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OT: Websites from Fiverr.com

Adobe Community Professional ,
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OT: Websites from Fiverr.com

Adobe Community Professional ,
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Adobe Community Professional ,
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An indication of what we are up against.


Ben

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Adobe Community Professional ,
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and without wanting to be a party breeze.... :), a Basic model, at $100 for 4 pages, and although it is in the market prices is a little expensive...

the price of the templates has dropped and the unlimited subscription has become derisory... just replace the images and text with its content... put online for free and it's youps....half an hour... an hour at the most... and that's it.

I know a few teams that do this for a little less money

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Adobe Community Professional ,
Jul 11, 2019

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BenPleysier  wrote

An indication of what we are up against.

I'm not in competition with those web designers.   I just thought the experiments yielded some interesting results  like the fact that none of the contact forms worked .    For $5 I don't expect much.  But for $100, I expect more than what a $39 template can provide.

Nancy O'Shea, ACP
Alt-Web Design & Publishing

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LEGEND ,
Jul 11, 2019

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https://forums.adobe.com/people/Nancy+OShea  wrote

For $5 I don't expect much.

Well exactly, as I said somewhere else in this thread, nothing in those examples would suggest to me a serious recipient of such a service would be satisfied with the outcome, so I don't really understand the concept.

However it just denigrades the concept that a web-developer has or needs any skills beyond waking up in the morning, which even in the UK comes across load and clear. Not so long ago when I mentioned to my dentist I produced websites I was met with the abrupt reply 'oh right, anyone can do that these days'. Already, before any skill levels have been discussed its been decided in their mind its a worthless profession.

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Adobe Community Professional ,
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osgood_  wrote

https://forums.adobe.com/people/Nancy+OShea   wrote

For $5 I don't expect much.

I don't really understand the concept.

The $5  bait is to get people's interest.  The concept is to up-sell everyone who takes the bait.

In some ways it's similar to the local market that advertises 3 dozen eggs for $1 to get customers in the door to hopefully buy other items.

Nancy O'Shea, ACP
Alt-Web Design & Publishing

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LEGEND ,
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osgood_  wrote

However it just denigrades the concept that a web-developer has or needs any skills beyond waking up in the morning, which even in the UK comes across load and clear. Not so long ago when I mentioned to my dentist I produced websites I was met with the abrupt reply 'oh right, anyone can do that these days'. Already, before any skill levels have been discussed its been decided in their mind its a worthless profession.

Isn't that how the general public percieve most things to do with the web.

People can create a facebook page, upload text and graphics, tell stories, convert word files to ebooks. All without the requirement of web designers, photographers, writers or publishers, even Adobe is on the bandwagon, with products like elements, porfolio, spark and upto last year Muse.

MS Word took simple flyers out of the requirement for graphic designers years ago, digital camaras and now mobile devices with built in cameras, make professional photographers almost redundant for most requirements, cheap laser color printers make screen printers redundant for most general public requirement.

The list could go on and on. Nothing we do stands still, but every profession and what they produce still exists though. Those who create that something that is above the 'run of the mill' will always find a market.

There is no magic bullet to fix the decline in respect for web design/development, but those who create sites just for the local businesses, that do nothing more than say who, what, where they are, are in an ever declining market. For those new in the profession, they are joining in a time of change, and must up their game, (even those in the profession should stop looking for 'quick fixes' and start reassessing what they do).

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LEGEND ,
Jul 12, 2019

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https://forums.adobe.com/people/Nancy+OShea  wrote

osgood_   wrote

https://forums.adobe.com/people/Nancy+OShea    wrote

For $5 I don't expect much.

I don't really understand the concept.

The $5  bait is to get people's interest.  The concept is to up-sell everyone who takes the bait.

In some ways it's similar to the local market that advertises 3 dozen eggs for $1 to get customers in the door to hopefully buy other items.

At $5 the click bait is misleading, well here in the UK it is. You would have to do a lot of up-selling to get any decent return. Someone who goes to the website with the impression that they can get something for $5 is hardly likley to go much beyond that threshold.

