Happy 25th Birthday - PHP (Belated)

[osgood-]

25 and still going strong, better and faster than ever, despite what you'll hear from 'green' newbies, who have been weaned on frameworks not real coding.

[Nancy OShea]

"25 and still going strong..."

It sure is and I can't imagine building a modern  site without it. 

Back when I was making hard choices about which direction to take, it was between PHP, ASP and ColdFusion.  So glad I picked PHP.

[BenPleysier]

Totally agree, PHP is still a strong server side web framework contender, although, lately I have been dabbling around with NodeJS.

It is the mention of 'frameworks' that confuses me in your post. PHP is a framework, yet you call it not real coding? Then what is real coding?

More info:

https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Learn/Server-side/First_steps/Web_frameworks

[osgood-]

Php is not a framework, its a scripting language much like javascript is not a framework its a scripting language. Frameworks or libraries  are those which provide the easy route in for developers who dont learn, or attempt to learn, the origins of a coding language properly, ie jQuery in the case of javascript, Laravel in the case of php, etc Developers these days rather than learn the core concepts of a language use frameworks/libraries and never really understand the principles and workflows behind what they are doing.

As for node.js well that's just a behemoth, in my opinion, as that uses a framework + some. The most popluar of which is express.js which in turn needs a lot of dependencies to do anything. Node.js is only an advantage if you are building apps and real time apps at that. There is zero advantage of using node.js to build websites such as you or I would build, unless you have sights on moving ino more complex app building. But new developers see node.js as being popular, so they jump on it and build everything in node.js rather than assess which solution would be better suited to what they are doing.  Personally I dont believe in making my life as a web developer much more difficult and complex than it needs be.

Its quite entertaining to see your mob, over at the other place jump on board, most without really knowing what node.js is. Its just been thrust upon them and they think this is the future, until they realize actually this is just making my life more complex, rather than making it easier and more managable. Its taken node.js 11 years, I think, to get even 1% of the market, php has currently about 80% of the marlet in 25 years. Node will have to go some to obtain that kind of popularity in the next 14 years, given deno.js, the new kid on the block, will now eat into its share of the market. I expect php to slowly decline over the years but so will node as other languages erode their market share.

[BenPleysier]

Php is not a framework, its a scripting language

That is an interesting statement.

In my previous life as an engineer, we would be tasked with building prototypes. If, as an example, a hole had to be drilled in a certain spot, it would be measured out by hand. In production, this would be too tedious, hence the introduction of a jig (fixture, frame) that would accurately place the position of the hole.

Web server code can be (and has been) written using the C language. However, for mere developers of our ilk, this would be too tedious, hence our use of a framework called PHP that was written in C to make life easier for us.

Frameworks or libraries  are those which provide the easy route in for developers who dont learn, or attempt to learn, the origins of a coding language properly

Despite having used the C language and its dialects in the past, I agree with that statement.

A web framework (WF) or web application framework (WAF) is a software framework that is designed to support the development of web applications including web services, web resources, and web APIs. Web frameworks provide a standard way to build and deploy web applications on the World Wide Web. Web frameworks aim to automate the overhead associated with common activities performed in web development. For example, many web frameworks provide libraries for database access, templating frameworks, and session management, and they often promote code reuse.[1] Although they often target development of dynamic web sites, they are also applicable to static websites.[2]

From <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web_framework>

[osgood-]

Its not actually a statement, its a fact - php is a scripting language.

php, when conceived was a new language concept which included everything to get the job done, still does. You dont have to 'require' any basic packages/modules like say express.js, vue.js and all the rest of them. It doesnt use any complex set up like package.json files, loads of folders and files being crudely appended to your work folder, the majority of which you have zero idea what they are for - Frameworks are build to supposedly simplify the process and use as a bolt on for the core language. However many, who grab directly for a framework, before learning the fundamentals of the core language they are using have little understanding of what it is they are doing, apart from well it works, until it doesnt. They have no idea if it is suitable or not, hence we had developers, myself included, deploying jQuery just to do the most basic of tasks that vanilla javascript could do with far less overhead. Personally I think its important to start at the begining, learn the correct way, then investgate what's available, without that fundamental experience you cannot make a subjective judgement.

[BenPleysier]

php is a scripting language

Agree.

php, when conceived was a new language concept which included everything to get the job done, still does.

Agree. That is why it is a framework specifically designed for web development. Any purist would use C  or lower language to do the job.

