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CSS Grid and Variables

New Here ,
Feb 26, 2018

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So to be clear, I have been a loyal supporter of DW since before Adobe acquired it from Macromedia, I owned GoLive and used it for many years, but I have to say I am very disappointed in the support we have today for CSS Grid and Variables - two things that are destined to make design for the web a shit ton easier... Adobe is way behind the curve on these... since Oct of 2017 this, put simply, has been the only way to design for the web. Nothing else makes sense. I believe I am moving to MS VS Code, because it is even better than Brackets in responding to the evolution of the web. But I want the powers that be at Adobe to know why they have lost my loyalty and my money... and to those struggling designers out there that wish to keep up. The clear choice is VS Studio Code - it is FREE, it works and it supports the latest algorithms published by the leading web browsers... you can see changes in your advanced CSS in real time... no preprocessors, no git, no bs.

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CSS Grid and Variables

New Here ,
Feb 26, 2018

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So to be clear, I have been a loyal supporter of DW since before Adobe acquired it from Macromedia, I owned GoLive and used it for many years, but I have to say I am very disappointed in the support we have today for CSS Grid and Variables - two things that are destined to make design for the web a shit ton easier... Adobe is way behind the curve on these... since Oct of 2017 this, put simply, has been the only way to design for the web. Nothing else makes sense. I believe I am moving to MS VS Code, because it is even better than Brackets in responding to the evolution of the web. But I want the powers that be at Adobe to know why they have lost my loyalty and my money... and to those struggling designers out there that wish to keep up. The clear choice is VS Studio Code - it is FREE, it works and it supports the latest algorithms published by the leading web browsers... you can see changes in your advanced CSS in real time... no preprocessors, no git, no bs.

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Feb 26, 2018 0
Mentor ,
Feb 26, 2018

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Hi mtartist

Another alternative, which I'm not sure if you have looked at it is Pinegrow. It supports CSS Grid & Variables and so much more, through its - visual tools, direct code and live in app preview.

Here is a basic overview of Pinegrow and CSS Grid aspect:

https://medium.com/@mattront/how-to-learn-css-grid-with-pinegrow-e865ece2e137

It might be something worth looking into, based upon the things you wrote in your post. It also works directly with Atom, and can be used with various other editors also.

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Feb 26, 2018 0
LEGEND ,
Feb 26, 2018

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mtartist  wrote

The clear choice is VS Studio Code - it is FREE, it works and it supports the latest algorithms published by the leading web browsers... you can see changes in your advanced CSS in real time... no preprocessors, no git, no bs.

Depends how you look at things VS Code has no intuitive snippets creator or snippets panel, it has no file management......does that make it way behind? Funny this editors 'wars' none really cut it - they all have something desirable missing. Its a case of picking the best from a really, really bad bunch.

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Feb 26, 2018 1
LEGEND ,
Feb 26, 2018

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osgood_  wrote

Depends how you look at things VS Code has no intuitive snippets creator or snippets panel, it has no file management......does that make it way behind?

VS Code does have some projects managment features via extensions, that offer some of Dw's file managment features, (file paths, etc) and extensions for snippets but no panel.

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Feb 26, 2018 0
LEGEND ,
Feb 26, 2018

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pziecina  wrote

osgood_   wrote

Depends how you look at things VS Code has no intuitive snippets creator or snippets panel, it has no file management......does that make it way behind?

VS Code does have some projects managment features via extensions, that offer some of Dw's file managment features, (file paths, etc) and extensions for snippets but no panel.

Can you remember what these extensions are called because I havent come across them?

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Feb 26, 2018 0
LEGEND ,
Feb 26, 2018

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Feb 26, 2018 0
LEGEND ,
Feb 26, 2018

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pziecina  wrote

https://code.visualstudio.com/docs/editor/multi-root-workspaces

https://code.visualstudio.com/docs/editor/userdefinedsnippets

I know about the snippets workflow, its disgusting as is the one in Atom. Who really wants to store all their snippets in a single json file and more so who wants to spend time formating a json file to store those snippets, can anyone really remember what abbr key they allocated to ALL their snippets. Have you ever tried to create a snippet in Atom, one single comma out of place and the whole json file fails....sorry but this is a completley ridiculous workflow for any editor even a free one.........which is why DW does indeed have some useful features.

