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CSS Grid or Bootstrap 4: What should I be learning now?

Adobe Community Professional ,
Mar 15, 2018

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Hopefully this topic doesn't get hijacked & locked like my other one did .   

[Locked] Bootstrap 3 vs 4: which should I use?

Web developers have a lot of choices between libraries, frameworks and core technologies these days.  But if we spend time learning every little thing out there, we won't have time to work on projects.  So what's a developer to do? 

Video blogger  Stefan Mischook had this to say (15 minutes).

CSS Grid Crash Course by Traversy Media (27 minutes).

Nancy

Nancy O'Shea, ACP
Alt-Web Design & Publishing

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CSS Grid or Bootstrap 4: What should I be learning now?

Adobe Community Professional ,
Mar 15, 2018

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Hopefully this topic doesn't get hijacked & locked like my other one did .   

[Locked] Bootstrap 3 vs 4: which should I use?

Web developers have a lot of choices between libraries, frameworks and core technologies these days.  But if we spend time learning every little thing out there, we won't have time to work on projects.  So what's a developer to do? 

Video blogger  Stefan Mischook had this to say (15 minutes).

CSS Grid Crash Course by Traversy Media (27 minutes).

Nancy

Nancy O'Shea, ACP
Alt-Web Design & Publishing

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Mar 15, 2018 0
Adobe Community Professional ,
Mar 15, 2018

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Thank you Nancy, it is one of the very few times that I have taken the time to watch videos that are longer than 6-7 mins. This says a lot for the content.

Video 1:

Basically agree with all that was said and when I apply the principles to myself, I need time saving workflows (read: frameworks).

Video 2:

Over the past year, I have dabbled around using CSS Grid (FireFox and Chrome under a flag) just to get used to it. My main approach was to use Grid for the layout of the page and Flex for individual elements that did not require two dimensions. This allowed me to create an easy fallback using Flex for those browsers that do not recognise Grid. An all Grid presentation made me very excited until I came back to reality, not everybody uses a Grid aware browser and may not for a few years to come.

Edit: Sorry forgot to say the most important part of my reply, which is to say, it depends on your personal situation. If you are like me, and have a tight schedule, you need to learn what is applicable today and not what will come in the future.


Ben

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Mar 15, 2018 0
Adobe Community Professional ,
Mar 15, 2018

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Let's just say I'm not rushing to migrate Bootstrap 3 projects over to Bootstrap 4 or CSS Grid yet.  But when the time comes, I'll be ready for it.

Nancy O'Shea, ACP
Alt-Web Design & Publishing

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Mar 15, 2018 0
LEGEND ,
Mar 16, 2018

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https://forums.adobe.com/people/Nancy+OShea  wrote

Hopefully this topic doesn't get hijacked & locked like my other one did .   

[Locked] Bootstrap 3 vs 4: which should I use?

Web developers have a lot of choices between libraries, frameworks and core technologies these days.  But if we spend time learning every little thing out there, we won't have time to work on projects.  So what's a developer to do? 

Personally right now i'd be learning grid BUT if you've been sucked into using Bootstrap for the last 5+ years you'll probably have to learn html/css first before you can even start learning grid. That's what frameworks do to you, they stifle your ability to adapt quickly to other concepts, which are much better.

Ask yourself this question - Will v4 be the very last version  of Bootstrap or will Bootsrtao attempt to bring some of grid into its core elements and if so how long will it be before it does that, 3/4 years. Bootstrap is not exactly renowned for being on-the-ball when it cones to emerging concepts. Flexbox was being used 2 years prior to it ever seeing the light of day in Bootstrap v4.

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Mar 16, 2018 0
Enthusiast ,
Mar 16, 2018

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If you are just starting with web development - then first learn HTML, CSS and some basic pure JavaScript.

When you are advanced enough you can choose whether to use floats, flexbox or css grid. Your decision might not be related to a framework at all.

If you are advanced enough,then you can take advantage of CSS frameworks, so you can speed up your workflow by using and including only the parts of the frameworks you need, customized it the way you like etc. - this is valid for me, this is also valid for many web developers i know, be they freelancers or working in big teams. A CSS framework is nothing more than a bunch of pre-defined classes which you re-use.

