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Your contributions are invaluable, thank you!

Adobe Employee ,
Nov 21, 2018

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To all the contributors on this forum,

On behalf of the thousands of users that visit this forum every month, a heartfelt Thank You!

You, and your expertise keep this forum going. Thank you for some very interesting discussions this year, and for keeping us on our toes. We do understand that you have the user's best interests at heart. You have been customer advocates even before that term became fashionable.

A special round of applause and thank you to all those that took time to visit the Muse forum post the EOL announcement and provide users with the much-needed guidance they were looking for.

On behalf of people that have not apologized after stepping out of line during their interactions with you, I offer you mine. It is beyond the comprehension of some people to believe in your altruism, and in a world driven by motives, that is probably a given.

To those that are celebrating Thanksgiving tomorrow, I hope that you find joy, peace, and happiness in whatever you have planned for the day, and after. I look forward to your continued presence after you are done with the merriment.

Cheers,

Preran

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Your contributions are invaluable, thank you!

Adobe Employee ,
Nov 21, 2018

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To all the contributors on this forum,

On behalf of the thousands of users that visit this forum every month, a heartfelt Thank You!

You, and your expertise keep this forum going. Thank you for some very interesting discussions this year, and for keeping us on our toes. We do understand that you have the user's best interests at heart. You have been customer advocates even before that term became fashionable.

A special round of applause and thank you to all those that took time to visit the Muse forum post the EOL announcement and provide users with the much-needed guidance they were looking for.

On behalf of people that have not apologized after stepping out of line during their interactions with you, I offer you mine. It is beyond the comprehension of some people to believe in your altruism, and in a world driven by motives, that is probably a given.

To those that are celebrating Thanksgiving tomorrow, I hope that you find joy, peace, and happiness in whatever you have planned for the day, and after. I look forward to your continued presence after you are done with the merriment.

Cheers,

Preran

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Nov 21, 2018 2
Adobe Community Professional ,
Nov 21, 2018

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Thanks for your kind words, Preran.   This year has posed many challenges.  At times, it has been a bumpy ride.  But I think most of us are adult enough to not take things personally.  At least I hope so.   Anyway, I know  you don't eat turkey, so I'll save you some Thanksgiving apple pie .

Nancy O'Shea, ACP
Alt-Web Design & Publishing

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Nov 21, 2018 0
Adobe Employee ,
Nov 22, 2018

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Thanksgiving apple pie sounds yum. Happy Thanksgiving Nancy!

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Nov 22, 2018 1
Enthusiast ,
Nov 22, 2018

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Thanks, Peran. And those of us who come to the forum to maybe learn something new or hopefully offer workable solutions are also grateful to you for your administration of this sometimes boisterous community.

Chris

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Nov 22, 2018 0
Adobe Employee ,
Nov 22, 2018

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Thank you so much. I will take boisterous over silent any day! Looking forward to many more interesting discussions here in the year ahead.

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Nov 22, 2018 0
LEGEND ,
Nov 22, 2018

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Thanks to you also Preran for the time you have given to the forum, and the patience you have shown with many of us. We can go off track, (and often do) but it is mostly well meant when we do.

I'm not certain how much we helped with the EOL of Muse, but at least we tried.

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Adobe Employee ,
Nov 22, 2018

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Thank you, Paula for your patience with us. Every bit of help that we received on the Muse forum has been valuable. Thank you for your efforts. I understand that your advice comes from a good place, and is backed by several years of experience.

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Adobe Community Professional ,
Nov 22, 2018

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Preran  wrote

Thank you, Paula for your patience with us. Every bit of help that we received on the Muse forum has been valuable. Thank you for your efforts. I understand that your advice comes from a good place, and is backed by several years of experience.

You are being very kind to Paula , I would have said, half a century of experience .


Ben

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Nov 22, 2018 1
LEGEND ,
Nov 22, 2018

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BenPleysier  wrote

You are being very kind to Paula , I would have said, half a century of experience .

You are not far off Ben, especially if you are talking about the internet .

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Nov 22, 2018 1
Mentor ,
Nov 23, 2018

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Thanks, Preran. It is a good sentiment. But the fact is that Dreamweaver is dying a slow death. This forum has but a handful of regulars and it has become in essence, a small support medium for Bootstrap... not Dreamweaver. I sincerely hope that Dreamweaver can someday reassert itself... with its own distinct personality and purpose, not merely as a half-baked front-end for Bootstrap.

