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retina display imgs

Enthusiast ,
Nov 23, 2017

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Hi,

Was reading that if you can double the size of an image and then cite the pixel w & h in the img tag (downsampling) this will suffice for the crisp, non blurry appearance of images for retina display screens.

I suppose I am wondering how that affects loading times? Is the fact that you mention the w & h somehow compressing to keep the load time at its optimum speed?

Please explain, thank you.

r_tist  wrote

Hi,

Was reading that if you can double the size of an image and then cite the pixel w & h in the img tag (downsampling) this will suffice for the crisp, non blurry appearance of images for retina display screens.

The doubling the size of the image, no longer works. That was for the original iPhone/pad which was 180ppi, currently most hi-dpi displays are 300ppi, and whilst text is not affected, images are.

Ps and most people who use it for the web, uses 72ppi as its base measurement, which has not been used on macs since the late 90's, and was never used on windows. The current base standard acording to the w3c is 96ppi, and the generated content spec now tells users to create and offer images as near to the device ppi as possible.

To do this i would suggest you read up on srcset and picture element usage, (also takes into account users connection speed).

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retina display imgs

Enthusiast ,
Nov 23, 2017

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Hi,

Was reading that if you can double the size of an image and then cite the pixel w & h in the img tag (downsampling) this will suffice for the crisp, non blurry appearance of images for retina display screens.

I suppose I am wondering how that affects loading times? Is the fact that you mention the w & h somehow compressing to keep the load time at its optimum speed?

Please explain, thank you.

r_tist  wrote

Hi,

Was reading that if you can double the size of an image and then cite the pixel w & h in the img tag (downsampling) this will suffice for the crisp, non blurry appearance of images for retina display screens.

The doubling the size of the image, no longer works. That was for the original iPhone/pad which was 180ppi, currently most hi-dpi displays are 300ppi, and whilst text is not affected, images are.

Ps and most people who use it for the web, uses 72ppi as its base measurement, which has not been used on macs since the late 90's, and was never used on windows. The current base standard acording to the w3c is 96ppi, and the generated content spec now tells users to create and offer images as near to the device ppi as possible.

To do this i would suggest you read up on srcset and picture element usage, (also takes into account users connection speed).

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Nov 23, 2017 0
LEGEND ,
Nov 23, 2017

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r_tist  wrote

Hi,

Was reading that if you can double the size of an image and then cite the pixel w & h in the img tag (downsampling) this will suffice for the crisp, non blurry appearance of images for retina display screens.

The doubling the size of the image, no longer works. That was for the original iPhone/pad which was 180ppi, currently most hi-dpi displays are 300ppi, and whilst text is not affected, images are.

Ps and most people who use it for the web, uses 72ppi as its base measurement, which has not been used on macs since the late 90's, and was never used on windows. The current base standard acording to the w3c is 96ppi, and the generated content spec now tells users to create and offer images as near to the device ppi as possible.

To do this i would suggest you read up on srcset and picture element usage, (also takes into account users connection speed).

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Nov 23, 2017 1
Enthusiast ,
Nov 27, 2017

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This is the most informative article I discovered. Many articles are rejecting and frowning upon using the <picture> method.

https://learnedia.com/responsive-images-srcset-attribute-picture-element/

Let me zero in on the nugget of important info, used in the example in the article:

<img src="hero-big.jpg"
srcset="hero-small.jpg 450w, hero-medium.jpg 960w, hero-big.jpg 1500w"
sizes="(max-width: 552px) 450px, (max-width: 1062px) 960px, 1500px"
alt="Learnedia Hero" />

So I am to have 3 versions of each image to ensure faster loading? 

Here is my specific use case:

portfolio image w: 402px x 622px (h)...  I open this up in Photoshop and with iMac retina display what used to appear as 100% and a 'decent' acceptable size, displays at half the size! So at 100% in Photoshop, it visually looks like 150-200px; looks like a thumbnail!

The 402 x 622 (actual size presented on a website) appears slightly fuzzy on the retina screen because it is "registering" as 200% magnification for the presentation in the portfolio.

I am unsure how to go about creating portfolio images going forward based on the dimensions I have. Again, perfect for non-retina - but would like to start making the switch going forward. Do I stick to my original plan of doubling my dimensions and offering those up as a small and medium option and cite as the srcset?

