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FrameMaker 2017 - Unable to Use Space Under Table/Table Anchor Separates from Table

Community Beginner ,
Nov 30, 2018

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I did not create this documentation originally, so I am not familiar with any buried setting(s) that may be causing this issue. Please refer to the image below and the description that follows.

The top of the image shows the majority of the table and the bottom of the image shows the table continuation onto the next page. However, when the table continues onto the next page, the table caption gets pushed down to the beginning of the following page, even with plenty of room under the table. Not included in the image is the table anchor tag completely separating from the table and creating a new page to itself. I was able to fix the table anchor issue by setting the table to start a Top of Page, but I am lost on the other issue.

If anyone knows why this formatting issue is occurring, please let me know!

Thanks! 

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FrameMaker 2017 - Unable to Use Space Under Table/Table Anchor Separates from Table

Community Beginner ,
Nov 30, 2018

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I did not create this documentation originally, so I am not familiar with any buried setting(s) that may be causing this issue. Please refer to the image below and the description that follows.

The top of the image shows the majority of the table and the bottom of the image shows the table continuation onto the next page. However, when the table continues onto the next page, the table caption gets pushed down to the beginning of the following page, even with plenty of room under the table. Not included in the image is the table anchor tag completely separating from the table and creating a new page to itself. I was able to fix the table anchor issue by setting the table to start a Top of Page, but I am lost on the other issue.

If anyone knows why this formatting issue is occurring, please let me know!

Thanks! 

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Nov 30, 2018 0
Adobe Community Professional ,
Nov 30, 2018

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Just to confirm, you went into Table Designer and the Title is set to Below Table? What's the Gap set to? I did a quick test table, and these work the way you'd expect.

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Nov 30, 2018 0
Community Beginner ,
Nov 30, 2018

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I went into Table Designer to set the Start setting to "Top of Page." The Title is set to "No Title."

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Nov 30, 2018 0
Adobe Community Professional ,
Nov 30, 2018

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OK, then part of your problem is that the caption isn't part of the table. It also sounds like what you actually have there is TWO tables, not one, or you wouldn't have the caption appearing at the top of the next page in between the table sections.

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Nov 30, 2018 0
Community Beginner ,
Nov 30, 2018

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It's one table that continues onto the following page. The white space under the table continuation is unusable ; I am not able to write/place anything in that space. The table caption (which is a separate paragraph tag) is pushed to the page below the table continuation. However, it should sit under the table. I've looked at every relevant setting in Table Designer (to my knowledge), and it remains a mystery.

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Nov 30, 2018 0
Adobe Community Professional ,
Nov 30, 2018

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If you want the table caption to sit under the table on each page it appears, you will have to use Title: Below Table. There is no other way in Frame that I know of that will do what you want automatically.

The only way I can figure out that you have the title appearing in the manner you describe is if it's in a table row of its own. If it is, then you can select the row and cut and paste it above the last row on the previous page.

If you want to send me the file in an email, I can take a look at it to see if I can figure out what's going on.

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Nov 30, 2018 1
Adobe Community Professional ,
Dec 02, 2018

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HI Clayton:

I can't see enough of the document to be able to help you. Can you show us 3 screen shots please:

  1. the table anchor with surrounding area for context (click on it and show Paragraph Designer > Pagination) and
  2. the Table Designer > Basic properties (with your cursor in the table)?
  3. the caption ¶ (click on it and show show Paragraph Designer > Pagination)

~Barb

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Dec 02, 2018 0
Community Beginner ,
Dec 03, 2018

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Yes, I'd be glad to provide those screen shots.

1.The top screenshot shows the table anchor and the paragraph designer with the pagination info.

2.The second screenshot shows the Table Designer for the table with the basic properties info.

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Dec 03, 2018 0
Community Beginner ,
Dec 03, 2018

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For some reason, I am not able to post anymore images...

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Dec 03, 2018 0
Adobe Community Professional ,
Dec 03, 2018

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Hi Clayton:

I'm not sure why you aren't able to post additional screen shots. When you reply to this message, use the button shown below to add screen shots.

JIVE Add screen shot to reply.png

I see some curious choices in the two screen shots that you did post:

  1. We normally put the table title in the table title section of the table. It appears that your title is its own paragraph above the anchor and the option to add a table title is disabled in the Table Designer. It's not wrong, but is there a reason for that? Table titles added to the table frame repeat automatically when a table is split across multiple pages.
  2. The anchor is on an otherwise empty paragraph. It is set to 100 widow/orphan lines and must stay with both the next and the previous paragraphs. It is only one line (and will likely always only be one line) so it doesn't need the 100 w/o lines specified, and you might try disabling keep with next and previous (Update Style) to see what happens. (Work on a copy of the file.) When Fm tries to follow the rules set and can't for whatever reason, odd things happen.
  3. Finally, the table itself has the orphan rows set to 100, which means the table should always stay on a single page. (Again, when Fm tries to follow the rules set and can't for whatever reason, odd things happen.) I would normally set that to two, and Update Style.

