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Don't reinvent the wheel?

LEGEND ,
Apr 18, 2019

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We are back into the holiday period, so I thought a little discussion might help to break the monotony.

in another discussion I have posted in, (not in this forum) I have read a post that says, "do not try to re-invent the wheel", but should that not be, "do not try to re-invent conventions" especially when it comes to the web?

We all know that a main menu should be close to the top of the page, (no matter how it works), but is the way a menu is presented so well established that the current method cannot be improved, or should not be changed? This applies to just about everything on the web, after all is it possible that within 30 years of the invention of the www, everything is 'fixed' and the best ways to present something to the user should not and cannot be re-thought or improved upon?

The same question as above can be applied to anything, (component, feature, anything) when it comes to web site/app design/development.

This is not a question of how to do something, but one of, 'is that it'. Web sites/app designers, (and developers) are being told not to reinvent the wheel, should they be even allowed to think that they should not, or should they be encoraged to look at things differently?

Don't forget, this is not a discussion about how to do something, (or even if it is possible) but of how a web site/app, (complete site or just components) is presented to the end user, and if what many think of as the only way to present a site/app now, is really the final and best solution.

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Don't reinvent the wheel?

LEGEND ,
Apr 18, 2019

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We are back into the holiday period, so I thought a little discussion might help to break the monotony.

in another discussion I have posted in, (not in this forum) I have read a post that says, "do not try to re-invent the wheel", but should that not be, "do not try to re-invent conventions" especially when it comes to the web?

We all know that a main menu should be close to the top of the page, (no matter how it works), but is the way a menu is presented so well established that the current method cannot be improved, or should not be changed? This applies to just about everything on the web, after all is it possible that within 30 years of the invention of the www, everything is 'fixed' and the best ways to present something to the user should not and cannot be re-thought or improved upon?

The same question as above can be applied to anything, (component, feature, anything) when it comes to web site/app design/development.

This is not a question of how to do something, but one of, 'is that it'. Web sites/app designers, (and developers) are being told not to reinvent the wheel, should they be even allowed to think that they should not, or should they be encoraged to look at things differently?

Don't forget, this is not a discussion about how to do something, (or even if it is possible) but of how a web site/app, (complete site or just components) is presented to the end user, and if what many think of as the only way to present a site/app now, is really the final and best solution.

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Apr 18, 2019 0
Adobe Community Professional ,
Apr 18, 2019

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Hello, Paula,

the fact is that today the web, in itself, no longer means anything specific.

a website in 2019 no longer has anything to do with a website from 1996... and certainly has nothing to do with a website from 2036

Moreover, what are we talking about in terms of interface, usability, accessibility...?

the screens are becoming more democratic and diversified in a non-homogeneous way, in terms of size, shape (ratio L x W), usability... and this is not to mention that the interfaces in plan base (2d) should include those that emerge in three dimensions, or concerning the Internet of things... and all of things... shoes are different than glasses, themselves differents than car... washingmchine, fridge, watches... and so on... (by the way, does interface must also be completed by arduino ... or in a largest way raspberry )

to answer your question (if I understood it well) yes I strongly think that web developers must innovate, explore, propose, test... in short... create interfaces in perpetual motion, continually question themselves, transgress... and especially dare to make mistakes

but perhaps as often I'm beside your original question

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Apr 18, 2019 1
LEGEND ,
Apr 18, 2019

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Your very close to why I started this discussion Birnou.

My point was, (as you correctly think) that to tell designers/developers not to re-invent the wheel, is wrong. Unless we allow people to re-think the presentation to end users of all and everything on the web, then the web stagnates.

If anyone can think of any way to present anything to end users, even if it breaks with expert, (or anyone elses) pre-conceptions, or even if it CURRENTLY impossible it should be encoraged. Innovation is the future, especially of the web.

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Apr 18, 2019 0
Adobe Community Professional ,
Apr 18, 2019

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Do you use a Raspberry? Are you sensitive to electronics?

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Apr 18, 2019 0
Adobe Community Professional ,
Apr 18, 2019

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you have to take my question really at the first level:).... it's just a question to know if this discussion on HMIs can get out of hand on a more home automation aspect

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Apr 18, 2019 1
LEGEND ,
Apr 18, 2019

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https://forums.adobe.com/people/B+i+r+n+o+u  wrote

Do you use a Raspberry? Are you sensitive to electronics?

I built and programmed my 1st computer myself, and no I'm not going to say how long ago that was .

