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Character format overrides

Community Beginner ,
Apr 25, 2018

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I am a new Framemaker user, using Framemaker 2015.

I wanted to see what Framemaker would do if I did "update all" on a character tag in the character designer while there were character format overrides in the text. But I wasn't able to create an override and I don't understand why....

Here's what I did:

- I have a character style called Emphasis which is AS IS except for the angle which is "italic"

- I applied the style to a sentence using the character catalog

- I highlighted two words in the sentence

- In the character designer for the Emphasis style I noticed that the fields were no longer "AS IS"...they reflected the properties of the highlighted text instead

- I changed the weight to bold and hit "Apply", expecting to create an override. The two words I highlighted changed to bold.

- But when I do a Find/Change looking for "character format overrides" I don't find any overrides.                

I'm wondering why this isn't considered an override....? Any ideas? Is it because the style weight is "AS IS"?

As I said, I'm trying to see what FM does when I do an "update all" on a character tag while there are overrides in the text. I am expecting FM to come up with a dialog asking if I want to retain or remove overrides....but I can't seem to create an override to test this!  I'd appreciate any opinions... thanks.

Correct answer by Matt S - Tech Comm Tools | Adobe Community Professional

Hi Tony, thanks for letting me take a peek at your doc.

A recap: Because your character tag still had As Is as the value for Weight, there was no override to be found (Find/Change) or removed (Character Designer).

Interestingly, we did find a subtle bug in Fm 2015 with the Remove Overrides option, but since Fm 2015 is already out of date, I wouldn't expect a fix for that issue anytime soon!

-Matt

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Character format overrides

Community Beginner ,
Apr 25, 2018

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I am a new Framemaker user, using Framemaker 2015.

I wanted to see what Framemaker would do if I did "update all" on a character tag in the character designer while there were character format overrides in the text. But I wasn't able to create an override and I don't understand why....

Here's what I did:

- I have a character style called Emphasis which is AS IS except for the angle which is "italic"

- I applied the style to a sentence using the character catalog

- I highlighted two words in the sentence

- In the character designer for the Emphasis style I noticed that the fields were no longer "AS IS"...they reflected the properties of the highlighted text instead

- I changed the weight to bold and hit "Apply", expecting to create an override. The two words I highlighted changed to bold.

- But when I do a Find/Change looking for "character format overrides" I don't find any overrides.                

I'm wondering why this isn't considered an override....? Any ideas? Is it because the style weight is "AS IS"?

As I said, I'm trying to see what FM does when I do an "update all" on a character tag while there are overrides in the text. I am expecting FM to come up with a dialog asking if I want to retain or remove overrides....but I can't seem to create an override to test this!  I'd appreciate any opinions... thanks.

Correct answer by Matt S - Tech Comm Tools | Adobe Community Professional

Hi Tony, thanks for letting me take a peek at your doc.

A recap: Because your character tag still had As Is as the value for Weight, there was no override to be found (Find/Change) or removed (Character Designer).

Interestingly, we did find a subtle bug in Fm 2015 with the Remove Overrides option, but since Fm 2015 is already out of date, I wouldn't expect a fix for that issue anytime soon!

-Matt

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Apr 25, 2018 0
Adobe Community Professional ,
Apr 25, 2018

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I'd highly recommend picking up one of Matt R Sullivan's FM guides - they're like FM bibles & will probably answer all of your questions.

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Apr 25, 2018 0
Adobe Community Professional ,
Apr 25, 2018

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Hi Tony:

I wanted to see what Framemaker would do if I did "update all" on a character tag in the character designer while there were character format overrides in the text

FrameMaker will display a message asking if you want to retain or remove overrides.

But I wasn't able to create an override and I don't understand why

In any of the Designers, selecting the object that has been assigned a tag (i.e., like highlighting text that was assigned Emphasis in the Character Designer), making a change (i.e., perhaps you set the color to red), and then clicking Apply (vs Update All) will introduce an override. Now, click in an other instance of Emphasis, make another edit to the format and click Update All. Then the remove or retain overrides message will appear.

