Muse users thinking about using Dreamweaver.

LEGEND ,
Mar 30, 2018 Mar 30, 2018

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Dreamweaver is seen by many Muse users as to difficult to use, that may not really be a realistic view.

With the use of Dreamweaver extensions, it is often possible to build a fully responsive site using the latest html and css, (and javascript or server-side/database) without having to 'dive into the code'.

If you are interested and want to know more, information on Project Seven and the high quality extensions they offer can be found at -

http://projectseven.com

DMXZone also offer extensions for Dreamweaver, and the server-side/database extensions are considered the best, so will also be of interest to many -

https://www.dmxzone.com

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Adobe Community Professional ,
Mar 30, 2018 Mar 30, 2018

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I will also add WebAssist to the list.

MySQLi Server Behaviors | Dreamweaver extension | WebAssist

Nancy O'Shea, Adobe Product User & Community Professional
Alt-Web Design & Publishing ~ Web : Print : Graphics : Media

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Mentor ,
Mar 30, 2018 Mar 30, 2018

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We're releasing a very useful tool... a convenience item that will enable users to add and edit styled text links, individual buttons, and lists of buttons. Our beta testers are wild about it. We could announce it on Adobe forums in a laid back way, of course, but I don't want to get accidentally banned for spam again. We could even consider a special intro offer for forum users. I just need some reassurances before taking the plunge.

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Adobe Community Professional ,
Mar 30, 2018 Mar 30, 2018

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I have posted this to all mods in the Backroom, Moderator's, and ACP Topics forums.

"For any of you who don't already know, Muse and Business Catalyst are going EOL soon and users need advice on alternatives -- not necessarily from Adobe's product line.

Adobe Muse EOL announcement - Alternatives to Adobe Muse?

You will see many posts with links that are NOT SPAM.  Please don't move these posts to Holding Room or penalize people for spamming.

Some of the names/links you will see include but are not limited to:

    • Project Seven
    • DMX Zone
    • WebAssist
    • Pinegrow
    • WebFlow
    • Sparkle
    • and others....

Thanks for your help."

Nancy O'Shea, Adobe Product User & Community Professional
Alt-Web Design & Publishing ~ Web : Print : Graphics : Media

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Mentor ,
Mar 30, 2018 Mar 30, 2018

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I took Paula's suggestion and posted on her Muse thread, but it was deleted. I guess a larger part of the Adobe problems involves clueless moderators

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LEGEND ,
Mar 30, 2018 Mar 30, 2018

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ALsp  wrote

I took Paula's suggestion and posted on her Muse thread, but it was deleted. I guess a larger part of the Adobe problems involves clueless moderators

You may have noticed AL that the discussion in the Muse forum has been locked, talk about idiots ruling the world .

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Mentor ,
Mar 30, 2018 Mar 30, 2018

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pziecina  wrote

realistic view

Are you gonna likewise layout and discuss all the things you have previously talked about regarding being disappointed with Dreamweaver's development, features and progress. ~~ Joking, I guess that may defeat the purpose.

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LEGEND ,
Mar 30, 2018 Mar 30, 2018

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I'm I think not a typical Dw user, in fact I'm probably not a typical web developer in that I only work with or on very large browser based back-room apps.

All I want to do with this discussion is help people not to get stuck with another Adobe Muse EOL situation in the future. For me that means at least making the sites they create transferable to any other editor/ide, if that includes using extensions, then providing those extensions generate code that they can work with in the future, (even without the extension) I'll try and help.

I'll also try and get them to code it themselves .

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LEGEND ,
Mar 30, 2018 Mar 30, 2018

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Even if the code that an extension/widget has generated is portable how is the developer going to change the code if needs be, that is almost exclusively done via a user interface which is exclusive to a particular program.

Any automated workflow whether it be Webflow, Wix, etc is only as good as its sell by date, thats something the user has zero contol over.

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LEGEND ,
Mar 30, 2018 Mar 30, 2018

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osgood_  wrote

Even if the code that an extension/widget has generated is portable how is the developer going to change the code if needs be, that is almost exclusively done via a user interface which is exclusive to a particular program.

Any automated workflow whether it be Webflow, Wix, etc is only as good as its sell by date, thats something the user has zero contol over.

That's why I said it should be editable outside of Dw, and that I will always try and get people to code it themselves.

Every program will always have some features that are not transferable unless someone knows code. Muse users are talking about moving to programs that have UI's which are just as difficult, (or easy) to use, than many extensions. They are also making the biggest mistake of all in my opinion, in that they are looking at programs which also tie them into hosting. So if the company collapses so does the hosting, and that company may not give them any notice or opportunity to download the site and transfer to another host, before the servers are closed down.

