Offline first web development.

[BenPleysier]

A few years back, the buzz word was 'mobile first' accentuating the fact that mobile use was rising exponentially. Has this now been replaced by 'offline first'?

Reading articles like Offline-first web and mobile apps: Top frameworks and components | TechBeacon and viewing Going Big: PWAs Come to Desktop and Chrome OS (Google I/O ’19) - YouTube​, it looks like we should start to embrace HTTPS, manifest files and service workers with more to come. Maybe this will give us 'professionals' the edge over the likes of wix - lost my second customer in as many months to a wixer.

[osgood_]

https://forums.adobe.com/people/B+i+r+n+o+u  wrote

osgood_   a écrit

Wouldnt it be nice but there is a slight problem if you havent already noticed......Adobe is NOT for listening.

As I said I dont really know why we continue to discuss the fate or direction of DW, its already been sealed. To compete it would not even be called DW any longer as its got a really bad reputation, at least amongst profession developers, a newer program would have to be developed and I personally cant see that happening, given the competition, who are doing it better.

isn't that the answer that, in my opinion, should have been given at the beginning of this discussion, and not to get into controversy about the economic model and translation model between users and any other controversies ?

That probably would have been too boring - initially the deficiancies in DW wasn't even discussed until about post 16/17 .

[B i r n o u]

osgood_  a écrit

https://forums.adobe.com/people/B+i+r+n+o+u   wrote

osgood_    a écrit

Wouldnt it be nice but there is a slight problem if you havent already noticed......Adobe is NOT for listening.

As I said I dont really know why we continue to discuss the fate or direction of DW, its already been sealed. To compete it would not even be called DW any longer as its got a really bad reputation, at least amongst profession developers, a newer program would have to be developed and I personally cant see that happening, given the competition, who are doing it better.

isn't that the answer that, in my opinion, should have been given at the beginning of this discussion, and not to get into controversy about the economic model and translation model between users and any other controversies ?

That probably would have been too boring - initially the deficiancies in DW wasn't even discussed until about post 16/17 .

Come on, I know my English leaves something to be desired, but that's what appeared as a watermark in Ben's first message... integrating PWA into our approach... aren't we on a DW forum?

[osgood_]

I think thats stretching it a bit, not everyone who posts in DW forum uses DW. Given Ben now uses Wappler l personally viewed the post as unassociated with any particular editor but more as an observation about PWAs

[B i r n o u]

osgood_  a écrit

I think thats stretching it a bit, not everyone who posts in DW forum uses DW. Given Ben now uses Wappler l personally viewed the post as unassociated with any particular editor but more as an observation about PWAs

Sorry to be naive... I thought we were all working to make DW reborn one day... and so after gleaning what we needed in our professional experiences, we came here to share (when we don't answer questions) about what would be right, or wrong, to solve DW... otherwise what is the point of coming to a DW forum if we can't allow users a peaceful future... using DW

[B i r n o u]

now it's time for a second life... I'm going to be disonnected...

[pziecina]

BenPleysier​

So Ben, what do you think?

[pziecina]

Sorry everybody, but yesterday I must have been having one of my senior days, because along with forgetting words, I also forgot to post something I would have done on a normal day .

That is the W3C's latest roadmap for web applications, which includes all of what can now be done for PWA's, (inc. browser support charts) so here is the link -

https://www.w3.org/2019/04/web-roadmaps/mobile/

What maybe food for thought, is that the W3C publishes a roadmap for mobile, (most of which can be used in desktop browsers) but by saying it is a 'roadmap for mobile', it shows the importance of mobile devices and what they can do.

[B i r n o u]

I don't know how I should interpret most of the remarks in this discussion... a real divergence of views

but not only in terms of technologies, also in terms of content and communication approaches... in my opinion there is no website that cannot be ported as an application, all sites need to refresh their data regularly, and not only those oriented towards trade

CAUTION read carefully the fact that I said that the sites can, I did not say must

so what is the vision of the web that we have? a regressive and conservative web or a web oriented towards the reality of needs (whatever that reality is, we don't have to judge it)

people go to work and use their smartphone, watch, tablet during their travel time. there again we don't have to judge... the web has become that.

not being able to interact with the site under the pretext that the connection is too weak, or even non-existent, and was only a few tens of seconds, makes the usability of the site inadequate

understand a PWA approach and especially understand what the web has become (in terms of content and look and feel) is essential to continue this discussion, otherwise it becomes inconsistent

let's take four basic sites that present,

- for the first one a folk dance association,

- for the second one a baker who makes his own bread,

- a third being a blog on pollinating insects,

- and finally one last one on a teenage basketball team from any neighborhood....

you will notice that I only took examples there that are almost uninteresting from the point of view of the web of objects, or of a hyper-connected web....

and well free for us to still offer users a tool in the form of a web app in a PWA approach....

already, on their first visit, the site will offer them to place an icon on the desktop, in order to access the content more quickly, or not if the browser is not compatible, but the site will still be accessible to them

and if the user validates the option then the fine management of the cache will take over (I'm not talking about an apache management that will put files aside...)... no I'm talking about knowingly controlling what is hidden for what purpose and under what circumstances of refresh.

then each of these examples can propose continuously updated information and this...; without the user reloading the page... what for example?

for the first, the programme of rehearsals, upcoming shows, board meetings, interconnections with other folk dance associations, etc... etc... etc...

