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Now that Muse is defunct, what is the future of Dreamweaver?

Explorer ,
Mar 26, 2018

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Will Dreamweaver still remain in Adobe's arsenal, or will it bite the dust in the very near future?  I used Muse to create sites for several clients, and it looks like I'll be forced to migrate these sites into Dreamweaver for any future changes and maintenance.  If Dreamweaver is on the chopping block, though, it would sure be nice to know now so that I can plan accordingly.

Like I promised, I checked with the senior management about the future of Dreamweaver, and their answer was that they see no reason to stop developing the product. Dreamweaver will continue to exist, period.

I understand that no amount of reassurance will suffice, but I do want to put other Dreamweaver users visiting this post at ease.

I am marking my answer as correct only because I want this question to be addressed upfront for visitors that will not care to read the rest of the discussion. If any of you feel strongly against that, let me know, and I will take care of unmarking it.

Thanks,

Preran

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Now that Muse is defunct, what is the future of Dreamweaver?

Explorer ,
Mar 26, 2018

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Will Dreamweaver still remain in Adobe's arsenal, or will it bite the dust in the very near future?  I used Muse to create sites for several clients, and it looks like I'll be forced to migrate these sites into Dreamweaver for any future changes and maintenance.  If Dreamweaver is on the chopping block, though, it would sure be nice to know now so that I can plan accordingly.

Like I promised, I checked with the senior management about the future of Dreamweaver, and their answer was that they see no reason to stop developing the product. Dreamweaver will continue to exist, period.

I understand that no amount of reassurance will suffice, but I do want to put other Dreamweaver users visiting this post at ease.

I am marking my answer as correct only because I want this question to be addressed upfront for visitors that will not care to read the rest of the discussion. If any of you feel strongly against that, let me know, and I will take care of unmarking it.

Thanks,

Preran

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Mar 26, 2018 0
Adobe Community Professional ,
Mar 27, 2018

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if anyone has the answer, it has not yet emerged ... and this question has already been asked, long before Muse was officially put on the shelf, actually since CS6 we started to whisper (without much belief) and since CC2015 we are in great expectation as to the future of DW.

During the last broadcast of roadmap, nothing was convincing. we add novelties ... without knowing why? ... and resilient bugs, cumbersome execution, the real non-stability, make all of us, who produce sites to make a living ... have either a panoply of spare, or we are under CS6 ... maximum 2015 ... but 2017, 2018 and certainly 2019 are totaly unusable ...

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Mar 27, 2018 0
LEGEND ,
Mar 27, 2018

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I would not advise trying to use Dreamweaver to maintain or update a Muse site.

A better option would be to continue to use Muse until you can convert the sites to normal html, css, javascript. Muse will continue to be available as part of your CC subscription, it will just never be developed further. It may also be an idea to at least look at the Adobe Spark pre-release builds, as that appears to be Adobes recommended option, though with Adobes record of support for anything web, and given what they have done with Muse, I personally would be very cautious about using Spark.

The main problem with trying to use Dreamweaver, is that the Muse code is almost unreadable, especially if you have used any plug-ins/widgets. For Muse users who do wish to try going in the 'convert to Dreameaver' direction, I would ask if the Adobe forums could add a separate forum section just for those people. With the code base of Muse being so bad to read, especially when plug-ins/widgets have been used, having one place to go may help ex Muse users in the conversion to a code based solution.

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Mar 27, 2018 1
Explorer ,
Mar 27, 2018

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@pziecina

For me, your answer misses the point - I appreciate you weren't addressing me so no offence intended.  I have Muse sites and am now looking for an alternative. My question is, is it worth me investing my time and money in learning to use DW or is that likely to go the same way as Muse? I fully appreciate that Muse code cannot be read by DW (or anything else for that matter) but I am going to have to rebuild from scratch at some point in the future anyway, so why wouldn't I use DW? I appreciate that the learning for DW is in a different league from Muse but I may be prepared to do that if I had confidence that DW was going to be around for what, another 10 years?

Can anyone give me that confidence?

It may be that I am asking the impossible...

Regards.

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Mar 27, 2018 0
LEGEND ,
Mar 27, 2018

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Providing you learn modern coding requirements, and don't rely on any Dw features except coding help, then even if they do at some point drop Dreamweaver it will not matter, as code is code and can be used with any code editor or ide.

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Mar 27, 2018 1
Explorer ,
Mar 27, 2018

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Thanks, that makes sense. Could be time for me go back to school...

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Mar 27, 2018 0
Adobe Community Professional ,
Mar 27, 2018

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Despite what others are saying, the published Muse site is proper HTML, CSS and JS, albeit, not in the format that experienced web developers would aspire to. As such, the published version can be ported into and maintained with Dreamweaver. The consequence is that the site cannot be returned to a Muse environment.

As opposed to Muse, using Dreamweaver requires a working knowledge of HTML and CSS with some JS knowledge.


Ben

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Mar 27, 2018 0
Mentor ,
Mar 27, 2018

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BenPleysier  wrote

Despite what others are saying, the published Muse site is proper HTML, CSS and JS, albeit, not in the format that experienced web developers would aspire to.

That's a pretty interesting comment, brace yourself. 😉

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Mar 27, 2018 0
LEGEND ,
Mar 28, 2018

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W_J_T  wrote

BenPleysier   wrote

Despite what others are saying, the published Muse site is proper HTML, CSS and JS, albeit, not in the format that experienced web developers would aspire to.