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LEGEND ,
Mar 30, 2018 Mar 30, 2018

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A fool and his money........

Im not gloating over this because to a certain extent l feel for those that have tied themselves into Muse or any other useless workflow of which there too many to mention. l have no idea why there seems over the psst few years to be an increasing number of so many dumb individuals. Maybe its because reality is painful and not easy to accept.

This is the biggest game changer in years. Yes we had the likes of Fireworks EOL it came at a time when things were rapidly changing and who honestly sits down these days and produces static wireframing. There were other image editing tools  that provided  easy and adequate solutions.

Ive always thought writing code is not the domain of an automated workflow as the landscape is constantly shifting and software developers struggle to keep up or introduce current practices.

Unfortunately Adobes reputation in terms of anything connected to the web is now in tatters and is unlikely that it will ever recover. Its proved unreliable in recent years and has many failures attributed to its portfolio.

I worry for DWs long term future...

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Adobe Community Professional ,
Mar 30, 2018 Mar 30, 2018

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I might be going out on a limb here but Muse's EOL might be beneficial for DW's health. 

  • Adobe XD is merely a prototyping tool.  It does not generate any code.
  • Adobe Spark (pre-release) is still a big question mark.
  • Adobe Portfolio is fine for what it is but is sorely lacking what designers need to satisfy clients.

What's left?  Dreamweaver!!!!

Nancy O'Shea, Adobe Product User & Community Professional
Alt-Web Design & Publishing ~ Web : Print : Graphics : Media

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Mentor ,
Mar 30, 2018 Mar 30, 2018

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^ So what you're saying is they may have to actually start working on it again (for real) and right the ship / catch up?

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Adobe Community Professional ,
Mar 30, 2018 Mar 30, 2018

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Yeah, I know.  I'm dreaming....

I'm wondering where the MU team members will go if not to DW?

Nancy O'Shea, Adobe Product User & Community Professional
Alt-Web Design & Publishing ~ Web : Print : Graphics : Media

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LEGEND ,
Mar 31, 2018 Mar 31, 2018

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https://forums.adobe.com/people/Nancy+OShea  wrote

I'm wondering where the MU team members will go if not to DW?

I'm wondering about the BC team, as they were originally the ones from InterAkt, (developers toolbox).

If history repeats then some of the Muse team will probably go to the development of Spark, and the rest will be looking for other work. I'm not placing any bets on Dw's future untill I see some positive changes.

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LEGEND ,
Mar 30, 2018 Mar 30, 2018

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Be carefull of what you wish for .

Dreamweaver may yet be cancelled, or may only be surviving because the cost of further development is so low.

If you were to ask most Muse users who used Dw in the past, what feature(s) did you use? Chances are they will say AP divs.

Dw will only move forward from its current 'one type of user' development path, if and only if, Adobe sees a future beyond the way websites were developed in the past, (if it don't work in IE8 it don't get into Dw). I know the Dw team must hate me, (and Adobe in general) but I can only see a real future for Dw if it decides to -

  1. Become more designer/developer friendly, with lots of improvments in helper features, no I am not talking about visual workflows, that I will leave to extension developers for those who require them. Or -
  2. Becomes a developers utopia, and allows one to develop more complexed sites and browser based apps, using ALL of the w3c specs that one requires, with more workflows than the current, 'one size is all you get'. Plus at least the basic requirerments of at least one server-side language and 2-3 types of database.

If anyone wants me to expand on anything, not tonight, I'm off to bed.

See you tomorrow folks

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LEGEND ,
Mar 30, 2018 Mar 30, 2018

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Nancy, why am I being moderated only when I reply to you or another moderator (I'm laughing about it, but I have only just noticed that those are the only times the mod notice is guaranteed to happen)?

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Adobe Community Professional ,
Mar 30, 2018 Mar 30, 2018

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I don't know why you're being moderated. 

Nancy O'Shea, Adobe Product User & Community Professional
Alt-Web Design & Publishing ~ Web : Print : Graphics : Media

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Mentor ,
Mar 30, 2018 Mar 30, 2018

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I truly think the moderators are simply not expert in the use of the products whose forums they are moderating. Actually, it's kind of obvious. Thankfully, people like you, and Ben, and Jon, and Birnou understand web dev. But I'm pretty sure you are a minority and this whole moderator thing is part of the problem, rather than a solution.

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Community Beginner ,
Apr 02, 2018 Apr 02, 2018

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Thanks for calling us "dumb". Something I have learned in my life is that most people are good at something few are good at many things. To call users of Muse dumb for adopting an app that takes away coding is really insulting. Some of us are graphic artists and designers which in case you didn't know this is a skill which is learned and involved training often with degrees in fine or graphic arts.

