Can a Master Page contain a table row?

[Gay_Alson]

Hello again, all,

Currently, we insert a one-row, two-column table at the top of the first (body) page of each chapter. The left column is autonumbered and the right contains the chapter title (Heading1). I'm updating our templates and thought it would save time if Master Page First included that table. I figured we wouldn't be able to type the title in the Heading1 column on the body page but could do so in master page view, but that's academic now, because the table doesn't even show up at all.

After searching the forum, I've read a few related but seemingly contradictory items. One post says "the Apply Master Page function ignores paragraphs in tables" but another post advises someone to "make a landscape Master Page to hold tables".

Can I do what I'm trying to do and if not, can anyone suggest a workaround?

Thanks as always,

Gay Alson

[Gay_Alson]

<Duh> Okay, I guess I misinterpreted the post about creating a master page to hold a table -- right, the table isn't part of the MP, I get it <g>

(Plea for creative workaround still stands, though...)

[Michael_Müller-Hillebrand]

Gay,

Could you please post a screenshot of your desired layout that drives you to this complicated design? I try to work-around the »mis-use« of tables for certain layout tasks, but I know that it is not always possible. But in general you should never put content on master pages, you may have formatting over there. That is, I could accept that the chapter number is somehow part of the master page layout, but not the chapter title. It would then not appear in the TOC... and you could never create an xref to it...

Let us see what your layout looks like.

- Michael

[Gay_Alson]

Sorry if I made it sound so complicated -- it's actually quite sparse and simple (or so I thought). Hopefully, the autonumber would increment as required. The chapter title wouldn't be part of the "real" master page. That is, the master page itself would simply display the empty table cell as shown below. This "First Master Page" would only be used once in each chapter, so I thought it would be simple enough to switch to MP view, enter the title, and then go back to Body view. I hadn't considered the TOC, which is a show-stopper in itself...So I'm open to suggestions!

[Michael_Müller-Hillebrand]

Gay,

So you have a table with a shaded cell and a bottom border. The chapter title is supposed to stand right next to the number, but with a higher baseline I guess and it might even be two lines long?

I would try this with the special master page for chapter titles, assuming

a) the height of the table does not change (in case the title text gets very long)

b) the paragraph in the first table cell uses <$chapnum> as autonumber

On that MP:

1) Change the regular text frame so that it starts below the "table" where you want your regular text to begin.

2) Create a new background text frame (no flow tag) and copy the one-row table into it. Move it to the desired position.

3) Create a  regular text frame (tag "A") for the chapter title, sized as the second table cell, just on top of it. Connect it to the existing text frame.

On the BP: Change the chapter title format so it fits the new text frame and give it a generous space below, so that the following paragraph never gets up into the first text frame.

Does this make sense to you?

- Michael

[Gay_Alson]

I think it makes sense, Michael -- (I'll try to actually do it before making that a more definitive statement)... Thanks for the suggestion, I 'preciate it.

[Van Kurtz]

Here are two variations on Michael's suggestion, but they involve eliminating the table.

1. On the first master page, create ONE text frame with the usual A flow.

On the first body page, create a paragraph format for the chapter title, give it an autonumber, and put a tab both before the autonumber and after it. Set the font size and space after to whatever the title's font size is to be. Create the content of the title.

Now go back to the first master page and create a filled rectangle that you position about where the chapter number will be. Put this rectangle to the back on the master page.

When you go back to the body page, the chapter number is positioned over the filled rectangle. Of course, you will likely have to play around to get the rectangle and the title formatting to align everything the way you want it. The filled rectangle will have to start a little higher on the page than the text frame so that the chapter number appears to be centered vertically within the rectangle. And you will likely have to create a character style that you apply in your autonumber to get a different size and color of the chapter number.

The TOC works out because the title paragraph holds all the content.

2. Create three text frames on the first master page, all in flow A. Size an arrange them so the first holds the chapter number, the second holds the title, and the third holds the remaining text.

Give the first text frame a fill of the color you want behind the chapter number.

Now on the first body page, the first paragraph holds the chapter number, the second holds the title, and the third holds the remaining text flow. Adjust all the paragraph formats and text frames to get everything where you want it to be.

If your TOC is to display the chapter numbers, then you will have to include both the paragraph holding the chapter number and the one holding the title in your TOC.

[Gay_Alson]

Thanks to you both (Van Kurtz and Michael M-H). Although I haven't yet tried the second solution (will do so this morning), I see it also involves flow tag A, so I'm concerned that the same problem may arise as the one I observed with the first, to-wit:

Michael, after following your instructions, I filled the first BP with text so I could do an experiment with TOC headings. However, when the text reached the bottom of that first BP, instead of continuing on the next page, it jumped to the top of the text frame above the main page frame -- that is, the text frame created in Step 3 (and when I thought about it, it made sense because that text frame was tagged as A, which is my main text flow). This makes me suspect that any text frame I tag as A will have the same problem. But I'll keep trying and will report back.

~~Gay

[Gay_Alson]

I did the first "variation" and since it works, I won't try the second one (no need to, plus I'm leery about that A flow business after yesterday).

So for the record, my steps were as follows:

1. I eliminated the table.
2. I modified the paragraph format for Heading1 (chapter title) to give it an autonumber and then formatted it as required (font size, etc.).
3. On the MP, I created a filled rectangle and also a thick horizontal line (to mimic the table border and further offset the title).
4. Grouped those two graphic objects and sent the grouped object to the back (and brought the main text frame to the front).
5. Updated the book to test the TOC and everything works as desired.

I still have to fuss a bit with alignment, etc., but I can see that this is a workable solution. And when I finally get things the way they should be, we won't have to bring in the Chapter Heading table anymore. (This was turning into a more time-consuming step than it used to be because we resized our page layouts and made other tweaks, which is why I thought it would be a good idea if the first MP contained the chapter headings.)

Thanks to all who made suggestions and gave advice, your words are always gold to me.

~~Gay

[Van Kurtz · Accepted solution]

Gay,

Glad that it works for you. You mentioned adjusting the alignment. I suggest making that first tab in the title paragraph a centering tab, positioned at one half the width of the background filled rectangle. Then if numbers get larger than 9, they will still center nicely within the rectangle.

Van

[Gay_Alson]

Thanks, Van,

I'm extremely proud to report that I was in the middle of doing that very thing!  I had applied a center tab but hadn't yet figured out the other half of the equation, so I appreciate that extra info.

Thanks again -- this has actually been kinda fun (now that it's pretty much over ).

Cheers,

Gay

[Art_Campbell1]

Gay,

Before you go too far down this road, be aware than any changable data you put on a Master page won't be read by Frame because it's actually outside the text flow,

So if you put a chapter title on each chapter's master page, it'll show up on the first body page... but it won't be available to, or used in, the TOC, index, or any cross-refs.

So design wise, this isn't a great idea....

***

Is there something broken with the way you're doing it now?

[Gay_Alson]

No, Art, nothing is broken in our current way of doing this -- we import the table into the top of the first page of each chapter and enter the title. I was trying to be efficient... <sigh>