That's a pretty interesting comment, brace yourself. 😉

Cannot argue against the comment, because it is true.

The problem is though, trying to work out what is happening and then modify the css and js files, makes changing the bootstrap css and js files look like something you could teach a 10 year old who has never coded before.

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Mar 28, 2018 0
LEGEND ,
Mar 28, 2018

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pedigree1  wrote

@pziecina

For me, your answer misses the point - I appreciate you weren't addressing me so no offence intended.  I have Muse sites and am now looking for an alternative. My question is, is it worth me investing my time and money in learning to use DW or is that likely to go the same way as Muse? I fully appreciate that Muse code cannot be read by DW (or anything else for that matter) but I am going to have to rebuild from scratch at some point in the future anyway, so why wouldn't I use DW? I appreciate that the learning for DW is in a different league from Muse but I may be prepared to do that if I had confidence that DW was going to be around for what, another 10 years?

Can anyone give me that confidence?

It may be that I am asking the impossible...

Regards.

How long is a piece of string.

The problem is Adobe is struggling to keep up with future web-development trends. Instead of persisting it often decides there is no more legs in the product and closes it down, without any real consideration for its customers. Its happened in the past and will happen again with many web-develoment programs, not just ones bought to the market by Adobe. Many, many have sadly fallen by the wayside over the past decade. Web-development is a continuously shifting environment and the only safe way to stay afloat is to learn to code, then any html editor will do the job, its that simple. If you cut corners and are intending to be in this for the long-run then you could well be setting yourself up for a nasty surprise in the future.

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Mar 28, 2018 0
Explorer ,
Mar 28, 2018

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Thanks. I've got the message from this discussion and others. Learn to code.

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Mar 28, 2018 0
LEGEND ,
Mar 28, 2018

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pedigree1  wrote

Thanks. I've got the message from this discussion and others. Learn to code.

It really is a wise decision albeit it takes time and effort.

Bootstrap 3 users have to now familiarise themselves with new Bootstrap 4 technics and classes, which ia always a pain. Others will be working in both v3 and v4 trying to remember which class is native to which version. In any automated environment you put yourself in the hands of the provider and if that provider decides to change things you are not in control.

DW unfortunately is an extendable program where many developers rely on extensions, which is all well and good until DW shuts up shop. Yes you will have extension developers say DW will work for many years to come, it perhaps will but it no longer receives any future updates, so those who use and depend upon it stagnate quite quickly. That's probably ok for your amateur developer BUT if any full-time web-developer is using it as a front-line bit of their kit for automated code writing and its their livlihood at stake then maybe they should seriously think again and at least have a plan B in position.

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Mar 28, 2018 0
Mentor ,
Mar 28, 2018

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BenPleysier   wrote

Despite what others are saying, the published Muse site is proper HTML, CSS and JS, albeit, not in the format that experienced web developers would aspire to.

pziecina  wrote

Cannot argue against the comment, because it is true. The problem is though, trying to work out what is happening and then modify the css and js files.

I am sure you have observed and kept track of it in contrast to myself. As I just looked looked at some Muse sites after the EOL announcement, not really knowing much of it. What I found were sites littered with inline css, absolute overuse, and other non conforming methods and practices with CSS and in the HTML alike. I was unsure if the app or user did those things, but would not consider various things proper or practical.

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Mar 28, 2018 0
Explorer ,
Apr 03, 2018

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I have to disagree. We don't need to code to use a computer. Don't need to code to use a design program like InDesign. Don't need to code to operate a robot. This world is full of digital technologies that are presented to users with a 'user interface' so that the average person can use them. The web should be no different. WYSIWYG technologies for website development and/or design are the way of the future. Website design/development should be in the hands of designers, not developers. This is the only way in which we will develop and maintain a vivid internet world, rather than the 'stock standard templated' environment we have been bored to tears by over the last few years. That's my view, and I'm a web designer/graphic designer so I'm no doubt EXTREMELY bias!! LOL! Cheers everyone.

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Apr 03, 2018 1
Adobe Community Professional ,
Apr 03, 2018

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either if I try to put code every where... either if code is not needed... (I use a Raspberry to pilot my wood pellet heating)... I completly 100% agree with you... one should be able to use graphics interface to control what happens under the covers...

is not that what graphic interfaces (Bozniak among others) have brought to the use of computers ... click with a mouse on an element and move it to a trash instead of typing some obscur sentence... rm -f -r {file-name}...?

to directly mousing to draw a block in in design instead of writing / csquare {newpath 0 0 moveto ... and so on ...

I am 100% in agreement that designers must be able to use a program to create interfaces and websites ... no code is needed...  plug-in developers to provide gateways to manage complexities ... and publishers IDE to implement tools that lay down HTML / CSS code that respects standards and open wide the doors for third part developer

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Apr 03, 2018 0
Adobe Employee ,
Mar 27, 2018

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I haven't heard of any such plan for Dreamweaver. I will check with the product management team to see if they have anything else to add.

Thanks,

Preran

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Mar 27, 2018 0
Adobe Community Professional ,
Mar 27, 2018

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This is not the first time Adobe  have retired products and it certainly won't be the last.  Think back to  PageMill,  GoLive, Fireworks, Director, Encore, Contribute, LiveCycle, Edge, Course Builder, e-Learning suite....  all gone now.   As industries & technologies change, so too must the software we use.  In 2020, Flash, Muse and Business Catalyst will reach EOL. 