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Apr 18, 2019 0
Adobe Community Professional ,
Apr 18, 2019

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This is great news.

I think it is important (and certainly necessary... the future will tell) that user interfaces are already starting to move beyond the plan/plan framework of the usual devices... we need to mix them and make them talk to each other...

after all, people who have no keyboard or mouse dialogues with their eyes and webcams, a large part of voice commands are largely underused, movements in space are captured by styli or pressure on the tablets, acceleration and orientation direction allow augmented reality to couple interfaces with commands....

let's open up to components that are no longer just dynamic/static interface elements... but electronic components to be distributed (there was one so much we exchanged our DLLs... why not now our PROM).... JavaScript and Python are not dead... yet...

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Apr 18, 2019 1
LEGEND ,
Apr 18, 2019

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Before retiring Birnou, we started to experiment with holographic interfaces, which are no longer the province of scientist, or technologists with lots of money to spend.

I would like to think that the work we did would become more widely available in the near future, but the one big thing I learned from those trials, was that what is regarded as science fiction by many, could quickly become everyday technology.

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Apr 18, 2019 0
LEGEND ,
Apr 18, 2019

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pziecina  wrote

We are back into the holiday period, so I thought a little discussion might help to break the monotony.

in another discussion I have posted in, (not in this forum) I have read a post that says, "do not try to re-invent the wheel", but should that not be, "do not try to re-invent conventions" especially when it comes to the web?

We all know that a main menu should be close to the top of the page, (no matter how it works), but is the way a menu is presented so well established that the current method cannot be improved, or should not be changed? This applies to just about everything on the web, after all is it possible that within 30 years of the invention of the www, everything is 'fixed' and the best ways to present something to the user should not and cannot be re-thought or improved upon?

The same question as above can be applied to anything, (component, feature, anything) when it comes to web site/app design/development.

This is not a question of how to do something, but one of, 'is that it'. Web sites/app designers, (and developers) are being told not to reinvent the wheel, should they be even allowed to think that they should not, or should they be encoraged to look at things differently?

Don't forget, this is not a discussion about how to do something, (or even if it is possible) but of how a web site/app, (complete site or just components) is presented to the end user, and if what many think of as the only way to present a site/app now, is really the final and best solution.

I think responsive changed the way developers looked at presentation and how to design for various screens. I'm thinking its going to take something big like that to fuel inject any near future different/innovative ways to approach presenting a web-site. Grid is too young to say if that will provide a welcome deviation or have any impact at all from what has over the last 6 years become quite bland, pleasant to observe but the distinct feeling of Deja vu. It might just be the longer you are associated with web-development the more you become 'bored' with it.

Summers coming, get out in the garden on those long, lazy hot days or go sit by the river with an ice-cream and forget web-development. Some day you have to let it go and move on to more enjoyable pastimes.

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Apr 18, 2019 1
LEGEND ,
Apr 18, 2019

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osgood_  wrote

Summers coming, get out in the garden on those long, lazy hot days or go sit by the river with an ice-cream and forget web-development. Some day you have to let it go and move on to more enjoyable pastimes.

Already doing that, having good pensions makes one wonder about 'what next' though, (wine or beer ).

The discussion, is not about me doing anything though, more about telling those beginning their career in web design/development to think for themselves, and never to believe that any part of web design/development cannot be improved.

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Apr 18, 2019 0
Adobe Community Professional ,
Apr 18, 2019

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pziecina  a écrit

about 'what next' though, (wine or beer ).

if I may say so... give it a try... https://admin.plugwine.com/FicheVin/FichePdf/19308/fr

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Apr 18, 2019 0
LEGEND ,
Apr 18, 2019

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pziecina  wrote

The discussion, is not about me doing anything though, more about telling those beginning their career in web design/development to think for themselves, and never to believe that any part of web design/development cannot be improved.

I think anyone new to web-development, who is considering it as a career, comes with a wave of optimism which lasts for a few years, then it just becomes a means to an end really. Most are using workflows beacuse they are in a situation where they are told to use it, rather than want to use it. All these frameworks breed despondency and low ability to think for themselves. Frankly Im not surprised at the stagnation we are witnessing today, although as I say a contributing factor may well be nothing big has happened for a few years to force one to reasses their approach to solving problems.

I can produce a slideshow in 20 different ways - why should I re-invent the wheel -  well because it enlightens me greatly, often discovering workflows I would never have normally thought of if I had just used the wheel.