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LEGEND ,
Nov 23, 2018

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Preran  wrote

To all the contributors on this forum,

On behalf of the thousands of users that visit this forum every month

These thousands of users must be very shy...........or experts.

The figure quoted is not really reflective of the activity. Its usual to get less than 10 posts a day now. Back in the day I could jump onto the for-runner of this forum and it would be active 24/7, dozens of posts and contributions from a stream of regular and new users both knowledgable and beginners, was a good and vibrant place back then.

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LEGEND ,
Nov 23, 2018

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osgood_  wrote

These thousands of users must be very shy...........or experts.

The figure quoted is not really reflective of the activity.

I know it may sound unlikely, but it is possible that most visitors actually find the answers they want using the search function. I just wish there was some way to know what they are searching for, and if they do find the answer or go elsewhere.

Many web dev forums now are not getting that number of post of even 2 years ago.

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LEGEND ,
Nov 23, 2018

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pziecina  wrote

I know it may sound unlikely, but it is possible that most visitors actually find the answers they want using the search function. I just wish there was some way to know what they are searching for, and if they do find the answer or go elsewhere.

Many web dev forums now are not getting that number of post of even 2 years ago.

Thats true but out of the 'thousands' you would think a few more would be participating.

Its true about web-dev forums in general, I have noticed a huge drop off in activity.

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Nov 23, 2018 0
Adobe Community Professional ,
Nov 23, 2018

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I'm sure Adobe has analytics on forum searches.  IMO, Google search is much better at finding stuff.   Even when I know exactly what I'm looking for, this forum search will sometimes miss it.  

Forum posts are down everywhere except Photoshop.

Nancy O'Shea, ACP
Alt-Web Design & Publishing

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LEGEND ,
Nov 23, 2018

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https://forums.adobe.com/people/Nancy+OShea  wrote

Forum posts are down everywhere except Photoshop.

I wonder if that could also be a reflection of the single app pricing?

The photographer plan includes Photoshop and Lightroom for about $10 per month, but Dw as a single app is now the equivalent of about $25 in the U/K, add to that a web developer will require Ps anyway, making the 2 essential app $35. Somewhat expensive for what they are, and possibly driving web developers to 'other' alternatives.

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Mentor ,
Nov 23, 2018

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"I wonder if that could also be a reflection of the single app pricing?"

Perhaps that's one component. But I would bet the ranch on the ultimate cause of Dreamweaver's woes being that it has become a half-baked front end for Bootstrap. Dreamweaver used to have an identity. Extensions were one of the main things that separated it from the competition. No more. All extension developers have suffered, and because of that suffering, there is no longer the time to produce free extensions. Back when Dreamweaver was in its heyday, 30% of our extensions were free. No more. There is simply no time to waste on a community that does not appreciate the effort.

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Adobe Community Professional ,
Nov 23, 2018

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A big FAQ in the Creative Cloud forums is for more bundles.  Aside from à la carte  pricing, there's the  Photography Plan (PS, LR, LR Classic, Portfolio, Spark, Bridge, 20 GB cloud storage)

or the 20+ All Apps Plan.  But there's very little in between except extra cloud storage.

When Creative Suite was alive, Adobe had  various bundles:

  • Design Standard - Acrobat Pro, Dreamweaver, Fireworks, InDesign and Photoshop
  • Web Premium - Acrobat Pro, Dreamweaver, Fireworks, Flash Pro, Flash Builder, InDesign, Illustrator and Photoshop Extended
  • Production Premium - After Effects, Audition, InDesign, Illustrator, Photoshop Extended, Premiere Pro, Prelude, SpeedGrade and Adobe Story.
  • Master Collection - Acrobat X Pro, After Effects, Audition, Dreamweaver, Fireworks, Flash Pro, Flash Builder, InDesign, Illustrator, Lightroom, Photoshop Extended, and Premiere Pro.

If Adobe offered a mid-priced bundle around $27/month, I think they would get more takers who cannot justify $53/month for just Acrobat Pro, Photoshop, Bridge, Illustrator, Dreamweaver & Animate.

Just my 2 cents.

Nancy O'Shea, ACP
Alt-Web Design & Publishing

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LEGEND ,
Nov 25, 2018

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pziecina  wrote

https://forums.adobe.com/people/Nancy+OShea   wrote

Forum posts are down everywhere except Photoshop.