Thank you. Want to get to the bottom of this!

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Nov 27, 2017 0
LEGEND ,
Nov 28, 2017

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The only thing wrong with using the picture element is that older html5 aware browsers and devices do not recognise it for styling purposes, and like a number of the newer html5 elements a shiv is required.

That said, srcset is worth starting to learn and use, but lack of proper support in most code editors make using it difficult but not impossible, and the media-query like construct is the feature most people will have problems with.

We no longer use px dimensions when creating the various images, but instead decide how big we want the images to be dispayed across the various viewports, then create the images at the image size, (in inches) at the correct ppi for the images. Which in general are 96ppi, 180ppi and 280ppi.

It is worth creating a code snippet or a macro for the srcset code you find is best for you, as then you only have to change the image file names. Also create your own method of naming files so that it is easy to know which files belong to which srcset, (we place each set in its own folder). You can make using srcset, (and the picture element) as easy, (or as difficult) as you wish it to be, but once you do have a workflow using variations in image size and ppi density only takes a little more time than using just one image.

Once you are happy with using srcset, then experiment with using different images, (or cropped images) using the picture element, as that is the picture elements intended usage, and significantly expands what one can do using images.

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Nov 28, 2017 0
Adobe Community Professional ,
Nov 28, 2017

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Picture element support

Srcset and sizes attributes support

This means that in  IE and Opera Mini the picture element and srcset attribute will be invisible. In the following they will pick up on the img element so that all is not lost.

<picture>

  <source srcset="img_smallflower.jpg" media="(max-width: 400px)">

  <source srcset="img_flowers.jpg">

  <img src="img_flowers.jpg" alt="Flowers">

</picture>


Ben

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Nov 28, 2017 1
LEGEND ,
Nov 28, 2017

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The way i look at the usage stats, is that IE11 or any browser not recognizing srcset/picture will be a desktop version, so the default image is what one would have seen anyway. As i say though it is the styling of the picture element using css that concerns me with the older browsers, as it will not be recognised by them.

As for Opera mini, that one will always be a problem, as the page is built on the server and still does not allow js on the client.

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Nov 28, 2017 0
LEGEND ,
Nov 28, 2017

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r_tist  wrote

So I am to have 3 versions of each image to ensure faster loading? 

That's why most developers are choosing to ignore it. It's not managable especially in cases where a client is uploading/cropping their own images. This can only be achieved in a 'controlled' environment. Images served to different devices for optimised viewing and loading times needs a lot more developement and exploration yet before anything is adopted widespread mainstream.

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Nov 28, 2017 0
LEGEND ,
Nov 28, 2017

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It's only not managable for different ppi's using the same image, because image editing software chooses to ignore the use of srcset, as does many code editors, (Dw included).

As for using the picture element and the cropping of images, there i am in full agreement with you. It is only usable by someone who knows what they are doing, and automating the process is impossible, (maybe AI software will help, but then we would be redundant ).

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Nov 28, 2017 0
LEGEND ,
Nov 28, 2017

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pziecina  wrote

It's only not managable for different ppi's using the same image, because image editing software chooses to ignore the use of srcset, as does many code editors, (Dw included).

As for using the picture element and the cropping of images, there i am in full agreement with you. It is only usable by someone who knows what they are doing, and automating the process is impossible, (maybe AI software will help, but then we would be redundant ).

I think its just largely unmanagable.

Take for example a 'hero' image which is say 1600px x 500px for desk-top. For tablet you might want that 1000px x 350px and for smartphone you may want an image of 500px x 250px, the image being specifically resized/cropped according to the size needed for each device. I don't know how any program on this planet would cope with that because you cannot program anything to determine what part of the image is optimal for use at what size, a human visually needs to determine that.

For sure you can reduce the large image by automated workflow in pro but that's just a cheap hack and the other 2 needed may not be optimised for viewing purposes or in proportion to other elements on the page.

I sometimes use background images and use 3 different ones specifically resized and cropped differently according to which device they are being viewed on but seriously this puts huge amounts of time onto a job and I can't always be bothered, I suspect I'm not alone.