Any editor that doesnt have a snippet panel and way of creating snippets easily has failed in my view. I dont even go there only to pull it to pieces.

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Feb 26, 2018 0
LEGEND ,
Feb 26, 2018

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Have you checked out the web dev extensions?

For the OP -

https://marketplace.visualstudio.com/items?itemName=pavel.css-vars-fallback

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Feb 26, 2018 0
LEGEND ,
Feb 26, 2018

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pziecina  wrote

Have you checked out the web dev extensions?

For the OP -

https://marketplace.visualstudio.com/items?itemName=pavel.css-vars-fallback

Once the basics are in place I will consider what else an editor has to offer VC Code doesnt have the basics in my opinion.

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Feb 26, 2018 0
LEGEND ,
Feb 26, 2018

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osgood_  wrote

Once the basics are in place I will consider what else an editor has to offer VC Code doesnt have the basics in my opinion.

why do you think I use VS Pro -

https://docs.microsoft.com/en-gb/visualstudio/ide/code-snippets

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Feb 26, 2018 0
LEGEND ,
Feb 26, 2018

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pziecina  wrote

osgood_   wrote

Once the basics are in place I will consider what else an editor has to offer VC Code doesnt have the basics in my opinion.

why do you think I use VS Pro -

https://docs.microsoft.com/en-gb/visualstudio/ide/code-snippets

Exactly. I have zero idea why the developers of Atom, VC Code (Free), Sublime and to a certain extent Brackets, although that does have a couple of poor snippets extensions, never thought it a key feature to have when they where developing the software. Are the majority all software developers really that dumb in terms of knowing what the user of their products require as a basic starting point? Snippet panels in web-editors have been around since year dot, it cant be that difficult to write one and deploy it in a logical, sensible and easy to create workflow. Its not many many web-editor have excellent snippet panel but they are crap at everything else!

My brain is in meltdown living in this dam world - no-one but no-one has any common sense these days!

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Feb 26, 2018 0
LEGEND ,
Feb 26, 2018

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A lot of the cheaper and free code editors are not meant for the professional, and vs code especially is the 'little brother' of VS Pro, with only basic functionality compared to its big brother. Its probably a marketing ploy, in that once one discovers what is missing the user will buy VS Pro.

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Feb 26, 2018 0
LEGEND ,
Feb 26, 2018

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pziecina  wrote

A lot of the cheaper and free code editors are not meant for the professional, and vs code especially is the 'little brother' of VS Pro, with only basic functionality compared to its big brother. Its probably a marketing ploy, in that once one discovers what is missing the user will buy VS Pro.

Ok well Im still waiting..........its going to be a long wait I feel.

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Feb 26, 2018 0
Mentor ,
Feb 28, 2018

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pziecina  wrote

A lot of the cheaper and free code editors are not meant for the professional

osgood_  wrote

Ok well Im still waiting..........its going to be a long wait I feel.

No offense intended here people, I hesitated to post but I strongly feel comments such as these are getting rather silly and without merit.

So I guess all the people who can hand code various flavors of: HTML/CSS/JS/PHP/SASS/LESS/Stylus/PUG/Emmet/Typescript/Coffeescript/Babel/Angular/React/Vue / ( insert endless list here ) directly in Browser Dev Tools, or JSBin, JSFiddle, Codepen, StackExchange, BitBucket, Gist / Github , etc., ( another endless list here ) or any Free IDE Code Editor should not be deemed professional due to what they are typing in being “Free” ? The notion that a person needs to pay for a code editor or instead use something specific tool, to be “professional” really has no merit and is rather insulting to the industry as a whole, especially developers.

It’s interesting that some mythical editor with every feature desired by every developer does not currently exist. Yet its absence has not slowed the industry or individuals from moving forward. Fortunately adaptability and moving ahead regardless of constraints is why the web is where it is today. Imagine if everyone was waiting around for some special IDE, or for that matter 100% browser support to move ahead, etc.,

There is no need for anyone to wait on special features or mythical IDE’s, the industry as a whole proves that daily. Not to mention evolves too fast to sit around waiting for special requirements in an editor. If people get tripped up so easily on which IDE, Pre-Processor, ( another endless list could go here ) etc., then how professional are they, that they are so restricted and so easily hindered in their chosen field ? People simply need to learn markup, how to code, etc., start developing and never stop learning. Any tools or processes are the low hanging fruit in that overall equation. Knowledge and comprehension are a much bigger part of professionalism than any specific tool. Anyone can learn an IDE, but sadly most people fail to understand the underlying methodologies and standards.

