FrameMaker Console data

[mandrill22]

What is the significance of the (8),(9) and (10) in the following console data? Do they relate to version numbers? What useful information, if any, can I get from this data?

MIF: "G:\ScannerDocuments\Framemaker\Robert\II6001520\II6001520h.mif" (8033): Value of Separation out of range (10).

MIF: "G:\ScannerDocuments\Framemaker\Robert\II6001520\II6001520h.mif" (16025): Value of Separation out of range (8)

MIF: "G:\ScannerDocuments\Framemaker\Robert\II6001520\II6001520h.mif" (6050): Value of Separation out of range (9)

I added some graphics in FM10, saved as a MIF and opened the file in FM8 (to save as a version 8 .fm file) but the graphics I added in FM10 won't display or distill (I get no warnings about missing graphics when I open the document in FM8, despite the gray boxes...object properties says the file is properly referenced.) Opening the same MIF file in 10 gives me the graphics back. What's happening here? Ihave tried both MIF7 and MIF10 with the same results.

[Bob_Niland]

I added some graphics in FM10 ...

What graphics file format?

Imported by reference, or copied into document?

If color, RGB or CMYK model?

[mandrill22]

rgb referenced, jpeg same as all the other 200 graphics

[Bob_Niland]

... jpeg same as all the other 200 graphics

JPEG (5 or lower) or JPEG2000?

We had a problem with FM7 and JPEG2000 images (which turned out also to be indexed color B&W (R=G=B))*

I don't have FM10 (do have 9), but primarily use 7.1. I can imagine FM7.x having problems generating seps from version of JPEG it doesn't support. But this is all supposition.

_______

* We figure that our predecessors were trying (in the Jedi sense) to make more compact images by converting RGB color to B&W by desaturating in Photoshop, rather than actually converting to grayscale, and then adding insult to injury by saving as indexed color, and for extra credit, failing to pay attention to JPG version. The printed results of these bogo JPGs was a blocky 10 (ten) dpi out of the PDF, but at least you could see that an image was there.

[mandrill22]

Not JPEG2000. Somehow that conversion (MIF to version 8) corrupts the image import filter. Once opened in FM8 it stops working properly.

[Bob_Niland]

If there weren't quite so many of them, I'd suggest converting them all to EPS, which is probably the most stable FM import format.

Should you decide to do it, also go back to the original PSDs (if saved) and re-save as EPS. We routinely keep the PSD masters at source resolution, with the final crop guides visible. We flatten, crop, re-size to 200 dpi, and save as EPS. It's then easy to [re]generate a modified image starting from maximum quality.

JPEG is generally worth avoiding, both as an archival format, and as a Frame import format. If JPEG is all your camera emits, save a copy as something else right after camera download (PSD, DNG, TIFF or any other format that uses repeat-count, or no, compression), and use that as the edit and archival master.

In addition to the version issues explored in this thread, JPEG always* has some level of lossy (curve-matching) compression in use. You get losses after editing the camera image even if saved at the full res. You get losses scaling (or just cropping and re-saving) it for import into frame. You can get more losses if print-to-PDF, Distiller or Acrobat Pro Optimize resamples it again.

If your path is to critical color hardcopy, EPS also supports real CMYK that survives the GDI on all versions of Windows, including post-Vista editions with psuedo-CMYK support (that actually converts it to RGB and back).

Plus, I really hate JPEG ringing-edge artifacts, but that's just me.

______

* Some of the newer exotic JPEG variants may have less destructive/annoying compression, but they have the too-new versioning issue.

[mandrill22]

That JPEG uses a lossy compression algorithm is a given. You don't get that great degree of compression without a trade-off. These documents do not get printed professionally and JPEG artifacts are something we can easily live with, but we cannot live with HUGE documents which is what TIFF or EPS give us without discernable graphic quality (most of the usage is on-screen with one instance of printing where 300 dpi JPEGs work fine).

It seems there is no way out of this dilemna (without having to convert images to another format and re-link 200 plus images per documents; that much work is not worthwhile.) Everything points to graphic filter processing discrepancies.

[Bob_Niland]

These documents do not get printed professionally and JPEG artifacts are  something we can easily live with, but we cannot live with HUGE  documents which is what TIFF or EPS give us without discernable graphic  quality (most of the usage is on-screen with one instance of printing  where 300 dpi JPEGs work fine).

"Compression" options, including subsampling prior to, and mode, such as JPEG, are part of the PDF setup (whether save-as, print-to, or Distilling PS to PDF). I would expect no appreciable difference in size between doing the JPEG damage once, vs. doing it multiple times. I would expect fewer artifacts. We use EPS rasters for photo images. They compress during Distill.