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Mar 16, 2018 0
LEGEND ,
Mar 16, 2018

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https://forums.adobe.com/people/Teodor+K  wrote

A CSS framework is nothing more than a bunch of pre-defined classes which you re-use.

True, then if youre a real web-developer you have to reverse enginner most of the properties of those classes to make your design look anywhere near acceptable and like what you require, pointless.

Just how difficult is it to put a responsive grid together......I guess for some considerably difficult...that's why these frameworks exist. Too bad too sad.

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Enthusiast ,
Mar 16, 2018

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As i explained many times before - there is no need for me to reinvent the wheel, when i have a ready to use grid - why should i go and invent my own? Just to put different class names doing the same thing?

The same way i've seen you many times offering solutions based on jquery, which can be done entirely in javascript - why are you doing that? Because you are used to how easier and faster it is to include the jquery library(framework) and call a function defined there, instead of writing it in pure javascript (no need of reinventing the wheel).

And that is something i am not doing ... i don't like using jquery for what can be done in pure javascript.

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LEGEND ,
Mar 16, 2018

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https://forums.adobe.com/people/Teodor+K  wrote

As i explained many times before - there is no need for me to reinvent the wheel, when i have a ready to use grid - why should i go and invent my own? Just to put different class names doing the same thing?

Youre using classes that actually dont do what you really want, unless your'e saying you never over-ride the Bootstrap default css styles?

https://forums.adobe.com/people/Teodor+K  wrote

The same way i've seen you many times offering solutions based on jquery, which can be done entirely in javascript - why are you doing that? Because you are used to how easier and faster it is to include the jquery library(framework) and call a function defined there, instead of writing it in pure javascript (no need of reinventing the wheel).

And that is something i am not doing ... i don't like using jquery for what can be done in pure javascript.

Everyone knows javascript is not written in a user friendly way. They have been trying to introduce more Jquery friendly approaches in the ES6 version of javascript so is it me at fault or the language?

I would have thought html and css is the core elements every web-developer needs/should know. Javascript/jquery, php etc are just icing on the cake. You cant compare using a library for implemneting additional functionality to something which is not optional.

Although I very much agree.........I would much prefer to write everything in pure javascript its a no brainer. At least Im doing something correct whereas others dont do anything correct or even make an attempt or even admit their inefficiencies

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Mar 16, 2018 0
Enthusiast ,
Mar 16, 2018

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osgood_  wrote

Youre using classes that actually dont do what you really want, unless your'e saying you never over-ride the Bootstrap default css styles?

I am using classes which do exactly what i want. How exactrly a class of "col" or "row" or "container" or "col-12" is not doing what i want - they are doing just what i want and i don't need to edit anything related to these classes.

osgood_  wrote

I would have thought html and css is the core elements every web-developer needs/should know. Javascript/jquery, php etc are just icing on the cake. You cant compare using a library for implemneting additional functionality to something which is not optional.

Your comment makes no sense.

I am comparing two frameworks:
1. bootstrap 4 (an HTML/CSS framework) written in HTML and CSS where i reuse classes in HTML

2. jquery (a javascript framework) written in javascript where you reuse functions in HTML

How is that different? Frameworks are all the same in one thing and it does not matter if it is a php framework, js framework, css framework - and it is defining functions/classes easy to reuse.

In my case i use a pre-defined class instead defining a whole CSS rule

In your case you include the whole jquery library just to select $('.yourClass') insitead of just using document.getElementsByClassName("yourClass") and not including anything on the page.

If you find a language "not-user friendly" that is entirely your problem. The same thing you can tell about C# or JAVA ...

This is my last post on this topic as i see it's going to go off-topic, because you know i am right about this and will start throwing some pointless arguments, as you obviously talk against everything you personally don't like.

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Mar 16, 2018 0
LEGEND ,
Mar 16, 2018

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https://forums.adobe.com/people/Teodor+K  wrote

osgood_   wrote

Youre using classes that actually dont do what you really want, unless your'e saying you never over-ride the Bootstrap default css styles?