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LEGEND ,
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pziecina  wrote

osgood_   wrote

However it just denigrades the concept that a web-developer has or needs any skills beyond waking up in the morning, which even in the UK comes across load and clear. Not so long ago when I mentioned to my dentist I produced websites I was met with the abrupt reply 'oh right, anyone can do that these days'. Already, before any skill levels have been discussed its been decided in their mind its a worthless profession.

Isn't that how the general public percieve most things to do with the web.

People can create a facebook page, upload text and graphics, tell stories, convert word files to ebooks. All without the requirement of web designers, photographers, writers or publishers, even Adobe is on the bandwagon, with products like elements, porfolio, spark and upto last year Muse.

MS Word took simple flyers out of the requirement for graphic designers years ago, digital camaras and now mobile devices with built in cameras, make professional photographers almost redundant for most requirements, cheap laser color printers make screen printers redundant for most general public requirement.

The list could go on and on. Nothing we do stands still, but every profession and what they produce still exists though. Those who create that something that is above the 'run of the mill' will always find a market.

There is no magic bullet to fix the decline in respect for web design/development, but those who create sites just for the local businesses, that do nothing more than say who, what, where they are, are in an ever declining market. For those new in the profession, they are joining in a time of change, and must up their game, (even those in the profession should stop looking for 'quick fixes' and start reassessing what they do).

Yes of course you are correct. I saw the same happen in DTP and as I've already said its just not isolated to the web-development profession. Digital cameras put pay to a lot of photographers careers, certainly those ones that focused on quick turn-around PR shots. Not at the top of their game but still much better than your average 'street' photographer armed with a cheap digital camera can produce. So in effect what is happening we are mosty replacing 'acceptable/professional' quality , which enriches everyones lives, with poorer and poored amatuer quality.

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LEGEND ,
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osgood_  wrote

So in effect what is happening we are mosty replacing 'acceptable/professional' quality , which enriches everyones lives, with poorer and poored amatuer quality.

Yes and no.

What is happening is that the web site requirements has changed, but many do not see what is happening.

Years ago, companies would use an Access Db, (or even a spread sheet) to keep track of everything, now more are using a Web site/app to connect all their offices, outlets, control stock and most things that are the day to day requirements of running a buisness, but how many build sites/apps for small buisnesses that connect different locations together.

It is also no longer acceptable, (or legal) to sell a website, and make claims to the client that cannot be achived for having a website. Most $5 - $500, (or even in some cases $ thousands) websites are not really required and the old, "you will get more customers/clients" claim that many designers/developers previously made, have been found to be false by too many small buisnesses.

Even the design and feel of many websites has not changed from the early '00's, and from my discussion regarding change, it is obvious that most do not think it should. Even Birnous discussion a few weeks ago regarding which template to use, came down to a decission made for OS's that had been discontinued years ago. Someone looking for a website will not get much for $100, but the question is, 'would they get much more for $1000'?.

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LEGEND ,
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pziecina  wrote

Years ago, companies would use an Access Db, (or even a spread sheet) to keep track of everything, now more are using a Web site/app to connect all their offices, outlets, control stock and most things that are the day to day requirements of running a buisness, but how many build sites/apps for small buisnesses that connect different locations together.

Large organisation mostly business to business yes but not smaller ones. The majority of companies out there are very small, still with a limited budget when it comes to producing a website. The sensible ones spend a few thousand to have a professional presence, most being well under 10k. I don't think a lot of them think just by having a website their turnover is going to go up by 4 fold, it's more of a PR approach.

The less educated ones are turning to cheaper options whereas in the past that wasnt available and they had to spend a few thounsand or have nothing. Like I said we are just getting poorer and poorer results on account of 'do-it-yourself' - a lot of profesionals have to compete on price (which they can't) or die, that can't be healthy.............lots of very talented individuals being forced out by price.

pziecina  wrote

Even the design and feel of many websites has not changed from the early '00's, and from my discussion regarding change, it is obvious that most do not think it should. Even Birnous discussion a few weeks ago regarding which template to use, came down to a decission made for OS's that had been discontinued years ago. Someone looking for a website will not get much for $100, but the question is, 'would they get much more for $1000'?.

I'm not sure there is room for change at the moment to be honest in terms of layout/presentation. I think its peaked. I've worked in layout for over 40 years and you can pick up a good magazine produced 20 years ago and the layout is more or less exactly the same as what is being produced in magazines produced today. What does change are inks, paper, coatings, typefaces etc. The equivalent for the web, would maybe the introduction of a bit of animation, typefaces are now more abundant .