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Feb 28, 2018 2
LEGEND ,
Mar 01, 2018

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W_J_T  wrote

pziecina   wrote

A lot of the cheaper and free code editors are not meant for the professional

osgood_   wrote

Ok well Im still waiting..........its going to be a long wait I feel.

No offense intended here people, I hesitated to post but I strongly feel comments such as these are getting rather silly and without merit.

So I guess all the people who can hand code various flavors of: HTML/CSS/JS/PHP/SASS/LESS/Stylus/PUG/Emmet/Typescript/Coffeescript/Babel/Angular/React/Vu e / ( insert endless list here ) directly in Browser Dev Tools, or JSBin, JSFiddle, Codepen, StackExchange, BitBucket, Gist / Github , etc., ( another endless list here ) or any Free IDE Code Editor should not be deemed professional due to what they are typing in being “Free” ? The notion that a person needs to pay for a code editor or instead use something specific tool, to be “professional” really has no merit and is rather insulting to the industry as a whole, especially developers.

It’s interesting that some mythical editor with every feature desired by every developer does not currently exist. Yet its absence has not slowed the industry or individuals from moving forward. Fortunately adaptability and moving ahead regardless of constraints is why the web is where it is today. Imagine if everyone was waiting around for some special IDE, or for that matter 100% browser support to move ahead, etc.,

There is no need for anyone to wait on special features or mythical IDE’s, the industry as a whole proves that daily. Not to mention evolves too fast to sit around waiting for special requirements in an editor. If people get tripped up so easily on which IDE, Pre-Processor, ( another endless list could go here ) etc., then how professional are they, that they are so restricted and so easily hindered in their chosen field ? People simply need to learn markup, how to code, etc., start developing and never stop learning. Any tools or processes are the low hanging fruit in that overall equation. Knowledge and comprehension are a much bigger part of professionalism than any specific tool. Anyone can learn an IDE, but sadly most people fail to understand the underlying methodologies and standards.

Its whats desired by the individual. What is frustrating is there are some reasonably good editors available apart from a couple of BIG missing components.

I mean even you can't be suggesing that the snippets workflow in Atom is highly desirable, open a json file, format the snippet taking great care to insert each element on individual lines, include some proprietory json coding otherwise it will kill the file stone dead..........meanwhile in the real world like Netbeans you just select the code in the editor and drag it to the snippets panel, name the snippet, job done, organise into folders. Similarly that's what you do in other programs 7/8 years old. I don't want to be coding snippets every time I need to produce one.

Yes I know you can get seperate progams for storing snippets but personally I prefer to limit the number of programs I need to produce a website, hence I have issues using stuff like Prepos, Codekit because it becomes extra to manage.

Coding is coding and I'm a coder but even I dont want to keep writing a connection string to a database or query a database or code a nav over and over again or modal window..........hence a snippets panel I believe is one of the must haves in any web-editor and one that you dont have to jump through hoops to manage and maintain.

Theres only one or two things missing for me but those are big on my agenda. The failure in most editors to prefix css without using sass or less or a third party workflow like grunt, gulp or prepros is just plain ignorant in this day and age. Coda, to a certain extent pre-fixed some css 5 years ago without resorting to all that garbage, so it can be done. Its just a shame the guys at Panic dropped the ball to concentrate on progamming games.

In the main I agree with you about learning to code BUT we still need a few 'home comforts' from time to time.

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Mar 01, 2018 0
LEGEND ,
Mar 01, 2018

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O/k, not much is happening at the moment, so lets have that discussion of just who is a professional web developer.

Billions of people drive motor vehicles of various types every day, but are all those people professional riders/drivers, no. Millions repair motor vehicles every day, are all those professional engineers, no. Millions also own their own buisnesses, sometimes employing hundreds or even thousands of other people, are they all professional managers, again no.