I wonder if that could also be a reflection of the single app pricing?

The photographer plan includes Photoshop and Lightroom for about $10 per month, but Dw as a single app is now the equivalent of about $25 in the U/K, add to that a web developer will require Ps anyway, making the 2 essential app $35. Somewhat expensive for what they are, and possibly driving web developers to 'other' alternatives.

Could be but I find it hard to believe that any web developer, who has clients and makes a financial return, would be put off at spending $35 dollars a month. Either other apps are way too cheap or Adobe is way too expensive. Its a difficult one because I guess no one is going to spend $35 dollars if they only have to spend $15 AND get an equivilent solution or even better. Its difficult these days, there are so many FREE solutions which have contributed to killing the market for such programs and the effort to keep them current is not worth the financial return due to lower and lower numbers investing, which is why so many smaller concerns pull down the shutters at a time when you think, this is going places, but only if development is ongoing.

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LEGEND ,
Nov 25, 2018

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O/k, lets put it this way. Would you pay for Dw as a coder, especially if you know that Dw's code editor is a cut down version of the free Brackets code editor. Yes you do get decent file managment in Dw, but is it worth $300 per year just for that?

Also don't forget that $300 is payable year after year.

If Dw had exclusive features that a coder could rely on to be updated, and meet the demands both now and in the future, then the cost vs the trouble of using multiple apps, may make it worth it, but it does not. It even has fewer coder related features than many free editors with a few free extensions.

For a beginner or part-time user, who does not have the time or inclination to learn 'how' themselves, it may be worth the cost.

Also don't forget, if you stop paying the subscription you cannot use Dw for anything.

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LEGEND ,
Nov 25, 2018

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pziecina  wrote

O/k, lets put it this way. Would you pay for Dw as a coder, especially if you know that Dw's code editor is a cut down version of the free Brackets code editor. Yes you do get decent file managment in Dw, but is it worth $300 per year just for that?

Well IF I really, really required it yes, BUT I don't so maybe those that do pay for it do........I dont know who uses it. You're right, to me its way over priced or as I said other programs are way under-valuing themselves. I pay £60 a year  (I think) for what I consider to be a better program BUT I think that is way under-priced, if it were 4 times as much I'd probably still pay for it....maybe Adobe just doesnt need to compete or it knows those that gravitate towards its products have no option but to pay what it requests.

I may give it another go or at least consider it an option if it was competively priced (other programs are setting that pricing level) because I dont feel its particularly any worse an html editor than anything else, apart from its become a bit over-bearing in terms of stuffing it with frameworks, which I'm never going to require, so I steer clear of any editor which tries to force something onto me which I dont want. I'd drop any editor instantly if they did that. I think that kind of decision making should be included optionally, by way of an extension.

pziecina  wrote

If Dw had exclusive features that a coder could rely on to be updated, and meet the demands both now and in the future, then the cost vs the trouble of using multiple apps, may make it worth it, but it does not. It even has fewer coder related features than many free editors with a few free extensions.

Yes, you're right - DW seems to be vague in where its going and as a developer I cant use a program where the producers of it dont clearly listen to its users and clearly signal their future intent frequently. Its like a rudderless ship and I prefer a captain thats on the bridge and knows where they are going.

pziecina  wrote

many free editors with a few free extensions.

For a beginner or part-time user, who does not have the time or inclination to learn 'how' themselves, it may be worth the cost.

I would have thought is was that category who would shy away from it as a beginner/part-time user can't be getting much in the way of financial return for their work.

pziecina  wrote

Also don't forget, if you stop paying the subscription you cannot use Dw for anything.

Well that's another disadvantage - the program I use lets you continue to use the version you bought into even if you decide not to renew your annual subcription but how then do they make any money...........hummm.

I dont think we as developers are always being fair to producers of software because it take a lot of skill and a lot of effort to bring something to market and if we dont support it financially some good products will not be able to continue to be developed. A lot with potential fall by the way side as a concequence.

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LEGEND ,
Nov 25, 2018

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osgood_  wrote

I dont think we as developers are always being fair to producers of software because it take a lot of skill and a lot of effort to bring something to market and if we dont support it financially some good products will not be able to continue to be developed. A lot with potential fall by the way side as a concequence.

