you have to keep popping up and down from the foot of UI window browser. File managemnt is non existent but it is in Sublime, Atom and VC Code.

Its a good start but I haven't seen much progess so I dont want to invest much time in an editor that I think Adobe wont give over much time to developing because it makes them no money. Make it better, include the simple features I mentioned update the UI a bit and charge for it and keep developing it. I prefer it to DW.

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Nov 02, 2017 0
LEGEND ,
Nov 02, 2017

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ALsp  wrote

pziecina   wrote

Please don't mention Brackets AL, the more i use it the more I dislike it.

Sorry. But here's the thing...

People who want to be coders might listen to Adobe and install B_ _ _k_ _ s. And they might believe that this is what a professional code editor is. But since they are not really code experts yet, they haven't used a good code editor, such as Visual Studio, Aptana, or several of the other decent ones. This is why the nature of the typical Dreamweaver user is so hard to pin down. They sometimes, perhaps often, believe what Adobe tells them, what this forum tells them. They haven't seen the light yet . They tend also to believe that Bootstrap is the cat's meow. Ah, kids. And related to all that, they believe that when Google leads them to a cool image gallery or menu, and they copy the code and paste it inside their Dreamweaver page, that they are... coders. They believe that Bootstrap is CSS and jQuery is JavaScript. The only thing that keeps this all in perspective for me is that I still have a teenager at home .

Aptana is dead though aint it. The homepage hasn't seen any activity since 2014? Last news was Dec 2013.

It was one of the editors that I was going to give a try out in my many months recently testing just about every Mac compatible editor out there, but lack of any new development put me off.

Possibly the other problem there is not an editor which suits the middle tier of developer like myself - you either have something like DW not good enough or something like  Storm - too complex. Whilst I like Storm it doesn't feel nice for the kind of developemnt I do. I dont particullary need heavy debuggers for the small amount of php, javascript, jquery that I write.

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LEGEND ,
Nov 02, 2017

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Don't forget Os, when I and AL are talking about VS we are talking about VS Pro, not VS code, which is like comparing a 1960's ford cortina with a 2017 BMW M series.

Yes, i do use VS Pro for my actual work, and i am certainly not a typical Dw user. What i did use Dw for though was for a very important part of my workflow, as it was ideal for creating 'quick and dirty' concepts, that i could then show to everyone and we could decide if an idea was worth taking forward and developing further.

Why did i do it that way, simple, Dw was so easy to use.

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Nov 02, 2017 0
LEGEND ,
Nov 02, 2017

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pziecina  wrote

Don't forget Os, when I and AL are talking about VS we are talking about VS Pro, not VS code, which is like comparing a 1960's ford cortina

Whats wrong with a 1960s Ford Cortina - that's a classic car, maybe a Robin Reliant:

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/02/a3/e5/02a3e5b262213e1d695c5d0e6f477ea7.jpg

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Nov 02, 2017 1
Adobe Community Professional ,
Nov 03, 2017

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Sorry for the delays, I have much to run these days… and I’m not very often just in front of a network… so…

Do I like Extensions, or does learning code is better… I can’t say one or the other… it doesn’t work that way in my mind… I mean… saying this comparison, will mean that extensions are made for non coders… and I do’nt think it that way… I think that as I said in my previous message,

« … The main question are, Does the use of extension is time saving for this project, does the extension really meets the goals expectations, does the extension cost remains financially acceptable, does the use of the extension offers real interoperability with the rest of the team or with their own skills … »

Then, does learning code is better… ?.... funny ?.... what do we talk about… ? we talk about creating web site, so… what creating a web site does mean today ?.... I also answer that in my previous message

« … Moreover, today, the notion of a website itself can be completely different. Depending on whether one are trying to present a newsletter, or building a one page site full of animation, parallax effects, transitions.... , or having a hard dynamic website 'à la papa' ('old fashion look and feel') completely PHP/SQL based, or a web application that meets innovative needs relying on 'modern' conception, or being distributed as a complete integrated mobile consultation... »

So now who are we ?

are we some one that create a web sites for a leaving ? or are we someone whose is maintaining a unique website for his own purpose… ???

if we are on the second case… it is completly different that if we are in the first case… so if we are in the first case… learning code is not better… it is a NEED.

