What's up with tab stops for index?

[Iangull249]

Hey,

Basically, I want my index to have dots before the numbers. Pretty standard: Words, blah bla.........8.

After reading the following page, I thought I understood how to format my index. Makes logical sense.

http://help.adobe.com/en_US/FrameMaker/9.0/Using/WSd817046a44e105e21e63e3d11ab7f7561e-7f65.html

I got it to work for a minute, and then the dots disappeared, and I'm at a loss. Can't get them back, despite starting from scratch.

On my Ref pages I have:

................... 1, 2–3
    ................. Level2IX

The above paragraphs are formatted as Level1IX, and Level2IX, respectively, on the Ref Pages. When I go to the body pages and click on the text it seems that the correct info is in the Paragraph Designer, BUT NO DOTS or tabs come up.

Is there something I'm missing? I don't get why this can be so tricky? (Sorry, I'm a little frustrated at this point).

(By the way, I do hit Apply and then Update All on the Ref Pages, in the Paragraph Designer.)

Thanks,
Ian

[peter minneapolis]

Iangull249 wrote:

Hey,

Basically, I want my index to have dots before the numbers. Pretty standard: Words, blah bla.........8.

After reading the following page, I thought I understood how to format my index. Makes logical sense.

http://help.adobe.com/en_US/FrameMaker/9.0/Using/WSd817046a44e105e21e6 3e3d11ab7f7561e-7f65.html

I got it to work for a minute, and then the dots disappeared, and I'm at a loss. Can't get them back, despite starting from scratch.

On my Ref pages I have:

................... 1, 2–3
    ................. Level2IX

The above paragraphs are formatted as Level1IX, and Level2IX, respectively, on the Ref Pages. When I go to the body pages and click on the text it seems that the correct info is in the Paragraph Designer, BUT NO DOTS or tabs come up.

Is there something I'm missing? I don't get why this can be so tricky? (Sorry, I'm a little frustrated at this point).

(By the way, I do hit Apply and then Update All on the Ref Pages, in the Paragraph Designer.)

Thanks,
Ian

The problem may be just one of those "well, that's how it works" things, or it may be something else.

I'm thinking of the problem that affects tabs and tab stops, when the width of the generated list's text frame on the body page is narrower than the generated list's specification text frame on the reference page.

FrameMaker's tab stops are "absolute," unlike almost every other tab stop you've seen; those are "relative." In FrameMaker-ese this means that the first (leftmost) tab character is absolutely connected to the first (leftmost) tab stop in the paragraph's format, and, naturally, the second goes with the second, etc.

If you type a tab character, it tried to go to the tab stop it's connected to. So, if the first tab character you type in the first line of a paragraph is to the left of the first tab stop, the text jumps to that tab stop, and you keep typing. The second tab character you type tries to go to the second tab stop, and so on.

However, if the typing has passed (gone to the right of) its tab stop, unlike relative tab behavior which goes to the next available tab stop, in FrameMaker that tab is dead. It's a zero-width lurker. If you type a second tab character at the same place as the dead first tab character, if the second tab stop is to the right of this tab character, the typing will jump to the tab stop, and so on.

Well, suppose you create a right-aligned tab stop at a fixed position on the line, say 6.5", about where the default reference page text frame ends, and you define the rest of its paragraph properties as you like, you'll expect everything on the body page created by generating a list or index from that reference page. Good thinking. But NOOOOOOOOOT necessarily true. If the main text frame in the generated list or index document has been narrowed, that right-aligned tab stop will be outside the margin, and stuff will act silly.

Moral: it's always a good idea to define tab stop positions in the exact text frame where they will appear. Usually, there's no problem, except when the paragraphs are defined in the text frame on the reference page. It's not always the same width as the document page on which it places generated text.

If this isn't the problem, I'm out of ideas. Probably something that's easier to explain<G>.

HTH

Regards,

Peter

_______________________

Peter Gold

KnowHow ProServices

[Be.eM]

peter at knowhowpro wrote:

If this isn't the problem, I'm out of ideas. Probably something that's easier to explain<G>.

I think it's easier. The tabs in the index text don't show up once you've done formatting on the reference pages. They show up, when you've done formatting on the reference page AND regenerate the index 🙂

Bernd

[peter minneapolis]

Be.eM wrote:

peter at knowhowpro wrote:

If this isn't the problem, I'm out of ideas. Probably something that's easier to explain<G>.