I think any reasonably produced small website, which has a CMS, shouldnt be starting from under 2k + BUT then again you could produce one for less using an automated system but you'd probably be doing the client a dis-service in some way, so everyone loses out eventually. Developer does it for virtually nothing and needs to keep filling their boots to survive, client gets something which is probably not easily extendable.

Its not feasable, well certainly not in the UK to work on £500 websites. You would need to be cranking out well over 4 a month to make a decent living and I don't know anyone that can keep up that pace year on year.

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LEGEND ,
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O/K, lets start with a small buisness with services/outlets in 3 different locations. Connecting them together only requires 3 MS Access licences, and a sql server on the web server. So the question I would ask web developers is, "how much do they know about building forms using MS Access"?, and making the MS Access code compatible with an sql server, (e.g. MySQL) on a web host server. A website would then have an acurate in/out of stock, and make it easier for the owner to see accurately what is happening, in real time across premises and on the web, (could even connect to Adobes 'Experiance' offerings).

The next item is not layout, (should be using flexbox at least) but presentation.

With the upcoming update to MS Edge, css shapes becomes a very real possibility, then comes the font-feature-settings, kerning, font fallbacks, (font stacks have become a thing of the past, but should they be?). Presentation of text on the web is one item that does not have enough attention by web designers/developers, but given that 90% of web usage is reading, (if one ignores selfies, and fun videos) making typography a selling point is a possibility, (the quick and easy site builders, cannot spent the time learning and doing).

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LEGEND ,
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pziecina  wrote

O/K, lets start with a small buisness with services/outlets in 3 different locations. Connecting them together only requires 3 MS Access licences, and a sql server on the web server. So the question I would ask web developers is, "how much do they know about building forms using MS Access"?, and making the MS Access code compatible with an sql server, (e.g. MySQL) on a web host server. A website would then have an acurate in/out of stock, and make it easier for the owner to see accurately what is happening, in real time across premises and on the web, (could even connect to Adobes 'Experiance' offerings).

I don't know, most of the companies I've produced websites for over the years only have the one location, apart from one I can think of. Those with 2 or 3 locations probably wouldn't even consider using my services. I dont think you can just go out and learn everything on a whim and hope that sometime soon a job requiring such workflows is going to drop into your lap. A lot of back-end developer don't know about front-end development, which surprises me, but then again why should it - they are probably specialists, not full-stack' developers.....so maybe rather than following the full-stack route, the future generation of developers should set out to specialise in something, rather than trying to blanket cover everything. I see that as the only way to offer a service which might command more respect and better renummeration.

pziecina  wrote

The next item is not layout, (should be using flexbox at least) but presentation.

With the upcoming update to MS Edge, css shapes becomes a very real possibility, then comes the font-feature-settings, kerning, font fallbacks, (font stacks have become a thing of the past, but should they be?). Presentation of text on the web is one item that does not have enough attention by web designers/developers, but given that 90% of web usage is reading, (if one ignores selfies, and fun videos) making typography a selling point is a possibility, (the quick and easy site builders, cannot spent the time learning and doing).

Maybe grid will change things up a bit. Its capable of more complex layouts but its not main-stream used yet but I see that happening in the next couple of years. Otherwise I don't really see any change on the immediate horizon.

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LEGEND ,
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I'm just throwing ideas out.

One can build all types of web sites/apps, but without a speciality, (user/product type) I doubt if the small site creator will be in buisness in 5 years or so, or at least not without 'cookie cutter' template/framework sites being the norm and only way to survive, (even then it will be a race to the bottom).

The problem with layouts and presentation, is no longer the restrictions of browsers, but the limited knowledge of both designers and developers. How many who call themselves front end web designers have even taken a basic graphic design course, or how many back end developers have any knowledge of what is happening in their chosen language, (especially security) beyond what they have read in a book or watched on a video.

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LEGEND ,
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pziecina  wrote

How many who call themselves front end web designers have even taken a basic graphic design course

We'll that just compounds the issues which have been stacking up over the years.........no real knowledge of coding, how it all works and no layout skills.....hummmm.

