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Tables & Start: Top of Column Positioning

Community Beginner ,
May 31, 2019

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Hello! I have tried to find this answer on my own, through various methods, to no avail.

I am using FrameMaker 2019 (fully updated) on Windows 10 64bit.

When I insert a table, the Style is Format A, and I go in to the Table Designer and set the Start position at Top of Page or Top of Column, the table starts at the top of the next page. This leaves me with one blank page. If I delete this page, then it deletes the table as well. I have tried this on a working document and on a completely new, fresh, blank document and the behavior is the same.

My question is:  What steps does one need to take to make it so that when the Start position for a table is Top of Page or Top of Column, that the table starts at the top of the same page that the table was created on?

Thanks for the help!

Adobe Community Professional
Correct answer by Winfried Reng | Adobe Community Professional

HI brothaz,

My tables start at the top of a page (if I want to), and that's what others had already said:

Create a new paragraph style, e.g. "anchor".

Set space below to e.g. -12 pt. You do not need to change the font size or space above or line spacing.

Now insert a table in this new, empty paragraph.

Set the Table Margin Top to the same negative value (e.g. -12 pt).

The default value for the table start is "Anywhwere". Do not change this.

When the anchor paragraph is the first paragraph in your file, the table starts exactly at the top of the page.

You control the positioin of the table with your anchor paragraph.

When it should be just in the middle of a page, then Pagination of the anchor paragraph should be Anywhere.

It the table should be at the top of a page, then change the Page Break properties (Next available column, etc.) of the anchor paragraph. Or change the pagination of the paragraph. Whatever you prefer.

Best regards

Winfried

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Tables & Start: Top of Column Positioning

Community Beginner ,
May 31, 2019

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Hello! I have tried to find this answer on my own, through various methods, to no avail.

I am using FrameMaker 2019 (fully updated) on Windows 10 64bit.

When I insert a table, the Style is Format A, and I go in to the Table Designer and set the Start position at Top of Page or Top of Column, the table starts at the top of the next page. This leaves me with one blank page. If I delete this page, then it deletes the table as well. I have tried this on a working document and on a completely new, fresh, blank document and the behavior is the same.

My question is:  What steps does one need to take to make it so that when the Start position for a table is Top of Page or Top of Column, that the table starts at the top of the same page that the table was created on?

Thanks for the help!

Adobe Community Professional
Correct answer by Winfried Reng | Adobe Community Professional

HI brothaz,

My tables start at the top of a page (if I want to), and that's what others had already said:

Create a new paragraph style, e.g. "anchor".

Set space below to e.g. -12 pt. You do not need to change the font size or space above or line spacing.

Now insert a table in this new, empty paragraph.

Set the Table Margin Top to the same negative value (e.g. -12 pt).

The default value for the table start is "Anywhwere". Do not change this.

When the anchor paragraph is the first paragraph in your file, the table starts exactly at the top of the page.

You control the positioin of the table with your anchor paragraph.

When it should be just in the middle of a page, then Pagination of the anchor paragraph should be Anywhere.

It the table should be at the top of a page, then change the Page Break properties (Next available column, etc.) of the anchor paragraph. Or change the pagination of the paragraph. Whatever you prefer.

Best regards

Winfried

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May 31, 2019 0
Adobe Community Professional ,
May 31, 2019

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Perhaps the main control for table location is the Pagination properties of the paragraph in which the table is anchored.

A trick there, which usually arises in multi-column layouts, where you want continuations to all be top-aligned, also works for what you want to do.

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May 31, 2019 0
Community Beginner ,
May 31, 2019

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Thanks Bob! I took a look at the Pagination properties and tried adjusting the Start position under there. I also checked and unchecked the Keep With boxes for both the Previous Paragraph and Next Paragraph items. I also changed the Format and Alignment settings under Pagination, but none of that resolved the issue of the table starting at the top of the next page when using Top of Page of Top of Column in the Table Designer.