The fact that millions are programming websites or building apps, some even earning millions, also does not mean they are all professionals. In every walk of life there are people who do something for an hobby, just because they are interested, or even because someone asked them to do something. Yes, a few of those people will go on to become professionals in what they do, most may/will obtain one or more qualifications in their previous hobby, but many will not, and those people do not simply become professionals, even though they have all the tools, a place to carry out what is/was their 'hobby', or employ others.

Being a professional, covers much more than knowing how to code, (no matter how many languages one knows) it also covers knowing how the chosen professions industry, and that industries structure works. It can take a few years or many years to obtain this knowledge, and once that knowledge is obtained the learning does not stop there, it continues for life.

There is an interesting article about web developers getting involved in the process of building a site from the very beginning at -

http://alistapart.com/article/owning-the-role-of-the-front-end-developer

Until someone knows how the entire process works, and can do all that is required for their position, be that as an individual who is working alone, or a senior manager in a large company/organisation, (plus every position inbetween) they are not professionals. That does not mean they must work in all of those positions, be able to do every position or even be interested in learning every position, just that they should know what is involved and what those other positions do, even if there are seperate qualifications and requirerments for others involved.

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Mar 01, 2018 0
Mentor ,
Mar 01, 2018

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Thanks for taking time to write all that, but it honestly does not really address the point which I stated, or the point you originally made.

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Mar 01, 2018 0
LEGEND ,
Mar 01, 2018

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Actually it does, you are saying that just because someone can code or use xyz utilities, they are professionals, and any tool they use free or not, is for professionals.

All I pointed out in my original statement, is that many of those tools are not aimed at or used by web development professionals. A typical example of that is the Brackets code editor, as almost 50% of its users are Adobe CC subscribers. Then there is all the 'other' free or almost free editors, that are aimed at coders in general, (no matter what the language) not web developers in particular, or programmers. At best many, (if not most) are for users with a general interest, hobbyists, and students. Most of which will never ever develop websites/apps professionally.

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Mar 01, 2018 0
Mentor ,
Mar 01, 2018

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pziecina  wrote

Actually it does, you are saying that just because someone can code or use xyz utilities, they are professionals, and any tool they use free or not, is for professionals.

You may wish to re-read it again if that it what you gathered from it. In the meantime see your blanket statements continue.

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Mar 01, 2018 0
LEGEND ,
Mar 01, 2018

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W_J_T  wrote

In the meantime see your blanket statements continue.

They are not called blanket statements, but generalisations.

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Mar 01, 2018 0
Mentor ,
Mar 01, 2018

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You are too caught up with semantics, however the point remains un-addressed by your generalizations (as you prefer to refer to them).

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Mar 01, 2018 0
LEGEND ,
Mar 01, 2018

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Generalisation means to talk about something in general terms, without specifics.

Now, what was your question again ?

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Mar 01, 2018 0
Mentor ,
Mar 01, 2018

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If you wish to focus on definitive meanings, then you may wish to refresh you understanding of the term 'professional' from a dictionary also, and how that relates to your past statements.

Forrest ~ Trees

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Mar 01, 2018 2
Adobe Community Professional ,
Mar 01, 2018

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More importantly, what is understood under the term Professional Web Developer?


Ben

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Mar 01, 2018 0
LEGEND ,
Mar 01, 2018

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BenPleysier  wrote

More importantly, what is understood under the term Professional Web Developer?

Is someone earning their living who just codes a professional web developer, or a professional coder?

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Mar 01, 2018 0
Adobe Community Professional ,
Mar 01, 2018

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A coder is not necessarily bound to producing a web site for a living. Just ask ALsp​ when he codes his extensions for Dreamweaver. or ask Mozilla when they coded Firefox. A web developer, on the other hand, needs to produce a web site or he will not be making a living for long.

So I am none the wiser.  what is a Professional Web Developer. I can make an assumption about the Professional part, which is most likely associated with financial rewards, but I still do not have a definition of what constitutes a Web Developer.

One of my clients has told me to create a payment gateway for Credit Card Processing - Accept Credit Cards Anywhere | Square . Is that a task for a Web Developer? I have made similar payment gateways using PayPal which was easy compared to Square. So if a Professional Web Developer can set me on the right trail, I would be most grateful.