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Apr 18, 2019 0
LEGEND ,
Apr 18, 2019

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osgood_  wrote

I can produce a slideshow in 20 different ways - why should I re-invent the wheel -  well because it enlightens me greatly, often discovering workflows I would never have normally thought of if I had just used the wheel.

That is also part of not accepting the statement, "don't re-invent the wheel".

A lot of designers and developers forget that learning is a never ending process, and that person to person and project managment skills play just an important role in careers as design or coding skills.

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Apr 18, 2019 0
LEGEND ,
Apr 18, 2019

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pziecina  wrote

osgood_   wrote

I can produce a slideshow in 20 different ways - why should I re-invent the wheel -  well because it enlightens me greatly, often discovering workflows I would never have normally thought of if I had just used the wheel.

That is also part of not accepting the statement, "don't re-invent the wheel".

A lot of designers and developers forget that learning is a never ending process, and that person to person and project managment skills play just an important role in careers as design or coding skills.

When you push yourself its frightening how much you don't know. Many just like the 9-5 approach until they retire. I don't think being a web-developer is best suited unless you are prepared to put in endless, endless, endless (did I mention endless) hours of unpaid work/testing/learning and let face it that's not high on the agenda these days for most as there are better and more exciting ways to make a living. Would I do this again from scratch if I had the chance, no way.

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Apr 18, 2019 1
Adobe Community Professional ,
Apr 18, 2019

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Since we're discussing UIs,  my new microwave oven arrived without an owners manual.  The industry understood a need for standardization.  The UI is so homogenous across makes & models now that we no longer need a manual.  

OK.  So what does that say about  re-inventing the wheel every time you do something?    Change for the sake of change upsets people as evidenced time and time again when Adobe changes the UI on  [insert product here].   I don't think re-invention is  practical or productive unless the situation really calls for it.   Besides, re-invention is expensive.  One must plan accordingly.

Nancy O'Shea, ACP
Alt-Web Design & Publishing

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Apr 18, 2019 1
LEGEND ,
Apr 18, 2019

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Probably why the world seems to be overbloated with a majority of hopeless un-educated, mostly unstable idiots who arent prepared to do anything for themselves. Its just stagering how hard work and the desire to learn anything correctly or new has declined over the last few decades to be replaced by cheap short cuts which teach you absolutely nothing.

The reason you dont get a manual with your microwave  is due to financial cost cutting exercises to line the pockets of the greedy few who already have enough money but it becomes like a drug, cant get enough of the gold stuff.

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Apr 18, 2019 0
LEGEND ,
Apr 18, 2019

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https://forums.adobe.com/people/Nancy+OShea  wrote

Since we're discussing UIs,  my new microwave oven arrived without an owners manual.  The industry understood a need for standardization.  The UI is so homogenous across makes & models now that we no longer need a manual. 

Isn't that more a question of convention, and not functionality Nancy?

What I am trying to question is not conventions, but if by saying "do not re-invent the wheel" we are also inhibiting innovation in functionality?

We all know that the main site menu should be close to the top of the page, and on mobiles should be indicated by a 'hamburger' symbol, but that is convention. For many though by saying "do not reinvent the wheel", we are also saying do not reinvent the functionality.

If we never question if something can be done, (or should be done) differently, designers/developers are being told, "that's it, do it this way, as no other way works, or can work". Once we get to that stage, innovation on the web is finished.

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Apr 18, 2019 0
Adobe Community Professional ,
Apr 18, 2019

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Incidentally, the quote is no need to re-invent the wheel every single time.  That's a far cry from "don't re-invent."

Nancy O'Shea, ACP
Alt-Web Design & Publishing

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Apr 18, 2019 1
LEGEND ,
Apr 19, 2019

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pziecina  wrote

If we never question if something can be done, (or should be done) differently, designers/developers are being told, "that's it, do it this way, as no other way works, or can work". Once we get to that stage, innovation on the web is finished.

We are generally split into 3 camps, those that DO, those that DONT and those that just get on with their lives. You are never going to convince a leaver/remainer any differently...............get my point

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Apr 19, 2019 1
LEGEND ,
Apr 18, 2019

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https://forums.adobe.com/people/Nancy+OShea  wrote

OK.  So what does that say about  re-inventing the wheel every time you do something?    Change for the sake of change upsets people as evidenced time and time again when Adobe changes the UI on  [insert product here].   I don't think re-invention is  practical or productive unless the situation really calls for it.   Besides, re-invention is expensive.  One must plan accordingly.