Dreamweaver remains an excellent tool for site management  and code editing.   If you can write your own code,   you will never be a slave to your software.   But non-coders will always have trouble when the software they rely on stops being developed. 

Nancy O'Shea, ACP
Alt-Web.com

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Mar 27, 2018 1
LEGEND ,
Mar 28, 2018

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The problem with everything everyone is saying is that it does not answer the original question, "what is the future for Dreamweaver"?

I doubt if the Muse team even knew that Muse was to be discontinued, untll a few weeks before the announcement. So even if the Dreamweaver managment was to say that there are no plans to drop Dreamweaver, how much could we rely on that being true.

We, (in this forum) have been saying for months, if not years, that Dw user are abandoning Dw for other code editors/ide's, (though we do not really know, and only basing our assumptions on what Dw offers). If we are thinking Dw is finished, and the Muse users had no idea it was to be discontinued, it will take someone much higher up in the Adobe managment chain than the Dw team is, to restore any confidence in Dw's future.

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Mar 28, 2018 0
Adobe Employee ,
Mar 28, 2018

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Like I promised, I checked with the senior management about the future of Dreamweaver, and their answer was that they see no reason to stop developing the product. Dreamweaver will continue to exist, period.

I understand that no amount of reassurance will suffice, but I do want to put other Dreamweaver users visiting this post at ease.

I am marking my answer as correct only because I want this question to be addressed upfront for visitors that will not care to read the rest of the discussion. If any of you feel strongly against that, let me know, and I will take care of unmarking it.

Thanks,

Preran

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Mar 28, 2018 3
LEGEND ,
Mar 28, 2018

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@Preran

Thank you Preran,

As you say no amount of reasurance will help, but at least you asked .

I just hope that the Dw team take note of what happened to Muse, and learn from the announcement that they cannot ignore what is happening in modern web development. I also hope that Adobe in general (including acp's) will be more supportive of web developers requirerments.

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Mar 28, 2018 1
Mentor ,
Mar 28, 2018

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pziecina  wrote

I just hope that the Dw team take note of what happened to Muse, and learn from the announcement that they cannot ignore what is happening in modern web development. I also hope that Adobe in general (including acp's) will be more supportive of web developers requirerments.

I thought the below comment was pretty accurate ...

rayek.elfin  wrote

If history teaches us two things is that:

1) Adobe doesn't really understand the web or its developers, designers, and asset creators;

2) Adobe will introduce new promising looking applications, only to pull the rug from under their users more often than not.

😉

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Mar 28, 2018 0
LEGEND ,
Mar 28, 2018

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W_J_T  wrote

If history teaches us two things is that:

1) Adobe doesn't really understand the web or its developers, designers, and asset creators;

2) Adobe will introduce new promising looking applications, only to pull the rug from under their users more often than not.

At the risk of sounding like a broken record.

I've been saying the first one for years, and no one from Adobe, (or Dw) has ever answered. I'm also sorry to say that at some point in the future the second point will also repeat itself, though Adobe is not alone in doing so.

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Mar 28, 2018 0
Adobe Community Professional ,
Apr 03, 2018

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Hello Preran,

Thanks for the heads up.

If that is true that DW will continue the road, that makes me happy, because DW is a really great tool for managing web site... but beside it... DW doesn't fit the needs of whatever profile the user is...

  • non coders doesn't like it because code is too much present (it's not Muse, Wappler, Pinegrow..; and so on...)
  • coders doesn't like it, because the code editor is too tight in between third part that is half integrated... Sass, Library version, and so on (in short we use external third part) ... difficulty for code editor setting and theming, code formating... etc... ect...
  • designer, the live interface is not really smooth, and, the overall UI is not as a real modern tool
  • web integrator... well no Database connection, no way to fill up esaly datas...
  • every profiles, well stability is not around, greedy in ressources, performances issues, so many bugs and features missing since so long
  • plug in users, don't think that just non coders use plugin... when a plugin helps to win time and ressrouces every one is ready to use it... so why making the process of plugin so hard and complex...

so... taht said... we all are still around... so why... because we love Dreamweaver... isn't it... but... but there is a but... we also all use external editors, we also revert to older build CS6 (for myself... CC2015 for most users)... any way most of us are not using CC2018 nor CC2017... so

when do you think that Marketing, will listen the end users and will try to figure out what really makes Dreamweaver loose so much of its audience....

my 2 cents

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Apr 03, 2018 0
Explorer ,
Apr 03, 2018

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pziecina  wrote

W_J_T   wrote

If history teaches us two things is that:

1) Adobe doesn't really understand the web or its developers, designers, and asset creators;

2) Adobe will introduce new promising looking applications, only to pull the rug from under their users more often than not.

At the risk of sounding like a broken record.

I've been saying the first one for years, and no one from Adobe, (or Dw) has ever answered. I'm also sorry to say that at some point in the future the second point will also repeat itself, though Adobe is not alone in doing so.

