OT: What going on these days?? - Revisited

[BenPleysier]

In continuation of this topic: OT: What going on these days?? started by osgood_​, have a look what Adobe is doing: Single Page App (SPA) Visual Experience Composer.

Have a look at the website Target SPA Demo and view its source code.

I am with you Os, I am getting too old.

[Ben M]

It's definitely interesting Ben and definitely where a lot of development is going. Honestly I find myself in this Adobe Target realm that you posted about more and more. Not with Adobe products as much, but with competitive solutions that do the same thing on the enterprise level. Most of my development anymore is in a CMS or in a Marketing Platform that is hosting pages so it's definitely where a good portion of development is at and working with Dreamweaver keeps it challenging.

The thing that has been running through my mind lately is how people haven't used Adobe apps yet to prove how out of date Dreamweaver is. I think I would challenge some design people out there to use XD to reimagine what Dreamweaver should be in the modern web development era. And speaking of XD, that is an awesome prototyping tool btw, not quite everything I miss about Fireworks but it has picked up a good portion of the void left behind by Fireworks.

[osgood_]

https://forums.adobe.com/people/Ben+M  wrote

The thing that has been running through my mind lately is how people haven't used Adobe apps yet to prove how out of date Dreamweaver is. I think I would challenge some design people out there to use XD to reimagine what Dreamweaver should be in the modern web development era. And speaking of XD, that is an awesome prototyping tool btw, not quite everything I miss about Fireworks but it has picked up a good portion of the void left behind by Fireworks.

Do developers still use prototyping or is that mostly designers who then hand over their pretty designs to developers?

I used to prototype when it was fixed width design but since about 8 years ago I just imagine what I want and use html to create some real working pages to present to the client. I find it just as quick to write the code as when I used some static visuals created in Fireworks.

I know prototyping tools these days can do a lot more than what Fireworks was capable of but they still have their limitations.

[Ben M]

osgood_  wrote

https://forums.adobe.com/people/Ben+M   wrote

The thing that has been running through my mind lately is how people haven't used Adobe apps yet to prove how out of date Dreamweaver is. I think I would challenge some design people out there to use XD to reimagine what Dreamweaver should be in the modern web development era. And speaking of XD, that is an awesome prototyping tool btw, not quite everything I miss about Fireworks but it has picked up a good portion of the void left behind by Fireworks.

Do developers still use prototyping or is that mostly designers who then hand over their pretty designs to developers?

I used to prototype when it was fixed width design but since about 8 years ago I just imagine what I want and use html to create some real working pages to present to the client. I find it just as quick to write the code as when I used some static visuals created in Fireworks.

I know prototyping tools these days can do a lot more than what Fireworks was capable of but they still have their limitations.

Prototyping still happens. Personally I prefer when it does because like pziecina I have done work with multi nationals as well. From being around them, I can't tell you how common it is to see contractors come in and out of jobs and having things approved before trying to build at all is helpful.  At the very least it helps organize things into the grid (CSS grid/bootstrap/really doesn't matter), and gives the dev team something more to work on rather than ideas being shot at them constantly from various directions.

Ultimately with many people either working in a CMS or Marketing Automation Platform (MAP) the traditional site setup in DW is the most difficult thing for me because there is not a true integration with these platforms. There is still a ton of development that happens for those platforms with regards to landing pages and even email that DW is really lagging behind. Plus on the dev side there is a push for node.js.

[osgood_]

https://forums.adobe.com/people/Ben+M  wrote

osgood_   wrote

Prototyping still happens. Personally I prefer when it does because like pziecina I have done work with multi nationals as well. From being around them, I can't tell you how common it is to see contractors come in and out of jobs and having things approved before trying to build at all is helpful.  At the very least it helps organize things into the grid (CSS grid/bootstrap/really doesn't matter), and gives the dev team something more to work on rather than ideas being shot at them constantly from various directions.

Ultimately with many people either working in a CMS or Marketing Automation Platform (MAP) the traditional site setup in DW is the most difficult thing for me because there is not a true integration with these platforms. There is still a ton of development that happens for those platforms with regards to landing pages and even email that DW is really lagging behind. Plus on the dev side there is a push for node.js.

I think multi-nationals and large co-ops are very different in the way they work. I stilll do work for a Worldwide organisation, not web related but DTP related and yes on the one hand they are hugley thorough, precise and demanding but on the other hand because of all the decision making by what seems like dozens of departments can be a bit of a pain in the butt to work for - but yes having dealt with a large organisation they do in my opinon like to have all the 'i's dotted and 't's crossed before you can even get a cup of coffee from them.

At the lower end of the market and with less people and decision making involved I think prototyping in tools such as XD can be a waste of time and money unless of course you feel its a more comfortable approach and lets face it many developers do. So what ever floats your boat really

[osgood_]

BenPleysier  wrote

I am with you Os, I am getting too old.

