Adjustment to size of Primary Text Frame on Parent Page is not updated in Document

[mazdaspeed]

Adjustment to size of Primary Text Frame on Parent Page is not updated on document pages where the Parent Page is already applied.

Assumptions: all pages in document use parent pages, and all parent pages use Primary Text Frames. No document pages have any Parent Page overrides.

Here's the workflow:

1.  Parent Page D uses Primary Text Frame with top of frame inset to 30 mm on Y axis, and is used for the first page of every book chapter.
2.  On Parent Page D, I adjust the height of the primary text frame to something other than 30 mm (say 40 mm).
3. The document pages with Parent Page D already applied do not automatically resize. I'm forced to manually reapply Parent Page D to all the relevant pages in the document.

This is cumbersome and time-consuming. Making a different type of change to a Parent Page, such as a para style, is automatically applied everywhere. Can someone say if this is expected behavior?

[Eugene Tyson · Accepted solution]

It has to be overwritten.

Delete all from the page.

Drag the parent page to the corresponding page in the page panel to reapply the parent page.

[mazdaspeed]

Deleting all is not even necessary. Dragging the page to reapply works fine, and is the intended design for Primary Text Frames.

My question is why this even necessary, and whether this failure to update existing pages is the indended design? If it is the intended design, what's the purpose?

Please validate that this is functioning as intended. Maybe I simply need to make a design request? But it would best if someone could validate first.

[mazdaspeed]

Sorry, I didn't see where you said it "has to be overwritten." Is there a purpose behind that?

[mazdaspeed]

How is this the correct answer? For the sake of anyone coming here for help, please explain why everything should be deleted from the page before reapplying the parent. As I see it, this defeats the purpose of using Primary Text Frames.

[mazdaspeed]

Craziest thing. I just updated the primary text frame size again on the parent page, and this time is was applied at all 15 chapters in the document. Which is what I would expect from a change made to a parent page.

[mazdaspeed]

Here's clarification.

Not all 15 chapter pages were updated as I last stated. All pages where I had recently dragged the Parent Page onto the document pages were updated. So, I finished reapplying to all 15 chapters, then went into the parent page and adjusted the text frame size, and all 15 chapter pages were immediately updated. This is good.

Anyone unfamiliar with using Primary Text Frames should really look into the benefits. They have saved me many hours of work.

[Robert at ID-Tasker]

@mazdaspeed

Have you moved TFs on the "normal" pages at any point?

[mazdaspeed]

No, what I had done is resize the document from 9x6 to 5.5x8.5, plus margin adjustments. After that I selected all pages in the Story and applied my default Parent Page. Then I go through and apply the Parent Page for chapter starts. Several days later I realized I would be better served by decreasing my bottom margin by 1 mm. After doing that, my inset for the chapter pages was an odd amount, so I adjusted that on the Parent Page and it wouldn't refresh in the main document without manually dragging the parent onto each page. However, now it's all working to update on the fly.

[Robert at ID-Tasker]

@mazdaspeed

Can you post some screenshots of your chapter start Parent page?

What if you change Primary TF for regular pages? Will they refresh - without re-applying Parents? 

[mazdaspeed]

Yes, primary text frames refresh without re-applying the parent. More importantly, you can drage a parent that has a primary text frame onto any page that has a primary text frame, and the page is immediatedly updated withe elements and text is re-flowed, if applicable. Primary text frames have the little black page icon showing at the top left side when the frame is selected. They are set up on the parent page when the first creating the document. They can be added after the fact, but it's a convoluted process.

[Robert at ID-Tasker · Accepted solution]

@mazdaspeed

https://helpx.adobe.com/uk/indesign/using/parent-pages.html 

Override parent item attributes

Overriding a parent item puts a copy of it on the document page without breaking its association with the parent page. Once the item itself is overridden, you can selectively override one or more attributes of the item to customize it. For example, you can change the fill color of the local copy. After that, changes to the fill color on the parent page itself will not update to the local copy. However, other attributes, such as size, will continue to update because they have not been overridden on the local copy. Overrides can be removed later to make the object match the parent.

Attributes you can override for a parent page object include strokes, fills, contents of a frame, and any transformations (such as rotating, scaling, shearing, or resizing), corner options, text frame options, lock state, transparency, and object effects.

Somehow at some point - directly or indirectly - you must've changed the size / location of the TFs on document chapter pages and broke the link to TF on Master / Parent.

[mazdaspeed]

It would seem so, yes. This is why I needed to know what behavior to expect. That is, whether I should expect that text frame size changes at the parent page should update throughtout the document where the parent pge is in use. That's not what the first reply to my question indicated. Regardless, it's now resolved.

[Eugene Tyson]

It is exactly what I said. 

[mazdaspeed]

That explains nothing. Not helpful.

[Eugene Tyson]

Adjustment to size of Primary Text Frame on Parent Page is not updated on document pages where the Parent Page is already applied.

Assumptions: all pages in document use parent pages, and all parent pages use Primary Text Frames. No document pages have any Parent Page overrides.

Here's the workflow:

1.  Parent Page D uses Primary Text Frame with top of frame inset to 30 mm on Y axis, and is used for the first page of every book chapter.
2.  On Parent Page D, I adjust the height of the primary text frame to something other than 30 mm (say 40 mm).
3. The document pages with Parent Page D already applied do not automatically resize. I'm forced to manually reapply Parent Page D to all the relevant pages in the document.

By @mazdaspeed

It has to be overwritten.

Delete all from the page.

Drag the parent page to the corresponding page in the page panel to reapply the parent page.

By @Eugene Tyson 

That explains nothing. Not helpful.

By @mazdaspeed

I explained it must be overwritten and gave you the advice that I would do.