I'm not sure a client will or should be bothered if I can't be. There needs to be a better solution without having to jump through hoops. That solution is fixed pricing for mobile broadband and much faster speeds, its up to the companies that develop this technology to bring it, otherwise they dont have a product.

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Nov 28, 2017 0
LEGEND ,
Nov 28, 2017

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O/K, if you are cropping different portions of an image then you should be using the picture element, as that is what it is intended for.

As for srcset, (and the css image-set) its primary aim is for using different sized and pixel density images, which are all taken from the same image, with no cropping. Whilst all images used should be checked for quality, i can see no reason why images for use with srcset cannot be 'semi-automated'. The only reason they cannot be as far as i can see, is that doing so would throw out all the rubbish articles and information many have published, (including Adobe) regarding image creation for use across various screen sizes/densities on the web over the last 25 years.

Adobe, and many developers still think that hi-dpi images are only used on mobile devices, and have still not caught up with the fact that hi-dpi displays are being used for laptop, desktop and tv's, (choose your own range of screen sizes). It is nothing short of stupidity in my opinion to say use 1x, 2x, 3x images, (or whatever) then ignore the screen size, which can be anything from 2inch to 65 inch +, but that is what is happening.

Of course no matter what developers do it comes down to time and money, but the problem will not go away, and will only get worse in the next few years, (8k displays are now becomming available).

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Nov 28, 2017 0
LEGEND ,
Nov 28, 2017

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pziecina  wrote

Of course no matter what developers do it comes down to time and money, but the problem will not go away, and will only get worse in the next few years, (8k displays are now becomming available).

Hopefully there will be unlimited mobile broadband and faster speeds, that would solve the issue. One size fits all is good. Or maybe a small image can be upgraded to look good on a large density device....a bit like svg....... humm here's hoping something sensible comes along.

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Nov 28, 2017 0
LEGEND ,
Nov 28, 2017

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osgood_  wrote

Hopefully there will be unlimited mobile broadband and faster speeds, that would solve the issue. One size fits all is good. Or maybe a small image can be upgraded to look good on a large density device....a bit like svg....... humm here's hoping something sensible comes along.

One size fits all will never work anymore for images.

No matter how good browser image optimization becomes, a full width image created for a 45 inch 4k tv/monitor, will never be suitable for a full width image displayed on a 2.5 inch hi-dpi, (of unknown pixel density) display.

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Nov 28, 2017 0
LEGEND ,
Nov 28, 2017

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pziecina  wrote

No matter how good browser image optimization becomes, a full width image created for a 45 inch 4k tv/monitor, will never be suitable for a full width image displayed on a 2.5 inch hi-dpi, (of unknown pixel density) display.

Probably not but I can live in hope that something better than what is proposed, which in my opinion is non-workable in most cases, suddenly comes along. If you're producing a personal site or working on a blue chip company site where the budget can sustain more development involment and is going to possibly be managed by skilled developers, I think its an option to consider. But for the run of the mill website on a limited budget managed by the client, probably not.

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Nov 28, 2017 0
Adobe Community Professional ,
Nov 28, 2017

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pziecina  wrote

As i say though it is the styling of the picture element using css that concerns me with the older browsers, as it will not be recognised by them.

As far as I can see, the picture element cannot be styled, styling must be done on the img element.


Ben

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Nov 28, 2017 0
Adobe Community Professional ,
Nov 28, 2017

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I don't think that picture/srcset needs to be applied to all images. It's use is valuable for large feature images that need resizing/cropping for the different screen sizes while maintaining their quality.


Ben

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Nov 28, 2017 0
Adobe Community Professional ,
Nov 28, 2017

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there are plenty API out there that can handle the job in a very amazing performance... there is an automatic algorithm detection for the zone of interest to be crpped at the size definition...

node can handle it and the result is purely amazing...

so currently if my clients needs to handle not so much pictures, I let him handle it manually, if there are hundreds of images, the task are automatics run from a task automator and dispatch each size and resolution where it must be

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Nov 28, 2017 0
LEGEND ,
Nov 28, 2017

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As Ben says srcset/picture does not need to be applied to all images, and it is for the developer to work out how and when to use them.