Ben

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Mar 01, 2018 0
LEGEND ,
Mar 01, 2018

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Web developer or web coder, there is no definitive answer as to the requirerments. We have even started to have people describe themselves as web development engineers.

All the articles defining the definitions on the web are aimed at course requirerments, (that they are offering), self gratifications of what the author does (so must be the definitive definition), or justifications for a particular skill set being asked for or offered.

Really it is all just a way of asking for more money , be that for employment, from the client or the software companies for the programs we use.

For me the term web developer covers the entire range of skills that one must know in order to produce a custom e-commerce site or application. With the back end techs being those that the web developer must use, and as defined by the sites server set-up. So you could be a web developer full stack, who knows front end, but specialises in developing with a C# + mssql back-end, or a php + mysql back-end, (add your own combination).

What the term web developer does not mean for me is, someone who just codes, just uses drag and drop, cannot work without frameworks or extensions, or someone who does not know how the entire process from initial site/app planning, to the production of the end site/app product works, (the going live part).

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Mar 01, 2018 0
LEGEND ,
Mar 01, 2018

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BenPleysier  wrote

So if a Professional Web Developer can set me on the right trail, I would be most grateful.

How much are you paying?

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Mar 01, 2018 0
Adobe Community Professional ,
Mar 01, 2018

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Nah! I've already put too much time into it, even had to install SSL on my local server to make the darn (d a r n) thing work for testing. Should be finished soon.


Ben

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Mar 01, 2018 0
LEGEND ,
Feb 26, 2018

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I've been using DW since shortly before Allaire was acquired by Macromedia.  I'm not exactly thrilled with a lot of things that Adobe does.  I was especially incensed when Adobe removed CF support from DW.  I have been very critical of Adobe in the past, and have a sneaking suspicion that I will for a while.

I have CC 13.1 on this workstation, and DW CS5.5 on my development system, and the difference is night and day - CS5.5 is way better than CC 13.1.  And don't get me started on CFB.  Whomever thought it was a good idea to remove any possibility of activating an application unless there is an internet connection should be fired.  Our development network is air-gapped from the internet, so we can't use CFB.  Which is oddly comforting because I've seen CFB3 and didn't like anything about it.  But that's another thread.

I can get extensions (I think?) to put the CF support back in to CC.  I know that can be done in Brackets, but I can't get used to the way Brackets previews in browser.

The point is, have you checked to see if there are any extensions that can accomplish what you are seeking?  Even though they removed the Extension Manager, I believe you can still install extensions.

V/r,

^ _ ^

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Feb 26, 2018 0
LEGEND ,
Feb 26, 2018

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The more I look at Dreamweaver, the pre-release/cab participants and the feature requests Dw has, the more I don't blame Dw for its lack of support for many features.

Requests for support of many old techs that now have less than a 1% market share, that also appear to have a higher than expected support base (20+ votes) compared to other feature requests, often simply because those using them have ignored what is happening in IT and web development, can only contribute to the Dw team ignoring what is happening, and explains in some ways the lack of support for modern W3C specs. This only illustrates that many Dw user are more interested in support for old methods and server techs that are being abandoned, than they are in the future.

Developers have been adopting flexbox for a number of years now, and css animations, but Dw has ignored this trend because many of those using Dw simply have no idea how to use Flexbox or css animations. That statement may be true for you, or not, but like everything else in Dw it shows how little the avarage Dw user thinks of anything beyond what has been available since IE6.

css grid layouts and variables have been discussed in this forum a number of times, but unless Bootstrap starts using both in the next version, (5) don't expect good support until then, and certainly don't expect anyone to take notice of anything said in this forum.

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Feb 26, 2018 0
Adobe Community Professional ,
Feb 26, 2018

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DW does not do everything I would like it to -- currently, no editor does.  But DW does many things very well and that's why I keep using it. 

Nancy O'Shea, ACP
Alt-Web Design & Publishing

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Feb 26, 2018 2
LEGEND ,
Feb 26, 2018

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https://forums.adobe.com/people/Nancy+OShea  wrote

DW does not do everything I would like it to -- currently, no editor does.  But DW does many things very well and that's why I keep using it. 

I'm not saying Dw is all bad, just that a lot of the complaints I read are about lack of support for features that users should have stopped using years ago, and many of the newer specs and requirerments are probably getting lost amongst the number of 'feature requests' to bring back support for those old techs.