I am using classes which do exactly what i want. How exactrly a class of "col" or "row" or "container" or "col-12" is not doing what i want - they are doing just what i want and i don't need to edit anything related to these classes.

Your just convieniantly using the example of the grid classes rather than the presenation classes for the html elements which come with default padding, margin, coloring, font size, positioning etc. If you use those, as most that use BS do, you will have to reverse engineer the properties, unless of course your the kind of web-developer where one size and one color fits all. Most of those developers will have excess css along with the overide css unless you carefully get rid of all the default styling, which no-one is going to do, because they either do not know how, or are too lazy to do so.

https://forums.adobe.com/people/Teodor+K  wrote

Your comment makes no sense.

I am comparing two frameworks:
1. bootstrap 4 (an HTML/CSS framework) written in HTML and CSS where i reuse classes in HTML

2. jquery (a javascript framework) written in javascript where you reuse functions in HTML

Makes perfect sense. Youre saying its ok NOT to know html and css (your core and base tools for producing a website) and yet in an eralier post you say you should know html and css. Javascript isnt strictly necessary, its nice to have - that's the difference.

https://forums.adobe.com/people/Teodor+K  wrote

If you find a language "not-user friendly" that is entirely your problem. The same thing you can tell about C# or JAVA ...

Obvioulsy not according to those that write javascript specs otherwise why would they be trying to make it more user friendly?

https://forums.adobe.com/people/Teodor+K  wrote

This is my last post on this topic as i see it's going to go off-topic, because you know i am right about this and will start throwing some pointless arguments, as you obviously talk against everything you personally don't like.

Another in denial 'Im always right paddy is thrown when they are challenged'. This folks is coming form a person who is not at all concerned about coding as his company is trying very badly to introduce a bit of software onto the scene which requires you to know no-coding.

I wont even address the poor coding Bootstrap produces because if your a WYSIWYG, clickerty, click kind of developer you would not give a hoot.

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Mar 16, 2018 0
Enthusiast ,
Mar 16, 2018

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Ok

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Mar 16, 2018 0
LEGEND ,
Mar 16, 2018

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I'm going to expand on your question Nancy, hope that is o/k.

What one uses all depends on who you work for, time allowed, financing and most importantly knowledge of specs plus browsers you must support.

If someone does not know the specs and/or is only just learning how to code, or does not know or want to know how to code. Then use a visual tool like Muse, unless it is a personal (learning) project.

If time is very limited and the deciding factor, use a framework, but don't just use a framework because you don't know how to do it any other way.

If you have time, know code and sufficient financing, a custom coded site done correctly will always be the best.

Now to grids vs bootstrap.

The site I worked on was one in which we said what browser version and devices could be used to access the site, (not as controlled in the training section). This meant that at the end of last year we could have used css grids without any problems, had we so desired. The type and size of the site also meant that a framework that delivered 'everthing in one go', (css and js) did not meet our requirerments.

Most large companies or organisations I know, tend not to use frameworks at all, though a few government sites who contract out the public facing section(s) will allow frameworks to be used, but will not have access to the locked areas from those pages.

If the question had been, custom flexbox vs bootstrap 4 -

Then I would go for custom flexbox, but not for someone using Dw.

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Mar 16, 2018 0
LEGEND ,
Mar 16, 2018

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We are getting away from Nancys question again.

I know my previous post was not strictly what Nancy was asking, but when it comes to Dw, Dw for me now screams "use bootstrap".

css grids, is still not well enough supported for the average coder to be able to use, unless they have been experimenting with it for some time, (just as flexbox was not). Fallback, even a flexbox based one requires the coder to think about the html structure before using, so templates are a no for most.

I think that will change in 1-2 years though, but only if enough tutorials about using css grids with fallback are produced. I also think if Dw is to change, (by some miracle) and support css grids then not just us but the Dw team must change its attitude to newer specs, and what is required.

Edit - I am NOT getting at you Ben, but at the attitude of those who are trying to hold web development back.

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