As an example, a full width hero image at 96ppi, created for a 22 inch standard hd monitor, would scale without problems to an iPad requirering 280ppi, and maintain a good hi-dpi quality. If that same image could be used on say an iPhone, (in portrait) and a hi-dpi 22 inch monitor is the question that the developer should ask themselves.

The original 96ppi image may have quality problems on the iPhone, and would be of too low a ppi setting for the hi-dpi 22 inch monitor, (deteriorating further on larger hi-dpi screens).

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Nov 28, 2017 0
LEGEND ,
Nov 28, 2017

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https://forums.adobe.com/people/B+i+r+n+o+u  wrote

there are plenty API out there that can handle the job in a very amazing performance... there is an automatic algorithm detection for the zone of interest to be crpped at the size definition...

I don't see how that could work for more than one or two images, without the developer alowing the user to set some form of cropping parameters for each individual image?

Lets say that on one image, there is a vista of the sea on the left, people bathing and playing on the beach in the center, and the hotel on the right. How would an api algorithm know that the the image should be cropped to just show the sea and the beach for tablet devices, but just the hotel for smartphones. On the next image there is a vista of cliffs with the hotel in the background, but a small shopping center in the foreground. On tablet devices just the central portion should be shown, but on smartphones just the hotel in the background should be shown.

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Adobe Community Professional ,
Nov 28, 2017

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Nov 28, 2017 0
LEGEND ,
Nov 28, 2017

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Thank Birnou.

I will look further into the first link, (abraia smartcrop) as it uses the srcset for image paths, allowing one of the major advantages of srcset, (it also decides on image depening on download speed). The restriction of only allowing 2 pixel densities is a problem, as that is mainly catering for standard desktop displays and tablet devices.

I will look at the others, but not the jQuery ones, as i don't use jQuery.

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LEGEND ,
Nov 28, 2017

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pziecina  wrote

https://forums.adobe.com/people/B+i+r+n+o+u   wrote

there are plenty API out there that can handle the job in a very amazing performance... there is an automatic algorithm detection for the zone of interest to be crpped at the size definition...

I don't see how that could work for more than one or two images, without the developer alowing the user to set some form of cropping parameters for each individual image?

Lets say that on one image, there is a vista of the sea on the left, people bathing and playing on the beach in the center, and the hotel on the right. How would an api algorithm know that the the image should be cropped to just show the sea and the beach for tablet devices, but just the hotel for smartphones. On the next image there is a vista of cliffs with the hotel in the background, but a small shopping center in the foreground. On tablet devices just the central portion should be shown, but on smartphones just the hotel in the background should be shown.

Correct. No solution can do that as you would view it. You might be able to find such 'hack' solutions as the ones posted but they are inferior to that of what the human eye sees. If you have thousands of image it might well do but in a selective enviroment, no.

What you will find is you will have to use very very selective images (also hugely time consuming to find, believe me I've spent hours trying to source images which will look ok across all devices without looking like an abstract or just plain stupid, a lot do. There needs to be central focal point for a progarm to be able to home in on the correct area. If as you cited there 2 major focal points, one on the extreme left and one of the extreme right of the image what does it do - toss a coin as to which area it thinks you require?

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Nov 28, 2017 0
LEGEND ,
Nov 28, 2017

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osgood_  wrote

Correct. No solution can do that as you would view it. You might be able to find such 'hack' solutions as the ones posted but they are inferior to that of what the human eye sees If you have thousands of image it might well do but in a selective enviroment, no.

Actually i would place the problem the other way around. In that the more images one requires the harder it becomes for the untrained person to decide the best cropping of an image, and an automatic process no matter how good will never match the trained eye for detail.

I don't think there can be a solution for everyone, and with the way screen sizes and densities are changing no matter what solution we have, it will always be a catch up process.

I don't think that lets any image editing software or code editor off-the-hook though, as no matter what, they should offer some form of workflow to make things easier.

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LEGEND ,
Nov 28, 2017

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pziecina  wrote

I don't think that lets any image editing software or code editor off-the-hook though, as no matter what, they should offer some form of workflow to make things easier.

If one wants to use srcset or the picture element then it should be an option in editors, certainly. I'm just annoyed that it gets more and more complex to produce even the simplest of websites properly.