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Adobe Community Professional ,
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Has this guy got the right attitude?

I ditched frameworks 5 years ago and started writing everything from scratch. My OS isn't as secure as it could be and the TCP stack isn't fast but the HTTP parser took fewer months than I'd expected.

5 years later, I'm nearly finished with the login page and my client is furious. Hire me?

Or should he have used this workflow?

Creating a Complete Login System with DMXzone Security provider - YouTube

The point I am trying to make: no matter what the environment, large or small, the customer (boss) wants a product to their satisfaction (quality).


Ben

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LEGEND ,
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The guy in question, whoever that is, just comes across as code challenged. Seriously if developers were to actually do what they are supposed to be doing and not jumping straight into frameworks they would discover how simple much of this stuff actually is plus have a much better understanding of the process.

As for the link you provided, which uses a niche workflow, it may suit the developer more than the unsuspecting  client.  Personally l view that as immorale and simply couldnt use that myself but when desperate, desperate measures are needed, mostly l would assume by the retired developer who can no longer keep pace or an amatuer whose job somehow requires them to dabble in managing a website.

After 18 months l see no evidence that  the product you refer to is being taken seriously beyond the amatuer, retired level. You only need to watch a few of the live Webinars to see even those who have been using it from the start and have little coding knowledge  struggle when it all goes wrong, as it frequently does, hilarious.

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LEGEND ,
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The problem is Ben, and we have been discussing this for years, is that designers want a 'click to do' way of building sites, and coders want a 'everything for coders' IDE.

Which brings us back to the problem of which is best, in the long term?

Dw no matter what anyone says or does, will always be a 'for no one' program. Simply because it is not for large commercial or enterprise site/app creation. Admittedly I am now using the W3Cs definition of a small site, (under $250 thousand, which I doubt anyone at Adobe or in the Dw team considers small).

If someone is competing in the small site creation using Dw, then I would think they are in the very bottom end of the W3Cs price definition, (under the $15,000.00 bracket). In that price bracket, inovation is not going to happen, and knowing exactly how the code works, becomes secondary.

Edit - for some unknown reason parts of my posts are being deleted when I click 'save reply'.

So here is the last sentence again -

In large sites, it is necessary to document how the code works, and what is happening, as one must ensure it can be complient with any laws. Using any point and click method this is not possible, unless one goes through the code and can understand what is happening. Must point and click code, is so convoluted, that trying to follow it then document the code, wastes more time than that saved by using it, (and often brings up problems that have to be fixed).

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Adobe Community Professional ,
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I think you hit the nail on the head. There will always be the pure coder and yes, they will be in the $15,000 plus bracket. The competition in that bracket is not a fraction of the competition at the lower end. And while my customers are opting for cheap websites made by WP and Wix, I need arsenal that will help me keep my prices down.


Ben

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LEGEND ,
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What is innovation?

I would say the majority of alll websites viewable are under $15000,00. No disrespect but possibly  you may have been working at the minority end of the market where teams of developers are involved and the client has bucket loads of money to shift.

Just because you produce websites for 4k, 5k or 6k doesnt mean youre not professiinal, its just as important to know the process and take as much pride in what you produce as those who are elite, working at the top end of the scale.

The only developers l would consider unprofessional are those with short term views. Its highly unlikely that if you focus on niche automated worflows that its going to be of any benefit to you if for any reason you needed to find a position in the industry............so how could you view that category as having  a professional outlook. Its either damn right ignorant, stupid or probably someone with the attitude of moving from one profession to another once their inadequacies have been exposed.

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Adobe Community Professional ,
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A few cheap shots to which I am getting accustomed coming from you. Words that are most denigrating because I use a product that does not meet your approval (read: have never used) include immoral, retired developer, amateur. If you had used doddery as a description, I would have agreed, but that would not be fair to the other 5K+ users of the program.

In the meantime, at 76 I have many happy customers keeping me occupied.

Maybe I sense a bit of envy in your narrative . Sorry about that.

PS: Note the separate paragraphs to make it easier for you to reply.


Ben

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LEGEND ,
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O/K, lets take this in perspective.

If you are a normal visitor to a site such as Amazon, what you see is probably less than 1% of the entire sites functionality. Those working with the site behind what the visitor sees and uses are using the sites application parts, to do everything from processing the order, to the financial departments doing what financial depts do, (paying taxes, or not ).

