Spatial Navigation

[BenPleysier]

On the 'other' forum, mention was made of the term 'Spatial Navigation' with a few links to explaining the term

• CSS Spatial Navigation Level 1
• Interacting with TV remote controls - Mozilla | MDN

As this Audiopedia explains (Mar '17), it looks like it is going to be another facet of web development that we should be keeping in mind, perhaps even introducing right now.

osgood_​, I am with you, time to retire before I finish up around the bend.

[pziecina]

BenPleysier  wrote

osgood_ , I am with you, time to retire before I finish up around the bend.

If you look at the old CC2017 pre-release, I had a discussion with the Dw team regarding developing and testing for tv and game console browsers, (which use a tv for display). That project rquirerments was when I decided 'thats it'.

Looks like the requirerment to develop for such devices, is going to be the final decider for many developers in our generation to retire.

Personally, I can recommend retirement.

[osgood_]

Web development has now become completely out of control, a runaway train. I know a few web developers who l have gotten to know during my time in the profession and all of them now pretty much hate the job because its over bearing with too many options, which cloud decision making and lead to general feelings of failure, which then leads to self doubt and eventually mental issues. Burn out will come at a far earlier age in years to come.

Currently lm just managing the websites lve built over a number of years and troubleshooting for a few other developers but lm no longer interested in new builds. Im out of not only web development but graphic design soon after 44 years, l've done my time......

[B i r n o u]

BenPleysier  a écrit

it looks like it is going to be another facet of web development that we should be keeping in mind, perhaps even introducing right now.

yes, it is a real fun ground.

many graphic arts students have implemented SPAs playing on such navigation (horizontal, vertical and transversal)... the visual interfaces are quite nice, a little confusing for a very corporate site but promising for the future

Node (for developers) follows closely and there are many libraries both under famous used libs as react, angular, but also directly available directly under npm, ... in short there is enough to do your shopping under the various githubs tackling the subject without being linked to any framework

[pziecina]

https://forums.adobe.com/people/B+i+r+n+o+u  wrote

yes, it is a real fun ground.

many graphic arts students have implemented SPAs playing on such navigation (horizontal, vertical and transversal)... the visual interfaces are quite nice, a little confusing for a very corporate site but promising for the future

Node (for developers) follows closely and there are many libraries both under famous used libs as react, angular, but also directly available directly under npm, ... in short there is enough to do your shopping under the various githubs tackling the subject without being linked to any framework

Your first statment, is possibly the biggest understatment I have heard for a long long time.

First, you can throw those libs in the bin, along with any thoughts of downloadable fonts and a simple 2x images being good enough, so font stacks ARE an essential once again.

Smart tv's have a bigger variation in what is, and what is not allowed or possible, than any mobile/desktop browser since NN4 and IE6, (or even the differences between a feature phone and a smartphone/desktop). Even the allowed total file sizes is controlled, (the trend of page weight getting bigger, is a no, video is a seperate subject and html5 essential) and js file size is a very big limiting factor, with some tv's being limited to (if js is allowed, thankfully only some older tv's appear to have js disabled) between 15 and 25kb in total, (not individual). On the other end of the scale js can be 500kb+, with testing on various tv's being the only way to check.

Android TV's are the easiest, (providing made within the last 3-4 years) but webOS from LG is also very popular, (and those browsers are not all created equal). Then comes 4k, (8k already appearing on the market) and don't forget line length can also be a problem on any tv above 40 inch, but an added problem is images as I said earlier, (srcset/picture/image-set is essential) which are better created using an actual measurement, (inches/cm/mm) and not pixel sizes, unless you really want to have a splitting headache every day creating them.

All that said, there is one very, very big advantage. In general people using 4k TV's do normally have fast broadband connections, so swapping content, and allowing high quality video is easy. Much more thought is required when developing for modern 4k tv's and game console browsers than any rwd mobile/desktop.

Always remember though, tv manufacturers, (and the browsers provided with) do try to compensate for the larger screen real estate, and that can catch the unwary developer out, more than the requirement for the viewport meta tag did at the beginning of the mobile development era.

[B i r n o u]

I'm certainly miss your point, but do you mean that we must throught this one (i.e) in trash can ?

spatial-navigation/polyfill at master · WICG/spatial-navigation · GitHub

[pziecina]

Basically, yes put it in the trash can, the total size of js files allowed, (that one can guarantee) can be better utilised for other features. Plus ignore any 'browser compatability' indications you come across, as tv/console browsers are not desktop browsers. Depending on the last update to a tv/console browser the feaures differ from mobile desktop, (sometime small differences to the equivalent desktop, but webOS can be a massive difference).

Also don't forget that many remotes for smart tv's have a variation on the old touch/roll ball type of 'mouse' built-in, and those using a tv browser for anything more than very occasional browsing most likely will have a keyboard, (wireless or Bluetooth) attatched.