That said, when the Dw team fails to know what is happening in web development, then Dw and its users are only going to suffer.

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Feb 26, 2018 0
Adobe Community Professional ,
Feb 26, 2018

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pziecina  wrote

I'm not saying Dw is all bad, just that a lot of the complaints I read are about lack of support for features that users should have stopped using years ago...

I hear you.  It's like some people never moved much beyond  ASP, APDivs and  HTML styles.  

Nancy O'Shea, ACP
Alt-Web Design & Publishing

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Feb 26, 2018 0
Adobe Community Professional ,
Mar 02, 2018

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since the beginning of this thread I have read carefully all the exchanges, and several times I almost dared to answer and then I did not ... but it's interesting to see the directions that each exchange took ..

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Mar 02, 2018 0
LEGEND ,
Mar 02, 2018

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https://forums.adobe.com/people/B+i+r+n+o+u  wrote

since the beginning of this thread I have read carefully all the exchanges, and several times I almost dared to answer and then I did not ... but it's interesting to see the directions that each exchange took ..

Go on Birnou, be a devil and join in .

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Mar 02, 2018 0
Adobe Community Professional ,
Mar 02, 2018

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just take a break, relax, listen lvem, or Silver Mt Zion, or Daturah, or Mono.. take a deap breath... enjoy vine, or bear... and share it with friends...

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Mar 02, 2018 0
LEGEND ,
Mar 02, 2018

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https://forums.adobe.com/people/B+i+r+n+o+u  wrote

just take a break, relax, listen lvem, or Silver Mt Zion, or Daturah, or Mono.. take a deap breath... enjoy vine, or bear... and share it with friends...

Retire in other words.........sounds better every time l hit a wall which is quite frequent these days plus lve been snowed in for 4 days, that cant be helping my mood............a whole 2cm has bought everything to a stand still in the uk.

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Mar 02, 2018 0
LEGEND ,
Mar 02, 2018

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osgood_  wrote

Retire in other words.........sounds better every time l hit a wall which is quite frequent these days plus lve been snowed in for 4 days, that cant be helping my mood............a whole 2cm has bought everything to a stand still in the uk.

Meanwhile 50 miles away, we have 80cm snow drifts, all the roads into the village blocked and the pub is running out of house wine, so one must buy it by the bottle.

Not all bad though, a local farmer passes my cottage every evening, with his tractor and snow plough, so getting to the pub is no problem. He even clears the road on his way home.

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Mar 02, 2018 0
Adobe Community Professional ,
Mar 02, 2018

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pziecina  wrote

...all the roads into the village blocked and the pub is running out of house wine, so one must buy it by the bottle.

I guess I can't complain much about the rain showers in California .

Nancy O'Shea, ACP
Alt-Web Design & Publishing

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Mar 02, 2018 1
LEGEND ,
Mar 02, 2018

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Way off topic, but both east and west coasts are getting blasted, right now.  New England might be getting a "cyclone bomb".

Glad I'm smack in the middle.

V/r,

^ _ ^

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/capital-weather-gang/wp/2018/03/02/updates-winds-are-howling-and...

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Mar 02, 2018 1
LEGEND ,
Mar 02, 2018

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WolfShade  wrote

Way off topic, ...

What was the topic?

Oh yes, css grid layouts and css variables.

css grid layouts are supported in code hints in Dw 2018, but that is it. As for css variables, maybe when the Dw managment and its advisors wake up to the modern web they will be included in code hints, but you can guarantee they will not include the creation of fallback css for none supporting browsers, because the same people who say Dw does not require a stand-alone css auto-prefixer, are now having to use utilities like pre-pros with Dw's bootstrap v4 implementation.

Don't ask Dw to include anything that is required for the modern web, part of the w3c specs, or requires more knowledge to use than someone who does not know how to code. If you do you will be ignored for the foreseeable future, after all you managed without them before, so why should they be included now, (or in my case since 9 years ago, when I first started filling feature requests for many of the still missing items).

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Mar 02, 2018 0
Adobe Community Professional ,
Apr 25, 2018

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You are so close - we gotta meet up one day soon...

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Apr 25, 2018 0