I think it's easier. The tabs in the index text don't show up once you've done formatting on the reference pages. They show up, when you've done formatting on the reference page AND regenerate the index 🙂

Bernd

Of course! Sorry if I wasn't clear. I assumed that since the problem was apparent in the generated index, it was necessary to fix the source and see the result in the generated file.

Regards,

Peter

_______________________

Peter Gold

KnowHow ProServices

[Be.eM]

peter at knowhowpro wrote:

Of course! Sorry if I wasn't clear. I assumed that since the problem was apparent in the generated index, it was necessary to fix the source and see the result in the generated file.

Sure, that's the way it works. WE know that. But the not-so-experienced user generates his (first?) index, reads about formatting on the reference pages, does this, and wants to see the result on the body pages. The next step is not necessarily obvious: the tabs need to be "woven" into the index entries, and this happens by regenerating the index, and not only by defining the formats on the reference page. But I think it's possible to just miss this step, because you are already working on a (previously) generated index. One might think it's sufficient to generate once.

Bernd

[peter minneapolis]

Can you post a screen shot of the reference page setup?

Regards,

Peter

_______________________

Peter Gold

KnowHow ProServices

[Iangull249]

Hey Everybody,

First of all, many thanks for the help.

I thought I was understanding the issue more, and it was going to work, but still no luck. Here are some screen shots:

One thing I did figure out is that if I go onto the Index Body Page and hit tab before each number, they will format correctly. But that's an unacceptable workflow for the long term.

[Arnis Gubins]

You appear to have two lines for the SeparatorsIX entry. Delete the first one without the tab-leader and then re-generate the index.

[Iangull249]

Ok, I think I figured out the problem. However, it makes no sense yet.

I needed to apply the New Tab Stop to the "SeparatorsIX" paragraph tag (Reference Pages). This somehow then magically updates the Level1IX and Level2IX paragraph tags on the Body Pages.

Before, I was trying to modify the Level1IX tag on the Reference Page, for the Level1IX tag on the Body Page.

I don't know how the relationship between SeparatorsIX and Level1IX / Level2IX is set up. Anyone else get this?

At any rate, it's working "predictably" now.

-Ian

[peter minneapolis]

Iangull249 wrote:

Ok, I think I figured out the problem. However, it makes no sense yet.

I needed to apply the New Tab Stop to the "SeparatorsIX" paragraph tag (Reference Pages). This somehow then magically updates the Level1IX and Level2IX paragraph tags on the Body Pages.

Before, I was trying to modify the Level1IX tag on the Reference Page, for the Level1IX tag on the Body Page.

I don't know how the relationship between SeparatorsIX and Level1IX / Level2IX is set up. Anyone else get this?

At any rate, it's working "predictably" now.

-Ian

OK, I figured it out!

The topic, "Edit special text flow for a list or index," in the FrameMaker 9 manual doesn't drop the last shoe! The example shows dotted tab leaders, but it doesn't state, or illustrate, that to create the tab effects - leader, leaderless, whatever - you need to actually TYPE IN A TAB CHARACTER BEFORE THE <$pagenum> BUILDING BLOCK!!! Perhaps the tab character is present, but the invisible text symbols don't show it. The dotted leaders probably mean that the tab there.

So, you need to type a tab character as noted in bold above. This will advance the <$pagenum> building block to the right margin of the index's special text flow on the reference page. You'll see the tab take effect if there's a proper tab stop defined for it in the paragraph format of the prototype line for each paragraph style the TOC will extract; i.e, if you specify Heading1 in the document to be extracted by the TOC, it becomes Heading1TOC when you generate. These *TOC paragraph formats on the reference page are prototypes for what  FrameMaker will do with the extracted paragraphs, in the generated TOC. If you type a tab character in to the line, it will be used when the building blocks extract their stuff on the TOC document page.

After you put in the tabs on the reference page, regenerate the TOC because it's a static document - although paragraph formatting changes performed on the reference page prototype appear on the body page, the tabs need to be generated into the body page. Tabs can't magically migrate to the body page from the reference page.

That you can cause the dotted leaders when you type a tab character into the body page generated entry means that your reference page prototypes are lacking the tabs they need.

I'm not sure if the online version of the topic in the manual is closed to comments, but once you get it working, please post a comment for the topic. Whether it's closed or not, please file a documentation bug at www.adobe.com/cfusion/mmform/index.cfm?name=wishform

It would have been easier for all of us to have diagnosed the problem if you'd been able to post a screen shot of the reference page with View > Text Symbols toggled to show the symbols.

HTH

Regards,

Peter

_______________________

Peter Gold

KnowHow ProServices