Unfortunately there is a necessity to complicate things as each new generation of developers try to make web development appear to be more difficult than it really is or should be, especailly where clients are concerned, portraying it as some kind of mystical magic which we did back in the day, to justify our existence and astronomical costs to the client.

Partly automated processes arrived and swamped the sector, exposing the truth, the simplicity in which a 'stanadard' website, which accounts for the majority of websites, could be developed. This took the shine away from 'real' developers'. Clients became aware of this...so what happens geeks within the industry create more complex workflows with which to 'defraud' clients into believing this complex workflow is required. Yes its genearlly more complex to produce, therefore leveling the status quo again until the next generation and so it goes on.

The sad fact is that developers today and tomorrow will deploy ever more complex and needless workflows to produce simple websites. Let's face it no-one in this forum is going to be producing work for multi-nations, Google, Facebook, Twitter etc where these complex workflows are justified and quite rightly so. Their servers are hit thousand of times a minute so workflows are being deployed to negate this. Mangement is key so all employees, who develop, have to be singing from the same hymn sheet hence the deployment of frameworks such as Bootstrap, which makes sense, however ugly and bloated it is. Its highly unliklely that the majority of websites which an average freelance developer produces will get more than a few hundred hits a week but still they use techniques that are more suited to larger organisations.

You and I may be getting old but I personally like to think - I've been there, seen it, listened to all the bullshite and now follow logic rather than follow sheep. I guess if you work for someone who pressurises you into taking the more use a 'sledgehammer to crack a nut' approach you have no alternative but to use that approach or lose your job.

A lot of developers are really confused these days by the plethora of worflows - which to learn, which to avoid wasting time on. This leads to frustration and burn-out very quickly as they feel they cant keep up but there will always be a 2nd tier of developers waiting to replace them. As I say its now like being on a run away train.

I'm currently not taking on any more new builds for the forseeable future, unless they offer some kind of different challenge for me but instead I'm just concentrating on managing the portofilo of websites built up over a number of years. When they go I think that will be it for me. I might just dabble around but I don't think I will apply as much time to this as I currently do now, largely for me job satisfaction has gone.

[pziecina]

osgood_  wrote

"No one on this forum is going to be producing work for multi-nationals.."

Speak for yourself, I always have and probably always will.

That is not to say I know anything more than anyone else, just that I was lucky with being in the right place at the right time.

Workflows though are generally kept as simple as possible, without being dependent on any outside influences, (we originally tried it but soon realised they only caused problems further down the line). As for being too old, that problem only comes when people try to 'get clever' or overcomplicate things.

[osgood_]

pziecina  wrote

osgood_   wrote

"No one on this forum is going to be producing work for multi-nationals.."

Speak for yourself, I always have and probably always will.

That is not to say I know anything more than anyone else, just that I was lucky with being in the right place at the right time.

Workflows though are generally kept as simple as possible, without being dependent on any outside influences, (we originally tried it but soon realised they only caused problems further down the line). As for being too old, that problem only comes when people try to 'get clever' or overcomplicate things.

With you as an exception, of course, but how many in here can relate to your situation, probably very few and probably why Adobe took very little notice of your advice over the years, because you're most likely so far removed from reality and who uses DW.

[pziecina]

osgood_  wrote

With you as an exception, of course, but how many in here can relate to your situation, probably very few and probably why Adobe took very little notice of your advice over the years, because you're most likely so far removed from reality and who uses DW.

Very true. Which is why I only have limited involvment in web dev forums now.

As I have said before, the days when large commercial sites led the way and smaller sites followed, are long gone. But coding is coding no matter who does it or what it is used for, but for anyone wishing to make a career out of web development, what we are seeing now, (from Adobe or others) does not represent a future or sustainable workflow/method that they should even consider as an option.

[osgood_]

pziecina  wrote

As I have said before, the days when large commercial sites led the way and smaller sites followed, are long gone. But coding is coding no matter who does it or what it is used for, but for anyone wishing to make a career out of web development, what we are seeing now, (from Adobe or others) does not represent a future or sustainable workflow/method that they should even consider as an option.

I agree with you - we'll see how it all plays out in the coming years, that's if we are still remotely interested.

Right now, a toss up between a tub of chocolate ice cream or sitting at a computer 12 hours a  day wrestling to make sense of everything - I know which one is going to be the winner.

[osgood_]

BenPleysier  wrote

In continuation of this topic: OT: What going on these days??  started by osgood_ , have a look what Adobe is doing: Single Page App (SPA) Visual Experience Composer.

Have a look at the website Target SPA Demo and view its source code.

I don't know why you need to create a seperate view for 'products_page_2' - that in itself seems sensless as you can append the products to 'products_view_1' using ajax if you are using a database or API call, which you should be if you have a list of products. So does whoever is writing that article really understand how web-development works?

You would only need a second view in a SPA application, in my opinion, if the content in that 2nd or 3rd view wasn't replicating the 1st view - so that's a really bad example which doesn't help to clarify anything. Of course it's more suited to a details page which shows the product.