Adobe doesn't need to understand web developers, it needs to understand how to build a fully capable website using a WYSIWYG interface. We don't need 'neat' code anymore now that we have fast and super fast internet speeds. We don't need to optimise graphics up the wazoo anymore for the same reason. We need a way for creatives to create on the internet without being confined to the 'black and white' world of the coding tech heads. There is nothing more depressing than creating the same old 'template' websites over and over again, when we creatives KNOW that there is so much more out there that can be done, so much more we could be doing to create engaging experiences online. But more often than not we have to stick within the boundaries of the limited skillset of the average web developer who knows only a small fraction of what is possible and has learned to implement only a fraction of that. Or we have to go to a top end provider to get the latest and pay an absolute fortune for the privilege. And typically the privilege we pay for is simply the 'copy and paste' of code from a previous job - and once done the developer goes to the beach for two weeks, then comes back and invoices the client for their suntan. Designers are sick and tired of hearing "We can do that sure, but it'll take about two weeks to implement" when we know full well the developer has done exactly the same piece of coding for many many previous clients and will probably spend an hour implementing the exact same thing on our site. It's about time those days were done don't you think? I know there are a lot of developers who will resent what I'm saying but I've been in the game a very long time so I KNOW what goes on. Designers the world over NEED a tool like Muse, and so does the end consumer. It is a better and more productive way to innovate and provide web design/development services, and MUCH more cost effective. Consumers should be investing in innovation and design, rather than investing in the endless duplication and re-writing of code.

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Apr 03, 2018 0
Adobe Community Professional ,
Apr 03, 2018

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as much as I agree that GUIs need to make it easier to put content in, and that the hood does not have to be open to code, I do not agree on this duality, apparent, between 'us' and 'them' ...

we are all web developers, with business sectors that are sometimes opposed, sometimes complementary, sometimes redundant ... but one does not necessarily go without the other ...

caricature developers as glue copiers is as reductive, even as insulting, as what has been said previously through various threads concerning users of Muse ...

in one way or the other, I do not think that judging, reducing the other to uselessness, or deceit, allows everyone to be better perceived. To have different opinions is one thing, to say that his opinion premium is something else.

similarly I do not agree on the fact that it is no longer necessary to produce a code that is clean, given the size of networks and bandwidths ... that would mean ... hmmm ... what is the point of embellishing with color, the screens produce different colors, and a large part of printers still print in black and white ...

let's be constructive ... let's try to define the needs of tools that web developers need ... in terms of graphics quality and integrations, code quality, but also metadata, accessibility, architecture, optimization, SEO, and ... most sharing...

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Apr 03, 2018 0
LEGEND ,
Apr 03, 2018

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tiff_meek  wrote

pziecina   wrote

W_J_T    wrote

If history teaches us two things is that:

1) Adobe doesn't really understand the web or its developers, designers, and asset creators;

2) Adobe will introduce new promising looking applications, only to pull the rug from under their users more often than not.

At the risk of sounding like a broken record.

I've been saying the first one for years, and no one from Adobe, (or Dw) has ever answered. I'm also sorry to say that at some point in the future the second point will also repeat itself, though Adobe is not alone in doing so.

Adobe doesn't need to understand web developers, it needs to understand how to build a fully capable website using a WYSIWYG interface. We don't need 'neat' code anymore now that we have fast and super fast internet speeds. We don't need to optimise graphics up the wazoo anymore for the same reason. We need a way for creatives to create on the internet without being confined to the 'black and white' world of the coding tech heads. There is nothing more depressing than creating the same old 'template' websites over and over again, when we creatives KNOW that there is so much more out there that can be done, so much more we could be doing to create engaging experiences online. But more often than not we have to stick within the boundaries of the limited skillset of the average web developer who knows only a small fraction of what is possible and has learned to implement only a fraction of that. Or we have to go to a top end provider to get the latest and pay an absolute fortune for the privilege. And typically the privilege we pay for is simply the 'copy and paste' of code from a previous job - and once done the developer goes to the beach for two weeks, then comes back and invoices the client for their suntan. Designers are sick and tired of hearing "We can do that sure, but it'll take about two weeks to implement" when we know full well the developer has done exactly the same piece of coding for many many previous clients and will probably spend an hour implementing the exact same thing on our site. It's about time those days were done don't you think? I know there are a lot of developers who will resent what I'm saying but I've been in the game a very long time so I KNOW what goes on. Designers the world over NEED a tool like Muse, and so does the end consumer. It is a better and more productive way to innovate and provide web design/development services, and MUCH more cost effective. Consumers should be investing in innovation and design, rather than investing in the endless duplication and re-writing of code.

Its obvious you dont know much about web-development, no 2 jobs are quite the same. Yes we may recycle some code but there is never a time where I have not had to spent copious amounts of hours testing a new or additional requirement that the client wants. Everything needs to be tested or should be  tested on mobile devices - padding, margin, font sizes, images etc would be adjusted specifically for these hand-helds. I know a lot of developers dont bother but some of us actually do try our best to take pride in presenting the visual layout correctly.

Whenever has a graphic designer had to consider if their advert is readable if suddenly the publication shrank to A5 size?

Most developers wont know everything, however experienced that may be, so have to do research into techniques, coding and testing to implement the required component/s in most cases, something a graphic design never needs to do as what DTP programs can do is very limited.

Sure I undertsand your frustration but I can never see an automated program being a replacement for manual coding. Widgets and extensions are limited in the options they provide.

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Apr 03, 2018 0
LEGEND ,
Apr 03, 2018

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tiff_meek  wrote

Adobe doesn't need to understand web developers, it needs to understand how to build a fully capable website using a WYSIWYG interface.

Congratulations tiff_meek, you have won the "have not got a clue, what you are talking about" prize of the week, (and it is only Monday).