~Barb

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Dec 03, 2018 1
Community Beginner ,
Dec 04, 2018

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Barb, thank you for the suggestions! I will update my files per your suggestions and see how that goes.

My first screenshot in my previous reply is a little misleading with the table captions. You are correct that we are using a paragraph tag as a table caption/title, but we insert them below the table. I did not create the conventions for this book, but I imagine the caption/title is a separate tag in order to generate a LOT (List of Tables).

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Dec 04, 2018 0
Adobe Community Professional ,
Dec 04, 2018

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It doesn't have to be a separate paragraph outside of the table to be included in a list of tables. You apply the tag to the table title added by Frame, and use that tag to generate your list.

If you keep it as a separate paragraph, that is, not part of the table, then it will never appear at the bottom of the table on the first page if the table breaks across pages. It will only appear after the entire table.

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Dec 04, 2018 1
Adobe Community Professional ,
Dec 04, 2018

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Although I suppose you could put it into a footing row. But that seems to be an unnecessary workaround when FM already has a structure that does what you say you need.

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Dec 04, 2018 0
Adobe Community Professional ,
Dec 04, 2018

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Hi Clayton:

linsimsis correct—you can use Table Designer's option to add the title/caption below the table and still call it into the LOT. You can even use the current tag name so as to not mess up the existing LOT.

Screen Shot 2018-12-04 at 12.34.06 PM.png

Again, it's not that having the table title as its own paragraph is wrong—and there is another more important problem with your table that we haven't identified yet—but it is an easy way to manage the title locations.

~Barb

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Dec 04, 2018 0
Adobe Community Professional ,
Dec 05, 2018

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Hi,

I assume that Clayton can add a regular table title when he sets this correctly in the table designer.

However, he also reported that the table and the next paragraph (his table title) have a gap which is too big.

I do not know the cause in his case, but now and then (last time was probably a year ago with FM 2015) I also have the problem, that FrameMaker blocks lots of space below a table which I cannot edit. The next paragraph comes with a much bigger gap than set in the table designer and the paragraph designer. As far as I remember the distance below had the same height as the last table row. It was definitely a bug. Other tables with the same format had the correct distance below.

Best regards

Winfried

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Dec 05, 2018 1
Community Beginner ,
Dec 05, 2018

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Winfriend,

It has to be a bug. I can recreate the problem in other others of the documentation as well, but the behavior is just so bizarre. You are correct, I can add a table title through the table designer (above or below), but my organization does things a little differently, so we use separate paragraph tag placed directly below the table called 'Table Caption." When the table continues onto the following page, the ginormous gap.

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Dec 05, 2018 0
Adobe Community Professional ,
Dec 05, 2018

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Hi Clayton:

My documents require the use of a lot of tables, and I’ve never encountered this bug in any version. This may well be a bug but there are other areas I would explore before coming to that conclusion, including the ones I mentioned earlier.

I am happy to take a look at the file.

~Barb

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Dec 05, 2018 0
Community Beginner ,
Dec 05, 2018

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Barb,

Your earlier suggestions about reducing the amount of Orphan Rows worked for the table anchor separation, but the non-editable space under the table on the second page is still a mystery, which is were I want to place my table caption.

Thanks

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Dec 05, 2018 1
Adobe Community Professional ,
Dec 06, 2018

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Hi Clayton, it's less of a bug, and more a result of the combination of things you're asking Fm to do.

Starting a table at top of column (per your screenshot), avoiding using Fm's table title functionality (per your earlier post), and setting your orphan rows to 100 (screenshot) each have an impact, as does the paragraph format controlling the table anchor itself.

Try creating a new table format that uses the defaults, and places a table title below the table. Place a table using this format into a body paragraph, and see how it responds. If you now have something manageable, then you can slightly tweak your table and paragraph formats to get what you need.

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Dec 06, 2018 0
Adobe Employee ,
Dec 18, 2018

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Is the table at the end of the document? In this case, the table will just render to that last page because it does not fit on the second-to-last page anymore. However, the end text flow (displayed as "§") is actually on the second to last page (or wherever your table starts).

Make sure that the text symbols are visible (View > Text Symbols), go to the beginning of the table, look for the table anchor in the paragraph before the table and place the text insertion mark there.

My hunch here is that at the end of your text flow you have this situation:

Some text¶

§

While is the table anchor. Please place the text insertion mark between and § and then hit return. This will add another (empty) paragraph below the table.

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Dec 18, 2018 0
Community Beginner ,
Dec 18, 2018

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Stefan,

Thank you for the suggestion. The table is not at the end of the document.

The red arrow is pointing to the table caption paragraph tag. In the page above, there is a massive amount of white space below the table continuation where I wish to place the table caption. However, as you can see, the paragraph tag is pushed to the top of the following page. That is my current issue.

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Dec 18, 2018 0
Adobe Community Professional ,
Dec 18, 2018

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As I offered before, I'm happy to look at the file. You can put it on dropbox and post a link here (public) or message me (private).

~Barb

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Dec 18, 2018 0