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Adobe Community Professional ,
Nov 28, 2017

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you're welcome... it's fun, there are so many toys out there to play with... most of them are githebed, so one can easly branch them and makes them evolves to better fits our needs.

well depending on the images, if they really need to be on commercial, or mapping, one still need to get them as we need from a human view. For that purpose I like to use the focus point one... either if it doesn't won any weight... tinyfying them will anyway help...

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Adobe Community Professional ,
Nov 28, 2017

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osgood_  wrote

I'm just annoyed that it gets more and more complex to produce even the simplest of websites properly.

There is more to come: Getting Ready For HTTP2: A Guide For Web Designers And Developers — Smashing Magazine


Ben

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Nov 28, 2017 1
LEGEND ,
Nov 29, 2017

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BenPleysier  wrote

osgood_   wrote

I'm just annoyed that it gets more and more complex to produce even the simplest of websites properly.

There is more to come: Getting Ready For HTTP2: A Guide For Web Designers And Developers — Smashing Magazine

Yeah, one thing I did have a bit of a smirk about is:

Concatenating CSS And JavaScript

Tell that to Wordpress driven sites where I've seen 7+ seperate css files and multiple js files linked.

The problem as I see it today, those who have some experience, know what good practices are but it's not always easy or convienient to put into practice. I'd rather have 2 or 3 css files attached rather than just the one, all encompassing, css file. I tend to have a global_styles.css file where the css resides for all commmon features to every page and an additional specific page css file attached where I need to alter the global_styles.css selectors or add unique ones, just for that particular page.

As long as you're not silly about it and keep the css/js files well organised I think it's ok to use more thah just the one. It becomes daft when 'unskillful' developers deploy numerous plugins, each requiring specific css/js files which need to be linked, which result in multiple links such as you would find in most Wordpress templates. I'm not sure if those that use Wordpress are 'underskilled' so just don't consolidate all the css into one file or they are just so happy (usually like I am) to get the project done and dusted that they tend to just forget.

I'm not sure how long I can keep going to be honest because you're on a constant learning curve which in the end mentallly fatigues you if you care, if not then one will just continue to produce 'junk', which will no doubt still work, but you'll be less stressed.

Happy days!!!!

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Nov 29, 2017 1
LEGEND ,
Nov 29, 2017

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I'm going to throw this idea out to everyone Preran​ and ask if an Adobe forum wide survey would be a good idea?

We are discussing images on the web, and in most cases guessing what devices, monitors or whatever users are actually using to view websites, without actually having any statistics to work from. That means that we have no idea what is actually required image wise by website users.

A forum wide survey would help everyone to have an idea about what is required, and tell us and everyone else producing anything for use on the web, (or not) how that content is being viewed. This would not just be of help to this forum, but almost every Adobe product user, as no matter what product someone is using these days, at some point the creation will be used on the web.

The survey should be multiple choice, and ask those completing it what devices they are using, screen sizes, resolutions, and cover not just what they use, but what they know others that they know use.

As an example, devices could be broken down to -

Smartphones, Tablet (upto 10inch), Tablet (over 10 inch), laptop (upto 15 inch, hd or hi-dpi), laptop (over 15 inch hd or hi-dpi), desktop (upto 24 inch, hd or hi-dpi), desktop (over 24 inch, hd or hi-dpi), console devices (xbox, Ps, (hd or 4k)), Smart tv, (hd or 4k + screen sizes).

Then of course we come to connection speed, (another item srcset should use to decide on which image to provide).

Connection speeds can vary so much, and are often not as advertised. So should also be multi-choice.

The first item in this catagory, should be a selection for the user to say if the know the actual connection speed, or if it is the 'advertised' speed provided by the provider. It should also be brocken down into 2 catagories, mobile and land-line speeds.

Thoughts anyone.

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Nov 29, 2017 1
Adobe Employee ,
Nov 29, 2017

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Hi Paula,

Thank you for pointing me to this discussion. There is a lot of information in your post, and I am trying to see if we can break it into smaller segments that are easier for users to answer.

Firstly, when we are talking screen sizes, are we talking of screens being used to create or consume?

I think a poll is a quick and simple way for us to get data. We could start off with one question every week, and then combine that data to get a broader perspective. What do you think?

Thanks,

Preran

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