I've said it before, if I could find a web development program that did everything I require, (or even came close) the cost would become the 2nd thing I worried about. One to date does not exist, but £1000 would not be unreasonable, (pay that for VS Pro, with free MS Office). I will not however pay for a cut down version of the Brackets code editor, which is all Dw offers me.

Even programs like Pinegrow and Wappler have a market, which I think was to some extent those who would a few years ago would have considered Dw.

I wonder though how much time and money is diverted from Dw to the Brackets project, as it is the same team who manage, (and to some extent code) Dw.

BTW - We are going off-topic again, and as we both know nothing is going to change. Dw for better or worse has tied its future in Bootstrap, and to change course now, will probably cause as many complaints as the end of SB's.

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Mentor ,
Nov 25, 2018

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BTW - We are going off-topic again, and as we both know nothing is going to change. Dw for better or worse has tied its future in Bootstrap, and to change course now, will probably cause as many complaints as the end of SB's.

Complaints can be overcome with education. Bootstrap is for amateurs or amateurs that think they are professionals. It's not going to last. And Dreamweaver will never succeed with a half-baked page layout feature. Think back to Dreamweaver 2 and its revolutionary table editor. It provided automation in both directions: create and edit.

Dreamweaver's hope is in distancing itself from Bootstrap and teaching its customers (and some of its ACPs) how web design works.

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LEGEND ,
Nov 25, 2018

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pziecina  wrote

I wonder though how much time and money is diverted from Dw to the Brackets project, as it is the same team who manage, (and to some extent code) Dw.

Hummm.... well I dont see much innovation or improvment in Brackets since its initial release unfortunately so one must assume not enough finance is going to either program, which indicates to me Adobe aint bothered if they sink or swim.

pziecina  wrote

BTW - We are going off-topic again, and as we both know nothing is going to change. Dw for better or worse has tied its future in Bootstrap, and to change course now, will probably cause as many complaints as the end of SB's.

Bootstrap will eventually die out as the new breed of developers wont want to use it. They will bring something else to the party, all those who rely on such a short-sighted blinkered approach better be ready for change or die with it.

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LEGEND ,
Nov 25, 2018

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One of the problems with Dw is that many designers think it was developed for them alone, and it has become a coders program. The opposite is also true in that coders think there are too many none coders features.

ALsp  wrote

Dreamweaver's hope is in distancing itself from Bootstrap and teaching its customers (and some of its ACPs) how web design works.

Not going to happen. How many times do we see short 'snippets' of bootstrap examples, with links to cdn css and jQuery files?

Users of this forum are no longer interested in the size of those cdn files, (or don't know the significance of them). Even Dw itself makes any other workflow appear to be 'not possible', or not desirable.

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Mentor ,
Nov 25, 2018

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Not going to happen. How many times do we see short 'snippets' of bootstrap examples, with links to cdn css and jQuery files?

Never say never 🙂 But it is dire. Obviously, the regulars on this forum care nothing about Dreamweaver. They are either recommending Bootstrap and jQuery plugins or other web editors. Then it almost seems as if when a thread gets too close to the truth, it is locked or deflected.

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LEGEND ,
Nov 25, 2018

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I dont think there is much wrong with cdn or jquery delivery. Its how you use them or not.If you just use jquery plugins without investigating how they work or how you can interact with them to change things up or even use as a base to write your own code its probaby bad, the same can be said for too many links to cdns or extensions/plugins for that matter, all help to bloat the page load. Just look at the thread yesterday which caused a spat, the amount of links to varies plugins, jquery ui wasnt even needed to produce an accordion as they already hsd a link to the jquery libary, more than efficient. Its ignorance which breeds poor and inefficient workflows.

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LEGEND ,
Nov 25, 2018

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ALsp  wrote

Never say never 🙂 But it is dire. Obviously, the regulars on this forum care nothing about Dreamweaver. .

I know I often give that impression, and maybe others do the same, but I do live in hope that Dw will become more than an 'also ran', and somehow take a positive position in web development, instead of the half finished features and the 'good enough' attitude that it currently does.

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LEGEND ,
Nov 25, 2018

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osgood_  wrote

Just look at the thread yesterday which caused a spat, the amount of links to varies plugins, jquery ui wasnt even needed to produce an accordion as they already hsd a link to the jquery libary, more than efficient. Its ignorance which breeds poor and inefficient workflows.