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Apr 03, 2018 0
Explorer ,
Apr 03, 2018

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I've been in the game for 30 years so I'm in a position to speak freely on the topic. I used to develop websites (using coding) many years ago, I've sat beside developers while they code, I've project managed site builds (hundreds of the things), and I've seen what needs to be customised, adjusted and what doesn't. My comments still stand. The web development industry needs a serious overhaul at the lower end of the industry skillset. My ultimate goal however is not to criticise web developers as an industry, but to support the idea of a WYSIWYG web development tool for designers. After all, this is an Adobe forum, for Adobe applications, for Adobe clients. Cheers Tiff.

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Explorer ,
Apr 03, 2018

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As I've partially said previously,

pziecina  wrote

tiff_meek   wrote

Adobe doesn't need to understand web developers, it needs to understand how to build a fully capable website using a WYSIWYG interface.

Congratulations tiff_meek, you have won the "have not got a clue, what you are talking about" prize of the week, (and it is only Monday).

I've worked on HUNDREDS of websites with many many developers over a career of 30 years, so whether you think so or not I'm in a position to talk. Not to mention that I'm on an Adobe forum, talking about the need for an Adobe application. So I think, all round, I'm in a position to have a view. Some web developers have resisted Muse because it threatens their industry. I don't blame them. If I was a web developer I'd try to come up with every reason under the sun NOT to argue against Muse too! Cheers Tiff

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LEGEND ,
Apr 03, 2018

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tiff_meek  wrote

I've worked on HUNDREDS of websites with many many developers over a career of 30 years, so whether you think so or not I'm in a position to talk. Not to mention that I'm on an Adobe forum, talking about the need for an Adobe application. So I think, all round, I'm in a position to have a view. Some web developers have resisted Muse because it threatens their industry. I don't blame them. If I was a web developer I'd try to come up with every reason under the sun NOT to argue against Muse too! Cheers Tiff

You can have a view, but just because someone has worked on hundreds of web sites, it does not meen they can build web sites to modern requirerments or know what they are talking about.

20 years ago, no 10 years ago, everyone and their dog though they could build a web site, (and lots of them looked and felt like the dog had). The web is still evolving, it now has legal requirements that a site must satisfy (that Muse ignored), it is not static as dtp is. Muse and programs like it do fill a requirerment, but such programs have discontinuation built into them, because they cannot keep up with the evolutionary processes of the web.

Saying that there is or should be no requirerment to code, illustrates that you think that the web has reached its final stage, and nothing new will ever be required.

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Adobe Community Professional ,
Apr 03, 2018

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20 years ago, no 10 years ago, everyone and their dog though they could build a web site,

hmmm... you overestimate the past ... 20 years ago ... everyone did not necessarily know that the web existed ... we were then in 1997 ... and the HTML celebrated just its second candles ...

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LEGEND ,
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tiff_meek  wrote

but to support the idea of a WYSIWYG web development tool for designers.

You've seen it and also seen what can happen, ring any bells?

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Explorer ,
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pziecina  wrote

tiff_meek   wrote

I've worked on HUNDREDS of websites with many many developers over a career of 30 years, so whether you think so or not I'm in a position to talk. Not to mention that I'm on an Adobe forum, talking about the need for an Adobe application. So I think, all round, I'm in a position to have a view. Some web developers have resisted Muse because it threatens their industry. I don't blame them. If I was a web developer I'd try to come up with every reason under the sun NOT to argue against Muse too! Cheers Tiff

You can have a view, but just because someone has worked on hundreds of web sites, it does not meen they can build web sites to modern requirerments or know what they are talking about.

20 years ago, no 10 years ago, everyone and their dog though they could build a web site, (and lots of them looked and felt like the dog had). The web is still evolving, it now has legal requirements that a site must satisfy (that Muse ignored), it is not static as dtp is. Muse and programs like it do fill a requirerment, but such programs have discontinuation built into them, because they cannot keep up with the evolutionary processes of the web.

Saying that there is or should be no requirerment to code, illustrates that you think that the web has reached its final stage, and nothing new will ever be required.

I never claimed to be able to develop at todays level (otherwise I'd be a web developer instead of a web designer), but I know how the industry works, and I've watched plenty of developers at work. You don't have to be a baker to smell the loaf burning.

I'm simply defending Adobe Muse as a legitimate innovation in the digital world that had a place, has a place and will continue to hold a place, whether anybody likes it or not. WYSIWYG applications like Muse may be yet to take into account the latest developments in web capabilities, but they WILL at some point in the future. These applications have yet to be innovated, but they are coming (ie. Muse).

I didn't even remotely suggest there's no requirement to code or that the web has reached its final stage. The opposite in fact. I'm saying that we shouldn't need developers for the vast majority of web site builds. Muse agrees with me. Wordpress agrees with me. Shopify agrees with me. Wix agrees with me. Countless organisations who are coming up with solutions agree with me.

Muse was a new innovation and it had a long way to go, and now Adobe is giving up mid stream, but nothing changes that it is the way of the future. Many people get 'stuck' thinking about what IS and what HAS BEEN and cannot envisage what WILL BE. Muse is a taste of what WILL BE, and whether Adobe continues their work on it or not, another product will fill its place and continue on with the job of providing what will become the future's 'norm' for web development all but at the highest level. That's my view. Night night all.  Cheers Tiff

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Mentor ,
Apr 03, 2018

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tiff_meek  wrote

I've been in the game for 30 years so I'm in a position to speak freely on the topic. I used to develop websites (using coding)

tiff_meek  wrote

I've worked on HUNDREDS of websites with many many developers over a career of 30 years

30 years ... So you started here huh ? Lets time travel shall we.