I'm not saying that anyone should re-invent the wheel every time, I am saying that one should not think that the way somethink works/functions now is the only way that it should work/function.

Questioning if how something currently works/functions on the web, should be encouraged. A simple change of color or animation timing, size, (or whatever is normal) is common, but only makes every site/app that does so a mass produced product.

I'm thinking of those that wish to make web design/development a serious career, not those who mass produce sites/apps. Yes, I know the mass produced site/app is what many will produce, (if they wish to or not), but for those interested, innovation is what will make a difference between the run of the mill, and those who get more out of their career, (though there is no guarantee they of that).

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Adobe Community Professional ,
Apr 18, 2019

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pziecina  wrote

I am saying that one should not think that the way something works/functions now is the only way that it should work/function.

I realize I'm mixing apples and oranges here.  But take a look at this recent post from a Photoshop user

Stop messing with our workflow

After nearly 3 decades of doing it wrong, the Undo function in latest PS CC finally works as it should.  That's a change for the better, right?   Or is it?   Every change we make to the accepted way things work/function puts us at risk of alienating users. 

Nancy O'Shea, ACP
Alt-Web Design & Publishing

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Apr 18, 2019 1
LEGEND ,
Apr 19, 2019

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pziecina  wrote


I'm not saying that anyone should re-invent the wheel every time, I am saying that one should not think that the way somethink works/functions now is the only way that it should work/function.

Questioning if how something currently works/functions on the web, should be encouraged. A simple change of color or animation timing, size, (or whatever is normal) is common, but only makes every site/app that does so a mass produced product.

Some say its good to be different and unique. In that respect those that offer something different and unique are probably in a better position to attract those that also want to be different and unique and can afford it. Its all about cost of course, it all comes down to cost eventually, always does. Nothing to do with anything else.

I'm not pepared to give up any of my time to learn something new and waste engery trying to be innovative if I aint getting paid mentality. What's that old saying there aint 'no gain without a bit of pain'.

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Apr 19, 2019 1
LEGEND ,
Apr 19, 2019

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pziecina  wrote

I'm not saying that anyone should re-invent the wheel every time, I am saying that one should not think that the way somethink works/functions now is the only way that it should work/function.

I'm saying if you are seriously involved in web-development as a career then you should know how the majority of what you are using actually works. With these modern workflows/tools I'm not quite sure that is the case. Even seasoned developers who use build tools to deploy their websites usually admit they have zero idea what all the files are and if every single one is needed in their circumstance, pathetic. If you dont know what it is and what its for you should not be using it, yet they merrily go along with whats considered 'trendy'.

Im consistently correcting artwork from agencies, that are paid huge amounts of money, the people they employ may have some visual experience but most lack the technical experience to produce production ready artwork or they just dont give a XXXX any longer. I cant actually for the life of me work it out any longer, but something is not right in this day and age when someone can get a high paying job, yet lack basic abilities.

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Apr 19, 2019 1
Adobe Community Professional ,
Apr 20, 2019

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so finally, what was the aim of the thread ?

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Apr 20, 2019 0
LEGEND ,
Apr 20, 2019

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https://forums.adobe.com/people/B+i+r+n+o+u  wrote

so finally, what was the aim of the thread ?

To see if there is anyone interested in moving beyond run-of-the-mill functionality, or if people think that-is-it.

Or to put it another way, have we reached the end when it comes to how site/app features work.

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LEGEND ,
Apr 20, 2019

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pziecina  wrote

https://forums.adobe.com/people/B+i+r+n+o+u   wrote

so finally, what was the aim of the thread ?

To see if there is anyone interested in moving beyond run-of-the-mill functionality, or if people think that-is-it.

Or to put it another way, have we reached the end when it comes to how site/app features work.

Come back in 5-10 years time, if you're still around, things may change radically again, but not in the near future. I don't see it happening just yet.

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Apr 20, 2019 1
Adobe Community Professional ,
Apr 20, 2019

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so ?

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LEGEND ,
Apr 20, 2019

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https://forums.adobe.com/people/B+i+r+n+o+u  wrote

so ?

  1. I won't bother further.
  2. What is the point arguing against frameworks, especially those that have what end users currently require. Except for bug fixes in Dw, it is feature complete for current requirements.
  3. If people are waiting for the next technological leap, before any new functionality or features can be thought of, then all we require now is better documentation for users so they can customise components better.
  4. I'm going for a beer or glass of wine, (probably my main occupation for the next 5-10 years ).

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Apr 20, 2019 1