Everyone who thinks that those employed in such sites/apps creation, maintanence and security, are in the minority, are mistaken. Large commercial and enterprise sites/apps, employ over 60% of those in the web development profession. What does change, is the web designer profession, in which the majority are employed building small sites/apps.

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LEGEND ,
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BenPleysier  wrote

A few cheap shots to which I am getting accustomed coming from you. Words that are most denigrating because I use a product that does not meet your approval (read: have never used) include immoral, retired developer, amateur. If you had used doddery as a description, I would have agreed, but that would not be fair to the other 5K+ users of the program.

I can't help it if you view the truth as cheap shots. It doesnt meet my approval for very good reasons, which l document and are undeniable to anyone who would consider themselves serious about web development, especially as a career.

BenPleysier  wrote

In the meantime, at 76 I have many happy customers keeping me occupied.

Maybe I sense a bit of envy in your narrative . Sorry about that.

Unfortunately a blight in the industry is withholding information from the client about how a website was built. Maybe they will only find that out in time. Personally ld rather leave behind  a clean legacy rather than one of being tarnished as a result of poor practices.

No reason to be envious, just now in a position where l can expose the truth, maybe others can benefit. Id like to think so.

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LEGEND ,
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Yes but how many have any skill other than updating information via a cms, that l would presume account for the majority of the 60%.  Take the bbc for example, that must employee 100s of admins working on the website just inputting information.

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Adobe Community Professional ,
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osgood_  wrote

I can't help it if you view the truth as cheap shots. It doesnt meet my approval for very good reasons, which l document and are undeniable to anyone who would consider themselves serious about web development, especially as a career.

Please back the (so-called) truth up with facts, not just emotional arguments.


Ben

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LEGEND ,
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osgood_  wrote

Yes but how many have any skill other than updating information via a cms, that l would presume account for the majority of the 60%.  Take the bbc for example, that must employee 100s of admins working on the website just inputting information.

I'm talking about those actively employed in coding, not those updating a cms, which is admin staff.

As for the BBC, have you ever thought of how the process works for getting a reporters info into a broadcast, checked for legal requirements, edited, approved for broadcast, journalist and camera crew to required location with flights and accommodation, (not forgeting pay) and eveything else including transcripts, language translators, web site, blog, etc updates.

You are thinking in what your clients requierments are, large companies and organisations, (especially those which are world wide) have very different requierments, all of which must be tied together.

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LEGEND ,
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BenPleysier  wrote

Please back the (so-called) truth up with facts, not just emotional arguments.

Fact, ap connect is not regarded in the industry as a main stream workflow so any one deploying it is in a very limited group.

Fact, its difficult, almost impossible, to find help outside of the products own forum should things go wrong or if questions need to be asked.

Fact, virtually no professional web development company will be impreesed if you rock up at their door step asking for a job

Fact, its limited in what it can do beyond a certain point

Fact, you are decieving your client by providing an end product that would be difficult to maintain unless you had a knowledge of app connect, as stated in fact 1, an 'unrecognised' workflow within the industry.

Hows that for starters?

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LEGEND ,
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Hey dont lecture me on how a large company operates, l work for one of the largest animal welfare companies on the planet, who have offices in numerous counties. Yes, its a long drawn out process. l usually have to wait weeks, if not months,  for a project to pass through several department before it arrives back on my desk. Not sure how this is related to what we are discussing though.

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LEGEND ,
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It is related in that we are also discussing ways to compete with the cheap web site offerings. Which in my opinion can only be done with frameworks and point and click.

Even then it is not a long term stratergy for a living, simply because those competing in such a market are competing against others looking for clients in that market, (my definition of race to the bottom = there will always be someone who will start doing it cheaper) so it becomes a never ending spiral of finding ways of cutting cost in order to do it cheaper.

What I think though, is that instead of 'race to the botton' start specialising in what type of clients you have. Build modules, that can add to a web sites/apps functions, and keep ahead of what is possible and happening.

The days of building small web sites as a living are becomming more and more limited, because no matter what anyone in that lower end of the scale does, soon rather than later, wix and other such offerings will offer that as well.