Edit - Before I forget, due to the problems with js, start thinking of how to do something using just html and css, as most tv/console browsers are based on Chrome as near as I could see in my research, but with more limitations, (e.g. Downloadable fonts are normally a no go).

[B i r n o u]

Do you have different online tests that demonstrate your analyses, so that I can test from the various TVs and consoles that I have connected and that allow me to work in research?

[pziecina]

https://forums.adobe.com/people/B+i+r+n+o+u  wrote

Do you have different online tests that demonstrate your analyses, so that I can test from the various TVs and consoles that I have connected and that allow me to work in research?

No, all the reaserch I did was for my old employer and they have the test scenarios, questionnaires and results, (they paid for them).

I completely retired after that project, but remained on a small retainer with them until February this year. As Ben and Osgood hint/say, with the increase of tv/console/web-of-things browser use, the web is entering another new era, and I was well over the retierment age anyway, so decided it was getting too complicated for me, and 'got out'.

[B i r n o u]

thank you for your details.

It is true that the first work in space navigation began around 2008/9... but my memory is a little wobbly and it is true that at that time I had little experience in this field, I was rather in perspective between native applications vs web application, html5 was just beginning to make its mark with these two years of public recognition.

so if I understand correctly, your feedback goes back to when you were still in office. it seems to me that was two years ago... i.e. the user tests and experiments conducted also go back to the same period, or do you still have access to the tests that your former employees are continuing.

the github I took as an example (https://github.com/WICG/spatial-navigation) is regularly fed by various contributors, and the work is as close as possible to the recommendations (https://drafts.csswg.org/css-nav-1/) themselves, which are always in draft and evolving

decidedly, if we have to throw them in the garbage, we no longer know who to trust... ?

[pziecina]

https://forums.adobe.com/people/B+i+r+n+o+u  wrote

decidedly, if we have to throw them in the garbage, we no longer know who to trust... ?

The reaserch I and my team conducted started with the introduction of 4k tv's/consoles, and was continuous between 2015 and 2018, (we tested on a couple of 8k tv's only at the end). It was started when the request from users reached 5% of the user base.

The big problem we found when starting, was that everything we read was based on nothing more than developers up-scaling what they had on desktops to in theory cover large screen tv use, most of which when we recieved the initial questionnaires back, proved false. Even the tv manufacturers provide very little info regarding the built-in browsers, so we started test development based only on user feedback, (unlike most, we actually paid users to test).

I only retained my 'rough cuts' of layouts and components after retiring. Unlike mobile development one of the items we found was the problem of 'viewing distance' of users from the screen, as it presented a bigger problem than any of us expected. Add to that the massive variation in screen size, for which layouts can present more of a problem than traditional rwd.

Another trouble with developing for large screen tv's is cost, and the rapidly changing user habits. Most users, (we found) will watch videos, read and perform simpler tasks on tv's, then revert to mobile/desktop for more complicated items.

[B i r n o u]

I have tried to read between the lines your answer, but it does not demonstrate why we should systematically throw away the shared research work that is being done on the github mentioned above,

especially since the works of this github are very regularly updated and seem to be much more recent than your works which already go back several months ago... or even more?

besides, let's not forget the initial subject that I have proposed (#3)... which was...

".... yes, it is a real fun ground..... with graphic arts students exploring new interface approaches and tools available for developers exploring various ways of using them..."

on which you said that the tools should all be thrown away, without really demonstrating why in a concrete way... and your answer now is based on the analysis of use and content strategy

certainly this analysis is more than necessary in cross-platform development, but it does not answer, nor justifies the fact of having to throw away the libraries that result from collaborative work that tries to respond to the draft recommendations of the w3c.

[pziecina]

It is for each developer to decide what they use, my reaserch and conclussions are just that mine.

As for what is on github, as yourself one question -

What are the browser compatibility indications for?

The reason I ask, is that as far as I have seen,  NO tv's built in browser uses IE/Edge, Safari or firefox. So if the person is posting the pollyfill as having been tested in those browser and being compatible, my only conclussion is that they are connecting their computer to the tv and using the tv as a monitor, which is completely different to testing on a tv's built in browser.

[osgood_]

pziecina  wrote

As Ben and Osgood hint/say, with the increase of tv/console/web-of-things browser use, the web is entering another new era, and I was well over the retierment age anyway, so decided it was getting too complicated for me, and 'got out'.

Early morning in the garden centre perusing the plants, mid-morning coffee, lots of it, with a cakey-bun or two.........lunch at a riverside pub, a 2 hour snooze, followed by afternoon cream-tea with cucumber sandwiches.............

[B i r n o u]

BenPleysier  a écrit

time to retire before I finish up around the bend.

Come on... you were already saying that about ten years ago...