Adobe had a decent program and a godsend for those of use talented and trained in the front end of a website. Once again we have been dumped for so far no apparent reason other than to cut corporate spending on development for Muse. PS has a monthy fee of $10  while Muse's $15. This apparently was not enough cash for Adobe.

I've looked into the random alternatives being suggested as a Muse replacement and all I can say is they pathetic unless you want to make a photo gallery of your holiday. They all create sites which fail to loose that corporate "template" look.

Being smug about being a coder vs a graphic arts person won't win you friends and only divides Adobe's remaining customers. If you actually have something helpful to say we would all be grateful and perhaps we will be not "dumb" enough to find it useful.

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Mentor ,
Apr 02, 2018 Apr 02, 2018

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We produce tools for Dreamweaver that allow total design freedom in laying out a page -- done from within an interface that opens inside Dreamweaver. I think part of the reason Adobe even made Muse, is because Adobe lost its connection with Dreamweaver extension developers: the people who actually made Dreamweaver a successful program to begin with. On the surface, a non-coding Dreamweaver user will believe in order to make a web page, on must use Bootstrap. Nothing could be further from the truth, or closer to a lie.

So... consider Dreamweaver.

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LEGEND ,
Apr 02, 2018 Apr 02, 2018

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Dumb may have been harsh so l apologise if l have offended.

However you should get to know my background a little more. l am a qualfied graphic designer since 1979 if l can remember back that far am still in the business today churning out dtp work .

Perhaps l was lucky when l crossed the bridge and expanded my operation to take in web design because drag and drop web applications never existed in the format they do today. I had no option but to learn to code. About the only thing near to what you have today in a drag snd drop application was absolutey positioned divs, and anyone who used those, including mydelf, soon found out they were flawed as a workflow.

I didnt get my first gig as a web designer for over 2 years, maybe nearer to 3 as l busily pulled down just about every website l liked and studied the code along with the help of some fantastic people in the forum which preceeded this one l slowly began to understand how a page of code should be created. Many unpaid hours were involved because l had a deep passion to know how it all worked and before l considered l had enough experience to offer a very limited static web development service. Since then my coding skills have continued to evolve, but not without a lot of hard work.

Roll on 20 years and unfortunately the generation who now use these automated applications have really been sold down the river and duped by software companies whose only goal is to make money, then either shut up shop or discontinue a product leaving the user abandoned.

My only words of advice is the same advice l have always  given, learn to code and you will be the master of your own destiny, not a puppet of someone elses thoughts and processes. Of course thats no good if you expect to launch a website tomorrow but to do anything worthwhile you have to put in the time.

Im really sorry you find yourself in the situation you do but seriously lve tried and mostly failed to convince people they need to learn to code...

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LEGEND ,
Apr 02, 2018 Apr 02, 2018

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Kfbeau  wrote

Thanks for calling us "dumb". Something I have learned in my life is that most people are good at something few are good at many things. To call users of Muse dumb for adopting an app that takes away coding is really insulting. Some of us are graphic artists and designers which in case you didn't know this is a skill which is learned and involved training often with degrees in fine or graphic arts.

Muse and programs like it are the web site equivalent of 'Painting by numbers'.

As artists and designers would agree that 'painting by numbers' created artwork is NOT real art, why would anyone think that creating a web site without knowing code is a skill equivalent to that of a web developer.

I can accept that Muse is used by hobbyists, and those with little time to learn how to build web sites correctly, but I cannot accept that someone thinks Muse created sites even if they have been created by people with degrees in fine or graphic arts, are even in the same category of a site created by a real web designer and developer.

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New Here ,
Apr 27, 2018 Apr 27, 2018

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Rubbish. Taditional coding doesn’t have to be the only way to create websites. Programs continue to evolve. We are just not there ”yet”. If your statement were true, we would never have evolved beyond inputting 1’s and 0’s. The goal is to simplify the tools to build great sites. Great sites is the goal.

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LEGEND ,
Apr 27, 2018 Apr 27, 2018

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Unfortuantely there will never ever be a web programme which will offer all that is available as what you can now achieve and use is too vast for it  to be able to include. You might get the programmes or frameworks such as Bootstrap which offer a limited number of components but beyond that you will have to code if ypu want something different, that will always be the case.

What you can do now without knowing any code is a vast improvement on what you could do ten years ago of course but if you can think of it and can code you can produce it. If you can think of it and cant code your option become far less, relying on someone else like an extension maker or framework producer, hardly ever will that result in what you thought of. If you cant code you are continually making compromises.

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