FAO: Osgood

[pziecina]

Hi Osgood​

Thought you would be interested in this article Os, as it shows it is not just you and me that think that many people overcomplicate web development and rely on frameworks too much.

http://alistapart.com/article/cult-of-the-complex

Everyone else, you are free to comment, but lets not get personal please .

[osgood_]

Zeld has always spoken a lot of sense but is an old has-been now, a bit like both of us, maybe wise old has-beens, with a great deal of experience, knowledge and common sense but it counts for nothing now. We are on a roller coaster ride into a generation of web-developers who are inadequate without the reliance, dependence on frameworks, extensions, point and shoot software.........just to build simple websites. To me it's all become pretty sad to be honest. I hate the profession now and glad I only have a couple of years left or can at least walk away when I feel the time has come...........but that will happen to the generation now who are using frameworks, something else will come along and they will suffer the same fate of course as the world moves on.

Its frightening what is happening because developers are the puppets of someone elses decisons. If they fail or become untenable the web-developer fails too or least has to start from square one and learn another process, another bit of software, another framework

Out of intrigue I tested out both Pinegrow and Wappler recently. What awful applications, both of them in my opinion for building websites. I expected that though as they are not aimed at the experienced coder/developer but someone who knows no different because they have never learned, are too lazy or just don't want to learn a better way.

Its funny really because if you look at the basic facts these 2 bits of software work no differently to the clicking and choosing which is what you would do in a program like Quark or InDesign and which I use on a daily basis, so why am I so against that workflow?

Because it's not the quickest, simplest or cleanest in terms of building websites. I know no different process when it comes to DTP because its always how the workflow was supposed to be from day 1 and I have nothing to compare it to. I can only say using a program like Pinegrow or Wappler would be a massive step in the wrong direction once you know how to code. I found trying to put anything into the work space in both applications hugely tedious and cumbersome, and as for the claim from the producers of Wappler you don't need to know any coding, well that is just hillarious.......the css panel is woefully inadequate unless you know what css attribute you want to use.

My only delight is most of the contributors in their forum seem to be old-boys over 65 just wanting something to fill their long boring days of retirement....its not professional or serious stuff these programs are being used for. I dont blame the producers for developing these kinds programs because there is a big amatuer market for them and that genrally means a nice source of income and the bottom line is money IS the route to ALL evil.

Getting back onto the subject of the article I also feel this new complexity is linked to shutting out predatory developers trying to take over websites. The more complex you can make the workflow by building the page purely from javascript, using something like Angular, the more difficult it becomes for another developer to follow the workflow easily or not at all. So whatever you can build in at the outset to make it that much more difficult for someone to 'steal' your clients is a huge reason for these new workflows creeping into todays websites, not that they do anything more or provide anything more in a lot of cases.

[ALsp]

Zeldman is a dinosaur, something I feel no guilt over saying because we're probably about the same age. The difference, though, is that he's more radical, and obviously has a problem with stupid white guys, which confuses the hell out of me because my olive complexion is ambiguous. Am I a stupid white guy or an Italian American hoodlum. But I digress...

What's really scary to me is not the casual user that uses frameworks and plugins. I've always expected that they would. In fact, that's a large part of my market. So, I'm sort of onboard with you, except I see more wrong with using open source frameworks and plugins, than I do using commercial extensions (like my company produces). The reason is simple. We are accountable and we will always work with a customer to answer his or her question, provide a solution, or teach them CSS. Whatever it takes. There's a big difference. But I digress again...

The most serious problem in all this is the fact that some very large organizations have scaled back their web development teams and are using open source frameworks and libraries. This actually appalls me, because markup and CSS are easy, and there are many out of work JavaScript programmers being squeezed out by jQuery (and the like) which has enabled incompetent scripters to write simple stubs (jQuery plugins) with a level of quality that is questionable at best. All of this means that this movement toward frameworks and libraries is killing off innovation, and I'm not sure what it means. Is the web quietly transitioning away from traditional web sites and towards hosted presences (Facebook, et al)? Are things moving toward apps? A combination of both? The fact is that most of today's major sites suck -- really, really, badly.

So, I mostly agree with you

[osgood_]

ALsp  wrote

So, I mostly agree with you

Yup, I see it from your point of view too Al. I know you produce top-draw extensions and are hugley passionate about what you do and the service you provide. In some respects most of us are victims to some extent, getting eaten alive by cheap, free, cheeful pile em high products/workflows.

[pziecina]

ALsp  wrote

The most serious problem in all this is the fact that some very large organizations have scaled back their web development teams and are using open source frameworks and libraries.

This actually interests me, mainly because in the 15 years I was in charge of an organisations web app development, I have just realized that I never even once looked at its public facing home page. It was always 'nothing to do with me', and I think it was actually put out to tender, so it may have been framework based for all I know, (and care).

I'm wondering if large organisations are not 'scaling back' but now operating a 2 tier development system when it comes to the web. One for what the public sees and uses, (based on whatever the 'winning' tender offered) and one for the organisation and it's users, (based on, I don't know what one would actually call it, but established web/server standards)?