I have almost given up posting code now, as there are very few posts that I can see where users even want modern solutions. I find it amazing that people will say css only versions do not cover every users requirerments, (true, but!) then proceed to recommend a bootstrap 4 solution, and accept a bootstrap 4 solution which only works in IE10+.

The accordion and many other components can now be done using css, with just a little js used to enhance functionality, and they will work in IE10+.

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Adobe Community Professional ,
Nov 25, 2018

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ALsp  wrote

BTW - We are going off-topic again, and as we both know nothing is going to change. Dw for better or worse has tied its future in Bootstrap, and to change course now, will probably cause as many complaints as the end of SB's.

Complaints can be overcome with education. Bootstrap is for amateurs or amateurs that think they are professionals. It's not going to last. And Dreamweaver will never succeed with a half-baked page layout feature. Think back to Dreamweaver 2 and its revolutionary table editor. It provided automation in both directions: create and edit.

Dreamweaver's hope is in distancing itself from Bootstrap and teaching its customers (and some of its ACPs) how web design works.

Do you really mean this, or are you provoking me?

Bootstrap is the best thing that ever came to Dreamweaver and if you do not like it, don't use it. But do not bring the subject up at every (non) opportunity you get.

I know that your definition of an amateur is someone who uses Bootstrap. While you are contemplating a reply, please give me your definition of a professional web developer. Do you belong to this class?


Ben

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Adobe Community Professional ,
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pziecina  wrote

osgood_   wrote

Just look at the thread yesterday which caused a spat, the amount of links to varies plugins, jquery ui wasnt even needed to produce an accordion as they already hsd a link to the jquery libary, more than efficient. Its ignorance which breeds poor and inefficient workflows.

I have almost given up posting code now, as there are very few posts that I can see where users even want modern solutions. I find it amazing that people will say css only versions do not cover every users requirerments, (true, but!) then proceed to recommend a bootstrap 4 solution, and accept a bootstrap 4 solution which only works in IE10+.

The accordion and many other components can now be done using css, with just a little js used to enhance functionality, and they will work in IE10+.

This is most confusing, On one hand you promote the likes of Flexbox, yet you demonise Bootstrap 4 for doing so. The reason I say this is because earlier versions of Bootstrap that are not based on Flexbox, do support earlier versions of IE.

Please allow me to say that Bootstrap is part of Dreamweaver. Despite that, you are not obliged to use it.


Ben

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Adobe Community Professional ,
Nov 25, 2018

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pziecina  wrote

I find it amazing that people will say css only versions do not cover every users requirerments, (true, but!) then proceed to recommend a bootstrap 4 solution, and accept a bootstrap 4 solution which only works in IE10+.

Just to clarify, Bootstrap 4 components work just fine.  Flex layouts don't work in pre-IE10.   Besides, IE 8 -9 users are not my target audience.  They haven't been for quite some time.

I can make an Accordion a half-dozen different ways in DW. 

  • Code manually with HTML, CSS and plain JS.
  • Code with jQuery core.
  • Insert >  Bootstrap Components (ver 3.3.7 or 4.0) > Accordion.
  • Insert > jQuery UI > Accordion.
  • Use another framework or plugin.
  • Purchase a commercial DW Extension...

Demonizing Bootstrap is not the answer to anything.  I am with Ben.   I think DW is better for having Bootstrap than it was without it.   Bootstrap replaced FluidGridLayouts, Spry Widgets and ghastly MM behaviors.  I'll be very happy if I never see another line of MM JavaScript code again. 

Nancy O'Shea, ACP
Alt-Web Design & Publishing

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Adobe Community Professional ,
Nov 25, 2018

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IE11 accounts for about 2% of internet users worldwide, IE10 I imagine is lower and I'd imagine IE8 & IE9 users are very rare indeed?

If somebody really needed a fallback for IE8 and IE9 in a Bootstrap designed website, there's this project: GitHub - coliff/bootstrap-ie8: Bootstrap 4 for IE8 and IE9

It seems when somebody posts a Bootstrap/jQuery related question on this forum it can sometimes turn into a lecture about Bootstrap being limited or its for amateurs etc etc and the thread goes off on a tangent with a few people intent on hammering Bootstrap, It's really not helpful to the person asking for help in the first place.

Paul-M, ACP

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Mentor ,
Nov 25, 2018

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Do you really mean this, or are you provoking me?