the second could announce, the placing in the shop of special breads and/or linked to the ceremonies of the moment (galettes des rois, Christmas celebrations, Sunday bread, typical and exceptional specialities, etc...), morning buns with the buns on offer, online cake reservation, specific request with particular flours by consumers.... etc. as a result, even if users no longer have a connection, they will not have a spinning wheel, they will still be able to interoperate with the interfaces and their order will be validated as soon as the connection is returned, or the tunnel exit...

the third would propose the calendar for planting flowers, vegetables, trees, condiments... the periods and areas of pollen coverage for those who are allergic to them, in real time and adapted to the user's region, the sheets of each insect that the geolocated region can always overflow, what they are useful for, how to protect them, or what to prepare for them in the garden to host them, etc......

and finally for the fourth the dates of matches and training, the festivities linked to the team in order to collect funds, the live scores during the matches, the rankings according to the results of the other teams... and so on....

not to mention that each of these sites can be linked if necessary to web cams, or/and to various and varied objects that can inject data if necessary or add to their contacts, and/or their agendas the various events ...

so once again... the visualization and connection comfort remains a major commitment, between the developer, the customer and the end users....

Let's not forget that besides that PWAs remain web apps in their own right and therefore can access a large number (growing every day) of features natively integrated into browsers https://whatwebcando.today/

of course the web has not waited for PWAs to offer this kind of service, PWAs are only the result by integrating all the necessary mechanisms to avoid having to install an application (which would be device dependent) and which greatly improves the user experience.

so the more our web app blends into the device's OS, the better the user experience will be... and that's still up to the PWAs

[osgood_]

In all this you are forgetting one important fact, regardless of what website senario you care to cite. If the user has NOT visited a web page prior to the internet connection being lost, for whatever reason, then its not going to show in a PWA. The more links a cached page exhibits then the more the app will be potentially broken.

I do not believe ordinary folk will understand why they can see only some pages of the website, they just dont have the ability to work through the process and know about browser caching etc. I can well accept that clients may want this added but again do they fully understand the concept. To me its like publishing a book with only some of the page and some of those missing pages may be critical to the published pages but can only be accessed via an internet connection, which in my view renders the book practically useless.

I see a lot of developers trying to teach PWA. A developer that I highly respect is showing an example of a post-code search application to bring back a location and address information via an API. I mean how much more stupid can it get. Think about it, if I havent actually 'cached' a post code while connected then the PWA app isnt going to return it offline when a search is performed. I don't know about you but I rarely want to view the same post-code information over and over again. It's like a calculator where you only have access to certain numbers. I guess poor examples dont do the technology any favours.

[pziecina]

Morning Birnou,

I think you have touched on subjects that probably requires a seperate discussion, and that is one of culture and developer to client responsibility.

In all the examples you give the only one that actually requires a site beyone a wordpress blog type, is the baker. Unfortunatly, (having lived in mainland Europe) here in the U/K a completely different culture exists especially when it comes to the local baker. Very few exist outside of the large supermarket chains anymore, and even in those supermarkets one would be very unlikely to find more than a dozen different types of bread, (bread rolls maybe 2 or 3).

In mainland Europe independant bakers are plentiful, and often have a wide variety of what in the U/K are specialised bread products, plus they are often open on Sunday mornings. In the U/K specialist bakers open on a Sunday are very, very rare.

So my question would be, should a developer even offer more than is required to that baker, as it is unlikely they would have customers outside of their local area. Also beyond setting up the basic pages for a blog, (for the other 3) is it ethically correct to sell them services they do not require.

As I said, these questions probably require their own discussion.

[osgood_]

pziecina  wrote

Morning Birnou,

I think you have touched on subjects that probably requires a seperate discussion, and that is one of culture and developer to client responsibility.

In all the examples you give the only one that actually requires a site beyone a wordpress blog type, is the baker. Unfortunatly, (having lived in mainland Europe) here in the U/K a completely different culture exists especially when it comes to the local baker. Very few exist outside of the large supermarket chains anymore, and even in those supermarkets one would be very unlikely to find more than a dozen different types of bread, (bread rolls maybe 2 or 3).

In mainland Europe independant bakers are plentiful, and often have a wide variety of what in the U/K are specialised bread products, plus they are often open on Sunday mornings. In the U/K specialist bakers open on a Sunday are very, very rare.

So my question would be, should a developer even offer more than is required to that baker, as it is unlikely they would have customers outside of their local area. Also beyond setting up the basic pages for a blog, (for the other 3) is it ethically correct to sell them services they do not require.

As I said, these questions probably require their own discussion.

I agree with you. This really needs a lot more thought and deep discussion, what to expect, how it works, its limitations. Only then should you, as a developer, provide somethng to a client when they know exactly what they are getting. I'm not sure every developer has such high morales, especially when being honest with clients if they know extra 'wonga' is likely to be involved. Sometime decisions unfortunately come down to desperation, just tryng to earn a living and the client is 'non the wiser' until.......

[pziecina]

The problem with this discussion, is not should Dw be able to do something, (if it's possible Dw should), but the additional comment by Ben regarding giving professionals an advantage over alternatives such as wix.

Using PWAs one can take an order whilst offline, and have that order submitted once a connection is again available. The additional question given by Ben, (wix, advantage over) is also one of 'should the developer offer such a feature', or 'what else can I offer, to stop clients leaving'.

Once even a simple implementation is offered of offline PWAs, then the requirements of the customer and value of implementing such a feature are quickly lost. Simply because everyone will start to do so, even wix. Then the cycle begins again of 'what else can a developer offer'.