I ran in to that link/suggestion during my original search for an answer. I admit, I am unfamiliar with how to create paragraph tags nor can I seem to find a satisfactory "how-to" from the searches I have performed. Or perhaps my vernacular is not the same (or correct). Is creating a new paragraph tag the same as creating a paragraph style?

I also just found this post which is basically my same question. However, following those instructions does not yield the desired results as well.

Apparently I am doing something wrong and/or not understanding how to properly implement the steps.

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May 31, 2019 0
Engaged ,
Jun 01, 2019

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Tags and styles are the same.

1. Make sure that your table paragraph tag is on a separate row.

2. From what I read here, I have a feeling that a double negative won't work.

i.e. using "top of page" for both the table and the table anchor paragraph tag/style will not give you what you need. It will separate them out.

If you choose top of page for the table properties, then choose anywhere for the paragraph tag/style

I see you sent settings for an anchored frame, I do not set this up, but I checked my settings and they are "below current line"  see if using this setting helps?

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Jun 01, 2019 0
Adobe Community Professional ,
Jun 01, 2019

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Hi brothaz:

I just move the anchor the end of a paragraph that appears near the bottom of the previous page. You can drop and drop an anchor or cut and paste.

~Barb

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Jun 01, 2019 0
Community Beginner ,
Jun 01, 2019

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Thanks BarbBinder​! I'm not sure why I am feeling obtuse on this issue. I ran across your article from 2009 here and I have read the comments and attempted the suggestions, but I am still having the same behavior. I am unable to drag and drop the anchor. I have provided a screenshot of my setup in hopes that it may help.

The table anchor is located at the top of the first page, however, the table appears at the top of the second page.

2019-06-01 - Adobe FrameMaker - Table.jpg

I'm unsure if you can view the details of the Table Designer tab on the right, so I have added an additional screenshot of that setup below:

2019-06-01 - Adobe FrameMaker - Table Designer.jpg

Thanks again to everyone's time, help and input!

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Jun 01, 2019 0
Adobe Community Professional ,
Jun 03, 2019

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Hi brothaz​:

My apologies. I gave you a very incomplete answer. Let me try this again:

Two page spread, and I want the table at the top of the second page:

Screen Shot 2019-06-03 at 8.16.29 AM.png

I add (or drag) the anchor to the bottom of the previous page:

Screen Shot 2019-06-03 at 8.16.42 AM.png

I then assign a table style set Float (not top of page) and adjust the Orphan Rows to keep the table from breaking across pages. Float allows the paragraph that was originally after the table—"Pour over swag bicycle..." to backfill which moves it to the bottom of the previous page. By placing the anchor at the bottom I can use a fairly low number for orphan rows consistently and not need an override.

Screen Shot 2019-06-03 at 8.19.32 AM.png

~Barb

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Jun 03, 2019 0
Community Beginner ,
Jun 03, 2019

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Hi BarbBinder​, thanks for the help! I'm able to get the table to start at the top of the second page without issue. My issue is that I would like to have the table start at the top of the first page. However, it seems like this is not possible without doing the trick of making the paragraph font super small, and removing the top table margins. Even then, it is not quite at the top of the page, but pretty close.

What set me out on this journey is that I am re-writing an owners manual and I have a version of the manual where I have a few pages where the tables start at the top of the page. However, upon closer inspection, I am now realizing that the anchor for the table is on the proceeding page and not on the same page where the table starts.

I'm looking to break each chapter out in to its own FrameMaker file to make them easier to manage/edit/maintain. In the below screenshot, page 14 is the end of Chapter 1. However, page 14 is also the page that contains the anchor for the table that starts the first page of Chapter 2.

2019-06-03 - Page 14 - Table Anchor.JPG

If the first page of Chapter 2 start off with the table, then I cannot have the table start exactly at the top like it is in the above screenshot (without doing the trick of making the paragraph style font super small, and removing the top table margins). I don't particularly enjoy that workaround.