Of course I mean it. I could ask you if you meant it when you said in your response to Paula that Bootstrap is a "part" of Dreamweaver. I rest my case.

Bootstrap is the best thing that ever came to Dreamweaver and if you do not like it, don't use it. But do not bring the subject up at every (non) opportunity you get.

Game, set, and match. I find it curious that at the worst point in the history of Dreamweaver, you think it has found the best thing that has ever happened to it.

I know that your definition of an amateur is someone who uses Bootstrap. While you are contemplating a reply, please give me your definition of a professional web developer. Do you belong to this class?

There are no definitions here Ben, implied or otherwise. These are simply manifestations or, at worst, simple semantics. Over on the Muse forum you can find an ACP (Adobe Certified Professional) that seems to believe that a professional web designer can use WIX or WEEBLY to make a site for a client. I certainly don't want to get into that argument. I do think a professional should have mastery over the tools he uses, though. Perhaps you can squeeze something out of that

The bottom line is that I think it's a fool's errand to base a whole bloody program like Dreamweaver on an open source library. I also believe that it shows the lack of both skill and vision on the part of whoever is planning Dreamweaver.

You say Bootstrap is part of Dreamweaver? That is so patently false I get the hiccups just thinking about it. Do you understand how easy it would be for Adobe, if they were truly committed to Bootstrap, to build a front end around it? Well I do, because we can. So there is something holding them back. But of course, if the Dreamweaver Team possessed sufficient CSS skills, they could easily write a page-layout engine with complete automation. But they don't have that skill set, and even if they did, they lack the commitment to maintain it.

So they picked a brand name. And they sold you all a bill of goods.

Yep.

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Mentor ,
Nov 25, 2018

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It seems when somebody posts a Bootstrap/jQuery related question on this forum it can sometimes turn into a lecture about Bootstrap being limited or its for amateurs etc etc and the thread goes off on a tangent with a few people intent on hammering Bootstrap, It's really not helpful to the person asking for help in the first place.

Actually, what would be most helpful for a Dreamweaver user seeking help with Bootstrap or jQuery would be for them to go to a Bootstrap or jQuery-dedicated forum.

Since this is a Dreamweaver forum, there is nothing wrong with expressing opinions about Bootstrap. Dreamweaver is not Bootstrap, and this is probably not the best source of Bootstrap expertise.

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Mentor ,
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T

his is most confusing, On one hand you promote the likes of Flexbox, yet you demonise Bootstrap 4 for doing so. The reason I say this is because earlier versions of Bootstrap that are not based on Flexbox, do support earlier versions of IE.

She didn't demonize Bootstrap for using Flexbox. Sheesh. This is how these threads get out of hand. And as for backwards compatibility, I believe our Harmony tool is the only Flexbox page builder for Dreamweaver that automatically does a floated layout for IE 9 and earlier.

Please allow me to say that Bootstrap is part of Dreamweaver. Despite that, you are not obliged to use it.

It is not a part of Dreamweaver. The CSS Designer is. Code View is. Bootstrap is most certainly not.

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Adobe Community Professional ,
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Since this is a Dreamweaver forum, there is nothing wrong with expressing opinions about Bootstrap. Dreamweaver is not Bootstrap, and this is probably not the best source of Bootstrap expertise.

In case you hadn't noticed there is support for using Bootstrap and jQuery inside of Dreamweaver, so therefore people are going to use it and  they are likely to and fully entitled to ask questions in this forum if they with, I think it's courteous to try to answer. My suggestion to you is stay away from such threads instead of constantly whining about Bootstrap. its really becoming tiresome and your tone is very condescending at times,

My suggestion to you is to build your own app like DMXZone!!

Paul-M, ACP

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Nov 25, 2018 1
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Nov 25, 2018

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The Bootstrap support in Dreamweaver is primitive, at best. I shouldn't have to explain that.

My suggestion to you is stay away from such threads instead of constantly whining about Bootstrap. its really becoming tiresome and your tone is very condescending at times.

There is an art to debate without getting personal. You would benefit from studying it.

My suggestion to you is to build your own app like DMXZone!!

We're doing just fine with just our extensions. We are a different type of company. Had we gone in the direction of DMX Zone years ago, and hired or contracted with a large number of employees, we probably would have developed our own app. We kept things small and efficient - and it's worked out fairly well for us. But thanks for the suggestion.

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