Delete the items from the page. Reset the page by dragging it to the page in the pages panel.

As I said at the start - it must be overwritten.

You were adamant that you had not overwritten it.

My advice was to reapply and ensure it's not overwritten.

I'm not sure how it's not helpful.

Thanks

[Eugene Tyson]

Adjustment to size of Primary Text Frame on Parent Page is not updated on document pages where the Parent Page is already applied.

Assumptions: all pages in document use parent pages, and all parent pages use Primary Text Frames. No document pages have any Parent Page overrides.

Here's the workflow:

1.  Parent Page D uses Primary Text Frame with top of frame inset to 30 mm on Y axis, and is used for the first page of every book chapter.
2.  On Parent Page D, I adjust the height of the primary text frame to something other than 30 mm (say 40 mm).
3. The document pages with Parent Page D already applied do not automatically resize. I'm forced to manually reapply Parent Page D to all the relevant pages in the document.

By @mazdaspeed

[Eugene Tyson]

Delete all from the page.

Drag the parent page to the corresponding page in the page panel to reapply the parent page.

[mazdaspeed]

At this point I'm simply trying to make it clear for the next person who encounters this issue, so my question is, what items are you saying to delete from the page? The non-parent page contents within the primary text frame? No, and that's the issue here. Newbies will think you are specifying the deletion of non-parent items unless you explicitly say otherwise.

The page(s) in question here never had any parent items overriden, so how can they be deleted? I was adamant there were no overrides. "No document pages have any Parent Page overrides."   Were not going to now set the page to override the parent items and then delete those items that were never overriden. That's futile and confusing the issue.

The only thing I might have done to cause this is to adjust the text frame on the document page(s) in question, which doesn't require and override of the parent page. When using Primary Text Frames, simply dropping the parent page onto the document page, once again, refreshes everything that is associated with the parent, plus it reflows all non-parent items within the primary text frame.

[Robert at ID-Tasker]

[...]

The page(s) in question here never had any parent items overriden, [...]

By @mazdaspeed

That's not entirely true.

This is a blank document:

The only TFs are on the Masters / Parents.

But after you import text - or just start adding new pages - and Parent / Master has Primary TextFrame - those Primary TFs get automatically overriden:

[Eugene Tyson]

Yeh fair enough.

I was only pointing in the direction I could have been clearer perhaps.

It would be an idea for a feature request to highlight override items from a parent page.

I would agree it's not entirely clear.

And it is confusing for them end user as to why it has not behaved as expected

Wonder can it be scripted to highlight the item(s)

[mazdaspeed]

You are obviously miles beyond me in experience, but that's also why I wanted to get this down more explicitly. I was newbie just 3 years ago and I'm sensitive to what's helpful from that perspective, and what's not.

I've wanted to address this issue for well over a year, but it's time-consuming and one has to decide what's worth the effort, or not. 

I appreciate you hanging in here with me long enough to flesh it out.

[Robert at ID-Tasker]

[...]

I appreciate you hanging in here with me long enough to flesh it out.

By @mazdaspeed

Can you clarify to whom you are responding?

Would be great if when you reply next time - you quote part of the message you are responding to.

Unfortunately, this forum stops intending replies after it gets deeper than 3rd or 4th level.

[mazdaspeed]

[...]

I appreciate you hanging in here with me long enough to flesh it out.

By @mazdaspeed

Can you clarify to whom you are responding?

Would be great if when you reply next time - you quote part of the message you are responding to.

Unfortunately, this forum stops intending replies after it gets deeper than 3rd or 4th level.

By @Robert at ID-Tasker

Yes, I did get confused about who I replied to,  and where, and didn't realize you had entered back into the conversation. Your response with the spreadsheet is beyond my comprehension level, but I do get it in concept.

I was responding to Eugene in regards to hanging in there because I felt his solution lacked clarity and could leave someone less experienced confused. It was not that long ago that an Expert chided me for answering my own question and not being explicit about the solution...

Thanks to both of you for working through this with me,

[Eugene Tyson]

By your description of the issue you sounded more informed. Some people need more guidance, but based on your post I thought you were just missing the obvious, happens to me about 10 times a day and doing it for 25 years.

[Eugene Tyson]

I came up with this script @mazdaspeed 

It will check the pages for overwritten Parent Page items
However, if the item is deleted it won't find it - not sure if that's an issue for you - if it's deleted it won't show the result

Copy this text to a plain text editor - save it as a name you want and change the File Extension to .jsx

https://creativepro.com/how-to-install-scripts-in-indesign/

It should list the pages where items have been overwritten

#target indesign

// Function to check for overridden items and log their page numbers and details
function listOverriddenItems() {
    var doc = app.activeDocument;
    var overriddenItems = [];

    // Loop through all the pages in the document
    for (var i = 0; i < doc.pages.length; i++) {
        var page = doc.pages[i];
        var pageItems = page.allPageItems;

        // Loop through all items on the page
        for (var j = 0; j < pageItems.length; j++) {
            var item = pageItems[j];

            // Check if the item is overridden
            if (item.overridden) {
                var itemInfo = {
                    pageNumber: page.name,
                    itemName: item.name,
                    itemType: item.constructor.name
                };
                overriddenItems.push(itemInfo);
            }
        }
    }

    // Log the results
    if (overriddenItems.length > 0) {
        var result = "Overridden items found:\n\n";
        for (var k = 0; k < overriddenItems.length; k++) {
            result += "Page: " + overriddenItems[k].pageNumber + ", Item: " + overriddenItems[k].itemName + " (" + overriddenItems[k].itemType + ")\n";
        }
        alert(result);
    } else {
        alert("No overridden items found.");
    }
}

// Run the function
listOverriddenItems();