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Adobe Community Professional ,
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Thank you Nancy for this kind of link....  I find them refreshing and contextualizing of reality...

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LEGEND ,
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This has been covered a lot recently on youtube:

Paying People To Create $5 Websites On Fiverr - YouTube

Edited:

Opps....... only clicked on your last link. Sorry for re-posting the link. The first link I found hilarious. We are doomed!

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LEGEND ,
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I wonder how much knowledge both the clients and those building the sites for them really have.

Another example of why the lower end of the profession is failing.

Edit - Also do not forget that there is no indication of where in the world, the people offering to build sites for $5 or $100 are based. There are many countries in which even $5 is a good days pay, and $100 is very good money. Adobe did not move development to India for any other reason, except it was cheaper.

It's a world market now, even for companies like Adobe.

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LEGEND ,
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pziecina  wrote

I wonder how much knowledge both the clients and those building the sites for them really have.

Another example of why the lower end of the profession is failing.

Edit - Also do not forget that there is no indication of where in the world, the people offering to build sites for $5 or $100 are based. There are many countries in which even $5 is a good days pay, and $100 is very good money. Adobe did not move development to India for any other reason, except it was cheaper.

It's a world market now, even for companies like Adobe.

I wouldn't want to be starting out as web-developer now as it has such a low status attached to it. Only a few can command what their skill level is really worth these days. It was once an admirable and somewhat skilful profession at any level but accessibility to all and a choice from a world wide market has removed the respect.

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osgood_  wrote

I wouldn't want to be starting out as web-developer now as it has such a low status attached to it. Only a few can command what their skill level is really worth these days. It was once an admirable and somewhat skilful profession at any level but accessibility to all and a choice from a world wide market has removed the respect.

Why would anyone pay more than they have to for a quick and easy website?

There is still plenty of respect for developers, but only at the higher end of design/development, and not for those building sites at the lower end of requirements. Static sites or even those using wordpress for cms, are no longer going to provide a good living as long as the typical quality of the site being built, (that includes the code) can be built by anyone in a day.

The problem is that Dw mainly caters for those at the lower end, and offers no means of competing any higher in the development requirements, than those building the five dollar sites.

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LEGEND ,
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pziecina  wrote

Why would anyone pay more than they have to for a quick and easy website?

There's quick and easy and quick and easy. I don't see that the examples from fiverr could possibly fulfil anyones expectations.

pziecina  wrote

There is still plenty of respect for developers, but only at the higher end of design/development

There is but they are highly skilled. The abundance of positions, work, which were being filled by the mere-mortal web-developer have all but dispappeared.

pziecina  wrote

The problem is that Dw mainly caters for those at the lower end, and offers no means of competing any higher in the development requirements, than those building the five dollar sites.

I don't have an issue with any editor apart from most lack something BUT if you want to code using the latest techniques its possible in any editor. I just feel DW is not worth the cost, given its no better and certainly a lot worse than free editors. If DW were like £25 a year I may be tempted to subscribe. It has a decent snippet panel, folder management facilities but I think that should be a secondary consideration to providing a competive coding environemnt, which it doesn't. Adobe have lost sight of what competitors charge and still think they are providing something unique which warrants the cost but in this case, in my opinion, it doesnt.

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LEGEND ,
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osgood_  wrote

pziecina   wrote

There is still plenty of respect for developers, but only at the higher end of design/development

There is but they are highly skilled. The abundance of positions, work, which were being filled by the mere-mortal web-developer have all but dispappeared.

That is worth a discussion all of its own.

The year before I retired completely, we advertised for a web developer and I am told the position is still open.

We did not want much in our opinion, just someone over 30 years old, ex-military, and with a passion for creative thinking in html, css and js. The applicant was not even required to have a proven track record in web development, but must simply be able to show us what they had created themselves to prove compitance and ability, (it was for someone looking for a second career).

The starting salary was £36,500.00, so not exactly low paid, but on an equivalent to what they would have been paid in aero engineering in the military.

That is why I know that the number of web designers/developers in the UK/EU, who can work on enterprise sites/apps, is in short supply, and the standard for such are not being met by most.

(Remember my post about the shortage a few months ago?).

The work is there, but not the web designers/developers.