Another thing to do for reducing file size, by the way, is to use Acrobat Pro's "Examine Document" feature to remove what is entirely needless, and possibly sensitive metadata from the final PDF. In our files, this junk is mostly image previews/thumbnails.

[Van Kurtz]

Mandrill,

Because the images are imported by reference in Fm10, saving to mif should save only a reference, not any image manipulation. Then when you open in Fm8, it should open IF Fm8 has the proper filter.

If the above is true, then you should have the same problem when you try to import the image file by reference directly into an Fm8 document. Did you try this?

Just curious, but why do you need to convert the files to Fm8 when you have Fm10?

Van

[mandrill22]

Hi Van,

I did look at the filters (*.flt files in the filters folder). The ones FM10 uses are seemingly identical to the ones used by FM8.

I need to send the FM file to document control for storage (their procedure involves being able to open the file to verify revision changes) and they have FM8.

The only time I have filter translation errors is if I work with a document authored in FM10, saved as MIF (10 or 7) and then opened in FM8. If I start a new document in FM8 I can successfully reference the same graphics that gave me filter translation errors. This suggests to me that the file is getting corrupted (as far as FM8 is concerned).

[Bob_Niland]

Because the images are imported by reference in Fm10, saving to mif should save only a reference, not any image manipulation

But the MIF would contain any attributes or transforms specified (run-around, scaling, rotation, border, etc.)

Are there any new controls on imported objects in FM10? Transparency? Stroke weight override? Color model controls?

If so, even if none are used, is FM10 encoding some default value for a new control?

Of course, the whole point of MIF is that unknown elements from the future are supposed to be ignored (although perhaps reported) when opening a time-traveling MIF in the past.

[mandrill22]

In this case there are no image manipulations except perhaps scaling, but that does not seem to dictate whether the image will or will not display (btw it doesn't distill either: gray box) The curious thing is that if I click on the gray box, the image will open in Photoshop.

[mandrill22]

FYI

After a process of elimination and looking at common denominators, the problem does not appear to be entirely FrameMaker (10 or 8). I noticed the same behaviour with another file (as described above): some JPEGs look fine, others do not display and are replaced by grey boxes.

All the grey-box graphics were generated by Photoshop CS5 and the ones that work fine were generated by CS2.

I did a batch conversion of the entire folder (mixed CS5 and CS2 images) and simply performed an open/save action in CS2. Now all the graphics display. I created a new JPEG image (RGB 8-bits per channel)  in CS5 (tried baseline, standard and progressive profiles). Result: filter translation error, cannot import graphic. I don't know what JPEG image attribute FrameMaker does not like but at least I have a workaround.

Bottom line:

FrameMaker 8 cannot parse JPEG image data generated by Photoshop CS5, but FM10 can. If you want your CS5 graphics to work in FM8, open them with CS2 and save.

There may be a more elegant workaround but this one works (for me).

[mandrill22]

The reason why some JPEG graphics displayed OK in FM10 but appeared as gray boxes in FM8 is due to EXIF metadata not getting parsed by FM8. Stripping this data off the file (using CS2 or IrfanView or any graphics editor that will strip metadata) will make the problem go away.

[AxialInfo]

mandrill22, just checking to clarify, you said:

>> I added some graphics in FM10, saved as a MIF and opened the file in FM8<<

>> I have tried both MIF7 and MIF10 with the same results.<<

When you saved as MIF from FM10, I'm not 100% clear on whether your second comment quoted above means that you used the drop-down for the file type to specify what version #?

And second, when you open the MIF again in FM10, do you get a dialog saying that the document is from a previous version?

Also, are both your FM10 and any other FM version you're trying on the same O/S (and on the same service pack level of the O/S)? What O/S version(s) are you using?

I'm asking these questions in order to help clarify whether FM10 is  correctly saving the MIF as an earlier version to start with, and/or whether there might be other platform-specific issues specifically with the graphics handling.

Sheila

[mandrill22]

Hello Shiela,

I am using XP SP3 and both versions are on the same OS/machine, but other users get the same (plus more: numbering replaced by garbage etc.) translation errors.

"When you saved as MIF from FM10, I'm not 100% clear on whether your second comment quoted above means that you used the drop-down for the file type to specify what version #?"

I used the drop-down to specify MIF10 and when that didn't work I tried to save as MIF7. The file saves successfully in both instances and the MIF opens successfully in FM10. The problems start when opening either version MIF file in FM8. Some referenced graphics do not display and when i try to re-import them, I get the following error message.

"The filter encountered an error and could not complete the translation"

The only workaround is converting the JPEG graphic to to uncompressed format (BMP, TIFF etc.), and that is not really a good solution since we are talking about many graphics.

Nadeem