Do I think that DW should include extension… ??? not at all….

DW should propose nativaly all the tools and features to have under mouse and keyboard all the WhatWG/ MozDev + ECMA (editor, tooltip/autocomplete, debuger and linter, canIuse reflector…) for the all webstandards. and propose that in WYSIWYG IDE UI.

The extension should , then, fill the GAP in a real User Friendly Interface for those of us that aren’t coders. (including Coders profile… see my previous sentance)…

Remember the SB… always propose fields to manually enter specific query string, regular expression, and so on…)

Now, does DW should be more professional web development tool…. ????

One word……

Definitly

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Nov 03, 2017 0
Adobe Community Professional ,
Nov 03, 2017

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I've really started to work in the earlier age with the tools proposed by Nick (Bradburry)... I mean HomeSite and TopStyle... just before Jeremy (Allaire) bought them... and quickly became included in Macromedia tool set...

some in CAB, always refers to the old CSS panel... ??? funny... that was the one under Allaire licence...

I remember that it was before the first time of Drumbeat,

That's true that it was an other time ?

and as Paula, I've starting to use DW, because most of my clients, partners, or teams that I was involved in, was finding this UI friendly and easy to use.... so that way we was able to share the same tool, either if I had set in DW the round trip code editor for HTML with HomeSite, and for CSS with TopStyle...

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Nov 03, 2017 0
LEGEND ,
Nov 03, 2017

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https://forums.adobe.com/people/B+i+r+n+o+u  wrote

we talk about creating web site, so… what creating a web site does mean today ?....

Finding as many extensions and plugins as you possibly can if you are a DW user, obviously,  goes without saying - pray that nothing goes wrong because you won't have the knowledge to sort it out - happy days!

Mean while in a land, not too far away, everything is looking good.

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Nov 03, 2017 1
Adobe Community Professional ,
Nov 03, 2017

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je vais écrire en français, car au plus je lis les réponses, au moins je comprends le sens de cette conversation... Enregistrer

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Nov 03, 2017 1
LEGEND ,
Nov 03, 2017

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I know exactly how you feel Birnou

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Nov 03, 2017 0
LEGEND ,
Nov 03, 2017

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pziecina  wrote

I know exactly how you feel Birnou

Must be darn easy these days to teach web design:

Day 1: (9.00am - 5.30pm)

Responsive Web Design Extensions, Apps, Add-ons and Plugins for Dreamweaver

Day 2: (9.00am - 5.30pm)

https://www.dmxzone.com/

Day 3: (9.00am - 9.05am)

http://learningforlife.fsu.edu/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/certificateSampleDk.jpg

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Nov 03, 2017 1
Mentor ,
Nov 03, 2017

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osgood_  wrote

pziecina   wrote

I know exactly how you feel Birnou

Must be darn easy these days to teach web design:

Day 1: (9.00am - 5.30pm)

Responsive Web Design Extensions, Apps, Add-ons and Plugins for Dreamweaver

Day 2: (9.00am - 5.30pm)

https://www.dmxzone.com/

Day 3: (9.00am - 9.05am)

http://learningforlife.fsu.edu/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/certificateSampleDk.jpg

I'm not sure what you are trying to say, but thanks for the link. We provide not only the tools to make Dreamweaver users more productive, we provide one-on-one telephone support and teaching. Perhaps this is not important to someone like you, but it is something Adobe is unable to provide. So it does have value. Your obsession with coding is, I believe a bit over the top, and perhaps not relevant to today's extensions, and this is where I disagree with your opinions. Our page layout tools, for example, are as valuable to coders as they are to beginners. We have widgets with features that I believe you could not program yourself... but if you understand JavaScript, you might learn some things. It's kind of like following a tune. Sometimes you need the first few notes to get you going.