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LEGEND ,
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If there is a shortage of web developers then that has got to be partially down to the decimation of the industry in general bought about by workflows which are open to all and require less understanding and skill.

Web development which was once high on the agenda as a possible career to follow has collapsed and is a casualty as a result, much like a lot of other industries which intoduced automated processes, where now fewer work and even less consider as a serious career option.

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LEGEND ,
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osgood_  wrote

Web development which was once high on the agenda as a possible career to follow has collapsed and is a casualty as a result, much like a lot of other industries which intoduced automated processes, where now fewer work and even less consider as a serious career option.

If all someone does is aim for factory work, all they will get is factory work.

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LEGEND ,
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Well what was once considered skilled work has become cheap factory work, a lot don't have time or the finances to retrain to achieve the necesssry standards to jump to the next level, many just fail to make the expected grade to secure a more skilled position. Expectations and the skills required these days are much higher than in previous generations.

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LEGEND ,
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osgood_  wrote

Well what was once considered skilled work has become cheap factory work, a lot don't have time or the finances to retrain to achieve the necesssry standards to jump to the next level, many just fail to make the expected grade to secure a more skilled position. Expectations and the skills required these days are much higher than in previous generations.

We all can think of excuses as to why people find it much harder these days.

The simple truth is that to many stop learning at a certain point in life, (for whatever reason) and don't look at what is happening or going to happen in the future in their chosen profession. This is especially true in professions that have grown from the web, and its requirements.

Code is just one part of the whole for commercial/enterprise sites/apps, but many small site designers/developers, (especially those relying just on frameworks and plug-ins) do not know or care what is happening or going to happen. You only have to go through posts in the Adobe forums, to see how far behind what is possible, or how it can be done that many people are.

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LEGEND ,
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I think what I'm trying to express is that websites popping up like fiverr.com, automated process like wix, webflow, bubble, frameworks, cheap plugins of every conceivable shape and size etc have contributed to the demise of the web-developer that accepted they would never get beyond a certain point BUT still possesed enough skill to command a reasonable developing job. Not everyone can reach the holy-grail of their chosen career, a lot more fail than acheive that status.

Its a lot harder now than it ever was, not just in web-development, because of changing circumstances and the far greater skill expectations and requirements needed.

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LEGEND ,
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osgood_  wrote

I think what I'm trying to express is that websites popping up like fiverr.com, automated process like wix, webflow, bubble, frameworks, cheap plugins of every conceivable shape and size etc have contributed to the demise of the web-developer that accepted they would never get beyond a certain point BUT still possesed enough skill to command a reasonable developing job. Not everyone can reach the holy-grail of their chosen career, a lot more fail than acheive that status.

Its a lot harder now than it ever was, not just in web-development, because of changing circumstances and the far greater skill expectations and requirements needed.

I can agree with your point about wix, etc. But should that be a reason to stop learning new things, and simply accept ones lot in life. I don't think so, which is why I think programs like Dw, (or any other web dev program) should also provide alternatives to quick and easy solutions like BS, and support specs A.S.A.P. and not just sit around doing nothing to help those looking to offer clients more, (to put it simply - offer developers more selling points to the client) as better options to wix, etc..

As for not reaching the holy grail in chosen career - I never made it to director, but I'm still happy, (good pension, riverside drinking, lazing in the sun or sitting in the shade reading a book, what more could I ask for, (except even more money, more sunshine, more wine or beer, some people are never satisfied )).

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LEGEND ,
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pziecina  wrote

I can agree with your point about wix, etc. But should that be a reason to stop learning new things, and simply accept ones lot in life. I don't think so, which is why I think programs like Dw, (or any other web dev program) should also provide alternatives to quick and easy solutions like BS, and support specs A.S.A.P. and not just sit around doing nothing to help those looking to offer clients more, (to put it simply - offer developers more selling points to the client) as better options to wix, etc..

It doesn't help really as you over-saturate the market when everyone has access without having to acquire much skill or knowledge and that's the problem. It just means everyone, apart from the elite, is chasing a smaller and smaller piece of the cake, until such time as considering web-development as a career isn't necessarily an attractive option. You shouldnt stop learning I agree but given the numerous workflows and options available now where do you start and where do you draw the line before you're just in a constant cycle of learning, without it being of much benefit.

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