[osgood-]

I disagree, php is nothing whatsoever to do with C. You dont say I'm going to use C and deploy the php framework, C is a standalone language as is php as is python, both are progamming/scripting languages in their own right.

[BenPleysier]

Sorry, nothing to disagree about.

PHP development began in 1994 when Rasmus Lerdorf wrote several Common Gateway Interface (CGI) programs in C, which he used to maintain his personal homepage. He extended them to work with web forms and to communicate with databases, and called this implementation "Personal Home Page/Forms Interpreter" or PHP/FI.

[osgood-]

Also on that Wiki page:

Early PHP was not intended to be a new programming language, and grew organically, with Lerdorf noting in retrospect: "I don't know how to stop it, there was never any intent to write a programming language [...] I have absolutely no idea how to write a programming language, I just kept adding the next logical step on the way."[22] A development team began to form and, after months of work and beta testing, officially released PHP/FI 2 in November 1997.

Its NOT a framework for C as you are trying to convince yourself.

[BenPleysier]

Yep, contains all of the earmarks of a framework. Which programming language do you think PHP was written in?

[pziecina]

Sorry Ben, but using your interpretation of a framework, then C is a framework, simply because it has routines built in to convert it into binary code, (which is all a computer can understand anyway).

Even browsers are by your definition a framework, because they must interpretate html, css and js, plus they have js api's built in. Which make it easier for anyone coding a web page.

Even C++, when it is used to build platform specific programs, can be called a framework according to your definition, as they have routines built in for file managment, menues, graphics, etc, etc.

So what is not a framework?

(even assembly language is acording to your definition, a framework).

[BenPleysier]

Hi Paula, great to see you again.

It is not my definition, although I do agree with the definition that I quoted above.

As far as the sematics are concerned, I do not give a hoot whether I am using a framework and or library. What I am concerned about is using a jig/fixture/framework/library that will help me get the job done more efficiently.

[pziecina]

Hi Ben,

Personaly I could not care if someone uses a framework or whatever anymore. I once use to complain about a pages weight, but unless load times are an important feature it is for the individual developer along with the client to decide. After all a web site is subject to the 'fit for use' catagory of the consumer protection laws in most countries now. So if the site does not do what was requiered by the client, they don't have to pay the developer anything, (and can even claim for any losses).

[osgood-]

Its simple enough to interpret what a framework/library is:

Bootstrap (a framework) needs html /css to work i.e., I cant use Bootstrap alone, without html/css

jQuery(a library) needs javascript to function fully i.e., I cant use jQuery without javascript

Laravel (a framwork) needs php to work i.e., I cant use Laravel without php

php (a progamming language/script NOT a framework) I dont need anything else to use that ie I dont need to be using C.

I dont want to get into 'I need a computer to use them all' so all are frameworks for a computer. They are specific languages.

[BenPleysier]

php (a progamming language/script NOT a framework) I dont need anything else to use that ie I dont need to be using C

So, you can run the PHP interpreter without Apache?

[osgood-]

As  I said in my previous post:

'I dont want to get into 'I need a computer to use them all' so all are frameworks for a computer. They are specific languages.'

By your definition electricity is a framework, needed to run the computer to run the languages! Even your glass is a framework to hold the wine!

[pziecina]

"So, you can run the PHP interpreter without Apache?"

Actually you can run php without Apache. Apache is just the server, that php is installed on.

[BenPleysier]

Sorry, I should have said PHP server.

[pziecina]

You don't requier a php server to run php.

You can run it on any server, or without a server. 

[BenPleysier]

Alright, what then is the interpreter that would be used?

[pziecina]

The php run time that one can download from the php.org site, is the interpreter.

The php code that Dw or any other code editor creates, is simply a text file that must be passed to the php run time  to work. That is why Dw must be up-dated to support the syntax for any new versions, with added or new syntax.

[BenPleysier]

The php code that Dw or any other code editor creates, is simply a text file that must be passed to the php run time  to work. That is why Dw must be up-dated to support the syntax for any new versions, with added or new syntax.

Sorry, but that statement is like saying orange (chosen to not offend) is orange. What the statement does not say is that PHP needs a Visual Studio compiler to fumction. What the statement also does not say is that PHP is a server that provides an environment with all the necessary requirements to run or develop an application.

As far as the framework is concerned, have a look at   https://techterms.com/definition/framework#:~:text=A%20framework%2C%20or%20software%20framework,prog...