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LEGEND ,
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ALsp  wrote

I'm not sure what you are trying to say, but thanks for the link. We provide not only the tools to make Dreamweaver users more productive, we provide one-on-one telephone support and teaching. Perhaps this is not important to someone like you, but it is something Adobe is unable to provide. So it does have value. Your obsession with coding is, I believe a bit over the top, and perhaps not relevant to today's extensions, and this is where I disagree with your opinions. Our page layout tools, for example, are as valuable to coders as they are to beginners. We have widgets with features that I believe you could not program yourself... but if you understand JavaScript, you might learn some things. It's kind of like following a tune. Sometimes you need the first few notes to get you going.

All I was trying to imply in a kind of British sense of humour - all you need to do is bag a few extensions and plugins, job done, knock out a few business cards and it's as easy as that, you're now a fully qualified knowledgeable web developer capable of .............

I make no apology for my 'obsession' with coding, it's what seperates the wheat from the chaff. You must surely understand that, otherwise you would not be capable of doing what you produce, or don't you know any coding? Are you using an extension to build your extensions or is there actually some kind of skilled coding involved? I believe so.

I think your whole world revolves around extensions and little else maybe, not every thing is build with an extension. Where does that leaves those people who are reliant on extensions, especially those wishing to advance in the field of web development, when it comes to trouble-shooting even some simple coding?

As I've said before I would not expect the kind of people that I think extenisons are mainly aimed at to be able to code or even want to code but for the likes of a few people around here who put themselves forward as 'developers' yet rely on extensions/frameworks it's unbelievable, but then again allowances have to be made it is the DW forum, I accept that.

No problem about the link. If I can help those that need an extension get to the right place that's all good as we'll, of course there's a market place for the right kind of person, who is not interested in coding or trying to understand how it all works.

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Nov 03, 2017 0
Mentor ,
Nov 03, 2017

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osgood_  wrote

ALsp   wrote

I'm not sure what you are trying to say, but thanks for the link. We provide not only the tools to make Dreamweaver users more productive, we provide one-on-one telephone support and teaching. Perhaps this is not important to someone like you, but it is something Adobe is unable to provide. So it does have value. Your obsession with coding is, I believe a bit over the top, and perhaps not relevant to today's extensions, and this is where I disagree with your opinions. Our page layout tools, for example, are as valuable to coders as they are to beginners. We have widgets with features that I believe you could not program yourself... but if you understand JavaScript, you might learn some things. It's kind of like following a tune. Sometimes you need the first few notes to get you going.

All I was trying to imply in a kind of British sense of humour - all you need to do is bag a few extensions and plugins, job done, knock out a few business cards and it's as easy as that, you're now a fully qualified knowledgeable web developer capable of .............

I make no apology for my 'obsession' with coding, it's what seperates the wheat from the chaff. You must surely understand that, otherwise you would not be capable of doing what you produce, or don't you know any coding? Are you using an extension to build your extensions or is there actually some kind of skilled coding involved? I believe so.

I think your whole world revolves around extensions and little else maybe, not every thing is build with an extension. Where does that leaves those people who are reliant on extensions, especially those wishing to advance in the field of web development, when it comes to trouble-shooting even some simple coding?

As I've said before I would not expect the kind of people that I think extenisons are mainly aimed at to be able to code or even want to code but for the likes of a few people around here who put themselves forward as 'developers' yet rely on extensions/frameworks it's unbelievable, but then again allowances have to be made it is the DW forum, I accept that.

No problem about the link. If I can help those that need an extension get to the right place that's all good as we'll, of course there's a market place for the right kind of person, who is not interested in coding or trying to understand how it all works.

Nope. We know nothing about coding or programming. We just buy extensions that make extensions. Seriously? If I were a teenager, I would definitely be stringing together a bunch of OMGs

We have many, many customers who us Harmony, for instance... who are advanced CSS authors, capable of using Flex to lay out a page. You know... the ones you just insulted They use Harmony, because it makes there work easier and faster, while still  providing a means of quickly assigning custom user classes, or IDs, to take the tool way beyond what a non-coder would be able to.

Your arguments are not strong, Osgood. They really aren't.

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