A History Of The Internet: 1988

And now 30 years later you are on an Adobe forum to advocate the following...

tiff_meek  wrote

support the idea of a WYSIWYG web development tool for designers

tiff_meek  wrote

WYSIWYG technologies for website development and/or design are the way of the future. Website design/development should be in the hands of designers, not developers.

What an interesting journey the web and you have taken.

WYSIWYG is the evolution and destination of the web huh, thanks for the edification. Its good to know designers will take it from here what developers have built. Maybe developers on all levels should have a walkout for a few months across the entire world (#vacationsfordevelopers) and see how this idea of "development should be in the hands of designers" works out. I am sure infrastructure will be the first to improve, no doubt databases will run smoother also. What an eloquent solution you have come up with, "just let the designers to it".

Carry on designers take the torch.

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Explorer ,
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W_J_T  wrote

tiff_meek   wrote

I've been in the game for 30 years so I'm in a position to speak freely on the topic. I used to develop websites (using coding)

tiff_meek   wrote

I've worked on HUNDREDS of websites with many many developers over a career of 30 years

30 years ... So you started here huh ? Lets time travel shall we.

A History Of The Internet: 1988

And now 30 years later you are on an Adobe forum to advocate the following...

tiff_meek   wrote

support the idea of a WYSIWYG web development tool for designers

tiff_meek   wrote

WYSIWYG technologies for website development and/or design are the way of the future. Website design/development should be in the hands of designers, not developers.

What an interesting journey the web and you have taken.

WYSIWYG is the evolution and destination of the web huh, thanks for the edification. Its good to know designers will take it from here what developers have built. Maybe developers on all levels should have a walkout for a few months across the entire world (#vacationsfordevelopers) and see how this idea of "development should be in the hands of designers" works out. I am sure infrastructure will be the first to improve, no doubt databases will run smoother also. What an eloquent solution you have come up with, "just let the designers to it".

Carry on designers take the torch.

Oh please. I'm here to talk about the web development industry in relation to Adobe Muse vs web developers/coders per se. Please try not to get all 'personal'. This is a debate not an argument. If you don't like my opinion don't read it. Simple as that. I'm not forcing myself upon you and if my view is getting you all in a huff then why not go and do something more pleasant perhaps? It is of course impossible to create the tools to serve the designers without developers and programmers who make them in the first place. That's a no brainer. High end developers and programmers are an amazing bunch with an amazing skillset. That's a no brainer. My point is... well I think I've made my point several times over. Ultimately, very few developers are going to appreciate my view or wish to see the future in this regard. That's fine. I never expected to be greeted with open arms on the topic. Cheers Tiff

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Mentor ,
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This is an automated response message, you will now be forwarded to a designer. Please hold.

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https://forums.adobe.com/people/B+i+r+n+o+u  wrote

as much as I agree that GUIs need to make it easier to put content in, and that the hood does not have to be open to code, I do not agree on this duality, apparent, between 'us' and 'them' ...

we are all web developers, with business sectors that are sometimes opposed, sometimes complementary, sometimes redundant ... but one does not necessarily go without the other ...

caricature developers as glue copiers is as reductive, even as insulting, as what has been said previously through various threads concerning users of Muse ...

in one way or the other, I do not think that judging, reducing the other to uselessness, or deceit, allows everyone to be better perceived. To have different opinions is one thing, to say that his opinion premium is something else.

similarly I do not agree on the fact that it is no longer necessary to produce a code that is clean, given the size of networks and bandwidths ... that would mean ... hmmm ... what is the point of embellishing with color, the screens produce different colors, and a large part of printers still print in black and white ...

let's be constructive ... let's try to define the needs of tools that web developers need ... in terms of graphics quality and integrations, code quality, but also metadata, accessibility, architecture, optimization, SEO, and ... most sharing...

You have to forgive me. As a designer I have just lost Muse and this is a major blow, as it is to a whole host of designers across the globde. My reaction was to a group of people on this forum being critical of the idea that Muse was a legitimate tool in the world and basically telling everyone to 'wake up to themselves'. I am simply putting forward a counter argument from the perspective of a designer. As a designer I am one of Adobe's principal clients. We designers need the tools to do our job. Our job is to create. We cannot create unless the world provides us with the tools. It is an endless frustration to a creative to have to work within a 'technical' space. Technical people 'tend' to lack vision. They 'tend' to think black and white. They 'tend' to think in terms of what is and has been possible, rather than what could be possible. This is a difficult space for designers. We need the freedom to innovate, and a canvas on which to express ourselves and our work. This is not a criticism of developers. It is absolutely necessary that they think the way they do in order to be great at what they do. The internet has been the domain of the developers, and the look and feel of the internet reflects this. At this point in history the internet is crammed full of 'templated' or technical websites. The potential for creativity is lost in this 'technical' space. The internet is the global brain. It is meant to be a reflection of humanity as it stands. But it isn't. It's a lack-lustre space full of information delivered site after site after site in exactly the same way (for the most part). It is missing the creativity that we see in other arenas. And this is because technical people 'tend' not to be creative, and creatives 'tend' not to be technical. The internet has become a sausage factory. Muse, or programs like it, are fundamental for our capacity to develop the internet to its full potential - to allow creatives to innovate and create immensely engaging experiences within an affordable budget. Muse is/was necessary. And it still is. This is my view. Cheers Tiff

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LEGEND ,
Apr 03, 2018

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tiff_meek  wrote

Oh please. I'm here to talk about the web development industry in relation to Adobe Muse vs web developers/coders per se.