I assume there isn't a way to just insert a table on page 1 and just have it start at the top of the page 1 without performing the font size workaround, is that correct?

If that assumption is correct, then I'll just have to find another method to cope with the layout of the manual.

Thanks again for your time and help!

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Jun 03, 2019 0
Adobe Community Professional ,
Jun 03, 2019

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Hi brothaz:

Yes, your assumption is likely correct, but maybe I can find a work-around based on the little glimpse I have of the top of your page 15. Is it possible to share page 15 with me via a private message? (Put on dropbox and message me the link.) If the information is proprietary, you could replace the current text with dummy text.

~Barb

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Jun 03, 2019 0
Adobe Community Professional ,
Jun 04, 2019

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HI brothaz,

My tables start at the top of a page (if I want to), and that's what others had already said:

Create a new paragraph style, e.g. "anchor".

Set space below to e.g. -12 pt. You do not need to change the font size or space above or line spacing.

Now insert a table in this new, empty paragraph.

Set the Table Margin Top to the same negative value (e.g. -12 pt).

The default value for the table start is "Anywhwere". Do not change this.

When the anchor paragraph is the first paragraph in your file, the table starts exactly at the top of the page.

You control the positioin of the table with your anchor paragraph.

When it should be just in the middle of a page, then Pagination of the anchor paragraph should be Anywhere.

It the table should be at the top of a page, then change the Page Break properties (Next available column, etc.) of the anchor paragraph. Or change the pagination of the paragraph. Whatever you prefer.

Best regards

Winfried

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Jun 04, 2019 0
Adobe Employee ,
Jun 04, 2019

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The "Top of Page" setting is a pagination setting, not a table formatting setting. That is, it defines where the table will start: On this page, or on top of the next page. It is not a "margin above table" formatting setting. You could read "Start: Top of Page" also as "Start: Top of (next available text frame of the same flow name on this or the next) Page".

It is working for tables in the same way as "Start: Top of Page" works for a paragraph style (see tab "Pagination" in paragraph designer): If you define "Start: Top of Page" for a paragraph style it also does not position the paragraph with this setting applied to the top border of the current text frame but pushes this paragraph into the next available (connected) text frame on the next page containing such a frame.

It is important to understand this difference to get clarity about the issue discussed here.

You can of course "hack this": Create a small "placeholder" text frame, connect it with your main text flow, place the table into the placeholder text frame (make sure this frame is small enough, so that only the anchor paragraph fits into it), and then let the table itself flow into the main text flow.

Like this:

However, I'm not so much a fan of such constructions. Personally, I would rethink the whole construction. Especially I would look at how the text frames are connected or not. Looks like you have the chapter title as a disconnected frame/text flow. This probably causes a lot of post editing work (realigning) whenever text changes in the main text flow. Or e.g. after translation.

My recommendation here (also with regards to future compatibility and other output formats than PDF) to find a unified construction with just one text flow (per chapter/topic).

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Jun 04, 2019 0
Community Beginner ,
Jun 04, 2019

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I want to express my gratitude to everyone who has helped me out with this situation; all of your help and input is truly appreciated! (Thank you BarbBinder​, winfried​ and Stefan!)

I'm not sure what it was that clicked for me, but winfried​, your posted is what rendered the outcome I was looking for. I feel confident that this is what others were trying to express in some of the other materials that were suggested to me or that I had read - but whatever it was - your post is what made it work for me in a repeatable manner.

BarbBinder​, I appreciate your willingness to keep working with me on finding a solution/educating me - thanks so much!

Stefan, I'll admit that I am not quite following everything in your post. However, I am able to understand some of it and I appreciate your educational input as well. I appreciate and thank you taking the time to respond to my post and assist me!

For me, this question has been answered and thank you all again!!

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Jun 04, 2019 1
Adobe Community Professional ,
Jun 04, 2019

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We are always happy to help, brothaz​!

~Barb

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