I teach my students to use Apply to preview a change, but to always follow up with Update All (Update Style in Fm 2017) once they are satisfied with the formatting.

~Barb

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Apr 25, 2018 0
Community Beginner ,
Apr 25, 2018

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Hi Barb

I am not getting the message asking if I want to remove or retain overrides.

After following the steps I outlined in my original post, I then clicked outside my text (to restore the Character Designer for the Emphasis style to mostly "as is"), and made another change to the Emphasis style (to the colour) and did an "update all".....and I did not get the message about the overrides.


So I am perplexed.  By everything I have read I should have an override.

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Apr 25, 2018 0
Adobe Community Professional ,
Apr 25, 2018

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Hi Tony,

Following on what Barb wrote, you don't find an override because (as you suspected) the character tag still has its weight defined as Bold. If you were to click outside the text frame, then use the Character Designer to redefine the weight of Emphasis to Regular, you'd get the behavior you were expecting.

I'm wondering why this isn't considered an override....? Any ideas? Is it because the style weight is "AS IS"?

Since you're new to FrameMaker, you might want to check out my free FrameMaker course, Introduction to FrameMaker. The specific question you asked isn't covered there, but it will get you oriented to some of the best practices I recommend to all my FrameMaker students.

You can check out the course at Tech Comm Tools Free Introduction to FrameMaker course

-Matt

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Apr 25, 2018 0
Adobe Community Professional ,
Apr 25, 2018

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Hi Tony:

No worries. Let's try it one more time:

  1. Assign Emphasis to three or more non-sequential text strings in a paragraph.
  2. Highlight one of the strings.
  3. In Character Designer, press Shift + F8 to set Window to As Is and change the color to Red. Click Apply.
  4. Now, highlight a different occurrence of Emphasis.
  5. In Character Designer, press Shift + F8 to set Window to As Is and change the color to Blue and click Update All.

FrameMaker will pop up with the question because it will see that one of strings using Emphasis is red. Remove will change all—including the red one—to blue. Retain will change all except the red one to blue.

This is one of the lessons from my Intro to Fm class—I know from teaching Fm for 26 years that overrides—along with As Is—are baffling to new users. We address both fairly quickly.

~Barb

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Apr 25, 2018 0
Community Beginner ,
Apr 25, 2018

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Hi Barb. I understand your example but am still having trouble understanding mine.

I am finding some strange behaviour - using FM 2015. Please bear with me as I outline what I am seeing.

1. Apply the Emphasis style to a sentence. The style is all As Is except for the angle which is italic.

2. highlight part of the sentence.

3. (optional - the results below don't seem to vary whether you do this step or not) In the Character Designer, click Shift+F8 to set the window to as is

4. In the Emphasis style, in the character designer, change the weight to bold, and click Apply. Theoretically this creates an override?

5. In the Find/Change pod, search for a character format override. None is found.

6. click outside the text to set the character designer to mostly As Is

7. Open the Emphasis style in the character designer and change the weight to Regular and click Update All.

8. Framemaker asks if I want to retain or remove overrides!

9. I say Retain

10. The bold text is reverted to regular weight - it is not retained.

There are several puzzling things here for me.  In step 5 why doesn't it find an override?  And if there is no override, why does FM ask me about overrides in step 8?  and lastly, why isn't the bold text retained in step 10?

To make things even more puzzling, I repeated the above steps but in step 7 I changed the colour instead of the weight. FM repeated step 8. In step 9 I said remove the override. In step 10 the bold text was not removed - it was retained!?!?

I am indeed baffled. Either there is an override or there isn't.  Can you make sense of this for me please?

Tony

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Apr 25, 2018 0
Community Beginner ,
Apr 26, 2018

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Barb, Matt could I please get a response to my example posted late yesterday?

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Apr 26, 2018 0
Community Beginner ,
Apr 26, 2018

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It seems to me that Framemaker is acting a bit buggy....unless I am misunderstanding overrides and as is.....