O/K, lets talk about WYSIWYG and visual web site creation. Lets not talk about Muse vs code.

The problem with code editors is that even for developers they never match what one requires, and any help they give is more often than not simply a memory jerk, in that they will only suggest the code to use if you have some idea of what the code is in the first place, (code hints). The other problem with them is, is that they are often years behind in code hints anyway.

Now to WYSIWYG and pure visual site creators. The problem with them is that they take a snap-shot of what the web can do at the time they are written, also that they try to hide from the user requirerments such as WCAG Level 2, (they simply ignore them). They also due to the users they try to support, generalise everything. In that they allow the user to do simple things but never allow the user to go beyond the basic requirerments. As for semantic mark-up forget it.

Programs like Dreamweaver did in the past try to support a visual workflow to some extent, but due to the abuse of those features by those using them, and advances in things like mobile device browsers, social media, etc... the methods used became 'unfit for purpose'.

So what is required?

instead of the code vs no-code stance, maybe like everything else in this modern era there should be a middle ground. Instead of saying it should work like a dtp program, (none coder) or a code editor (developer) it would be better to first admit that the web is not the same as dtp, and that development can be overly complexed if just using a code editor.

Somewhere between the two extreme views there could be a middle ground, and that middle ground requires a new understanding. Trying to understand something based on the past, or on specifications alone, will no longer work.

It is like saying that a piston engine works the same as a jet engine, and can be understood using the same words, (which they can, if you boil it down to they both work on the principle of - suck, squeeze, bang, blow).

So as you started this phase of the discussion, any suggestions?

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Adobe Community Professional ,
Apr 03, 2018

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I understand your points ... and I agree with the desolation that Muse's withdrawal must create in the community of pure designer / designer.

in the same way that there are only tools dedicated to the code to produce content , I am also of the opinion that there can be tools only dedicated to the visual to produce contents ...

Dreamweaver is in the middle, he does both ... well ... he could do better ... but it is also, and among other things, why we are here ... to find solutions ... at the same time, in our problems as in our tools ... and not to sort out lice on our head ... (hey ... guys, there are lice ...) ...

<localisation>

  • French expression "se chercher des poux sur la tête"...
  • Word to word translation "To find lice on heads"...
  • Meaning "we had come to try to cause trouble for them"...

</localisation>

I have known various developers who have long been (and still are) ... my masters to think in terms of design and interactive designs ...

Yugo Nakamura ... yupog.com | net, his sites are currently under maintenance,

and Arnaud Mercier https://arnaud.area17.com/ who have both since the end of the 90s pushed the limits of the interface, interaction, animation .... in a talented and refined way.

I just say that, because developers can also sometimes surprise by their qualities of visual designers, sound mixers, and interactive designer... as well as some designers who often produce content that only they are sensitive to

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Explorer ,
Apr 03, 2018

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pziecina  wrote

tiff_meek   wrote

Oh please. I'm here to talk about the web development industry in relation to Adobe Muse vs web developers/coders per se.

O/K, lets talk about WYSIWYG and visual web site creation. Lets not talk about Muse vs code.

The problem with code editors is that even for developers they never match what one requires, and any help they give is more often than not simply a memory jerk, in that they will only suggest the code to use if you have some idea of what the code is in the first place, (code hints). The other problem with them is, is that they are often years behind in code hints anyway.

Now to WYSIWYG and pure visual site creators. The problem with them is that they take a snap-shot of what the web can do at the time they are written, also that they try to hide from the user requirerments such as WCAG Level 2, (they simply ignore them). They also due to the users they try to support, generalise everything. In that they allow the user to do simple things but never allow the user to go beyond the basic requirerments. As for semantic mark-up forget it.

Programs like Dreamweaver did in the past try to support a visual workflow to some extent, but due to the abuse of those features by those using them, and advances in things like mobile device browsers, social media, etc... the methods used became 'unfit for purpose'.

So what is required?

instead of the code vs no-code stance, maybe like everything else in this modern era there should be a middle ground. Instead of saying it should work like a dtp program, (none coder) or a code editor (developer) it would be better to first admit that the web is not the same as dtp, and that development can be overly complexed if just using a code editor.

Somewhere between the two extreme views there could be a middle ground, and that middle ground requires a new understanding. Trying to understand something based on the past, or on specifications alone, will no longer work.

It is like saying that a piston engine works the same as a jet engine, and can be understood using the same words, (which they can, if you boil it down to they both work on the principle of - suck, squeeze, bang, blow).

So as you started this phase of the discussion, any suggestions?

It's a tough one isn't it? I appreciate the predicament. It's incredibly difficult to meld the creative space and the technical space. Back in the days of yore it was easy. A paintbrush and wall - and a creative could go nuts. Technically we needed to provide a creative with paints of varying colours, and erect a wall. That was about it. Easy peasy. These days it's not so organic and the line between a technical and a creative is not so easy to define.