Thanks for your help

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Apr 26, 2018 0
Adobe Community Professional ,
Apr 26, 2018

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I would - 1. make sure that your copy of FM2015 is all patched up - according to the direct updates page (https://supportdownloads.adobe.com/product.jsp?product=22&platform=Windows ) there have been 4 patches issued.

2. avoid overrides like the plague - they aren't best practice & generally aren't necessary

3. pick up a copy of Matt's bible so you have some reference material at hand.

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Apr 26, 2018 0
Adobe Community Professional ,
Apr 26, 2018

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Hi Tony,

Your inquiry is pretty contextual, and hard to follow in text. As a result, the answer would be hard to write out as well,and likely to be hard to follow as well.

If you like, I could screenshare and show you what's going on. Message me if you'd like me to take a peek at it. I'll send you a PM to get the thread started.

-Matt

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Apr 26, 2018 0
Adobe Community Professional ,
Apr 26, 2018

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Hi Tony:

I'm teaching today and can certainly pull screenshots later this afternoon to document the steps listed above. 

We make time to answer questions in the forum around our regular jobs—so if you don't need further help because Matt helped you outside of this post, or if you still need help—please let us know.

~Barb

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Apr 26, 2018 0
Community Beginner ,
Apr 26, 2018

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I would still appreciate your help if you can spare the time. Thanks - the scenario only takes a couple of minutes to execute....

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Apr 26, 2018 0
Community Beginner ,
Apr 26, 2018

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Thanks for the screen sharing offer Matt.

What I'd really like is to find a way I can share my screen with you so that you can watch me execute my scenario.

I could walk through it and I hope you could explain what FM is doing....

Is there a way to do that?  Or alternatively can you share your screen with me and I can tell you the steps I took and talk you through it?

Maybe we can do it through Skype?

If you can give me your Skype id I can call you and I believe I can share my screen with you....

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Apr 26, 2018 0
Adobe Community Professional ,
Apr 26, 2018

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Certainly, I sent you a meeting link, and (of course) afterward we'll update the thread for future reference.

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Apr 26, 2018 0
Community Beginner ,
Apr 26, 2018

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So Matt and I walked through the scenario.

In step 5 it doesn't find an override because for those bolded words the Emphasis style says Bold.

In step 8 it asks about overrides because there is some text that is not regular weight.

In step 10 it should retain the bold text, but it doesn't. This may be a bug.

In the second scenario:

In step 5 it doesn't find an override, for the same reason as in scenario 1

in step 8 it asks about overrides because there is text that is not red

In step 10 it doesn't remove the bold text because the bold text is still governed by a weight of "as is" and there is no reason to change it.

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Apr 26, 2018 0
Adobe Community Professional ,
Apr 26, 2018

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Hi Tony, thanks for letting me take a peek at your doc.

A recap: Because your character tag still had As Is as the value for Weight, there was no override to be found (Find/Change) or removed (Character Designer).

Interestingly, we did find a subtle bug in Fm 2015 with the Remove Overrides option, but since Fm 2015 is already out of date, I wouldn't expect a fix for that issue anytime soon!

-Matt

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Apr 26, 2018 0
Community Beginner ,
Apr 26, 2018

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Barb I don't need your help anymore after going over this with Matt. Thanks anyway!

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Apr 26, 2018 0
Community Beginner ,
Apr 26, 2018

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Matt, I'm still confused about one thing.

I thought anytime you made a one-off change to a character format and hit APPLY, you created an override.

So when I made those 2 words bold by hitting APPLY to me it should have been an override. But FM says there isn't an override.

Is it considered a non-override because the basic Emphasis style has "As Is" for the "weight" field? (which means the weight is ignored)?

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Apr 26, 2018 0
Adobe Community Professional ,
Apr 26, 2018

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Correct...your character tag is defined as As Is, meaning Fm should ignore the Weight property. When searching for overrides, Fm did exactly what you told it to...it didn't consider the weight of the characters.

-Matt

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Apr 26, 2018 0