The internet is a very cool mixture of many mediums that need to be tied together to form a product for the consumer. Behind the scenes this is where the code comes in. It's the fibre of the wood that makes the brush that holds the paint that fills the canvas. The problem we face is that the fibre (code) in the wood is affecting the capacity of the painter (web designer) to paint freely - to express, to innovate and to provide joy and experience to the viewer. This might all seem like waffle but it's fundamental to the expression of humanity, and that is the ultimate purpose of the internet.

It's like having a human brain that can process, sort and organise information, but has no imagination. This does not devalue the side of the brain that processes, sorts and organises, but speaks to the necessity of the human mind to be expansive in order to reach its true potential in EVERY way.

I have no idea how we get there, that is for the technical geniuses. I just know that get there we must. Cheers Tiff

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LEGEND ,
Apr 03, 2018

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Thank you, at least you show you appreciate the problems.

With the web and creation of web sites in particular, the first problem that must be solved is one of terminology, as  I think everyone will agree that html and css are not easy to understand but must be understood.

Lets take layouts by way of example -

html5 has a semantic mark-up structure for the layout, in which every individual part of that layout has a specific meaning. The trouble is that it is structured and not very intuitive unless one learns that structure. I think we both can agree that designer or developer, we both sketch a page to a rough idea of how we want it to look.

In dtp the structure uses simple terms and the flow would be something like, heading, sub-heading, body text, image, additional body text, footnote, erata.

But in html5 one must not only decide if that translates to an element order of -

h1, h3, p, img, p, ul/li, p. But also decide what the flow and the relationship to each other those elements have.

So we could end up with an html structure of -

main, section, article, h1, h3, p, article, h3, img, footer, p, ul/li, aside, p.

Getting from a dtp structure to an html structure alone, and one that is understood by both groups is necessary just to define the layout, and not how the layout will flow on the actual web page, (thats for css).

To get the dtp structure to an html structure, the first thing we require is some form of graphical interface in which the user defines what is to be included, the relationship each individual part has to each other, how each part should flow, and the hierarchy of each individual part, (you can have multiple h1's on a page if the html semantics used allow).

Getting Dw let alone Adobe to think about such an idea though, i gave up on years ago.

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Explorer ,
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pziecina  wrote

Thank you, at least you show you appreciate the problems.

With the web and creation of web sites in particular, the first problem that must be solved is one of terminology, as  I think everyone will agree that html and css are not easy to understand but must be understood.

Lets take layouts by way of example -

html5 has a semantic mark-up structure for the layout, in which every individual part of that layout has a specific meaning. The trouble is that it is structured and not very intuitive unless one learns that structure. I think we both can agree that designer or developer, we both sketch a page to a rough idea of how we want it to look.

In dtp the structure uses simple terms and the flow would be something like, heading, sub-heading, body text, image, additional body text, footnote, erata.

But in html5 one must not only decide if that translates to an element order of -

h1, h3, p, img, p, ul/li, p. But also decide what the flow and the relationship to each other those elements have.

So we could end up with an html structure of -

main, section, article, h1, h3, p, article, h3, img, footer, p, ul/li, aside, p.

Getting from a dtp structure to an html structure alone, and one that is understood by both groups is necessary just to define the layout, and not how the layout will flow on the actual web page, (thats for css).

To get the dtp structure to an html structure, the first thing we require is some form of graphical interface in which the user defines what is to be included, the relationship each individual part has to each other, how each part should flow, and the hierarchy of each individual part, (you can have multiple h1's on a page if the html semantics used allow).

Getting Dw let alone Adobe to think about such an idea though, i gave up on years ago.

I think the advent of the 'way' that sites are coded is part of the problem. The 'flow' is a constraint. Perhaps there needs to be a rethink. Perhaps instead of working from a top to bottom, left to right 'flow' hierarchy we need to have options to radiate out from a fixed point that could be of our own choosing. Perhaps we need to be able to define the relationship between elements ie. this point on this container is this far from that point on that container, so that a page can be constructed in what to a viewer might seem a random way, but still remains mathematically structured from the software's point of view. In many ways this is already possible of course, but I'm talking about a more over-arching re-think of the 'typical' way that sites are structured. Perhaps ultimately it means that the code becomes really complex, and that tools need to be developed to assist coders (imagine that!). Ultimately if we code according to the common denominator (the average IQ of a coder) we will constrain ourselves, whereas if we use the power of the computer to write code that contains further complexity we have the capacity to advance ourselves, innovate and create in ways that are only constrained by the power of the designers imagination. Cheers

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LEGEND ,
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The css property for what you are suggesting are part of both css flexbox layouts and css grid layouts, (the order property).

It allow a user to keep a semantically correct layout, but change the order in which the browser displays them, and can be applied to any and all element(s) and display them in any order.

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Explorer ,
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pziecina  wrote

The css property for what you are suggesting are part of both css flexbox layouts and css grid layouts, (the order property).

It allow a user to keep a semantically correct layout, but change the order in which the browser displays them, and can be applied to any and all element(s) and display them in any order.

And therein lies yet another problem. There may be solutions available, but many coders learned their craft a long time ago and fail to keep up to date. They cannot advise the designers of what if possible, or implement much of what is possible. This is where WYSIWYG software comes in. In this way we actually have the capacity to implement what is possible in the most recent and up-to-date way for the most people. I know that this won't please high end developers who are working on the cutting edge. But for the 'average joe' this is an effective solution. Cheers Tiff

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