Document setup instructions

[Chris P. Bacon]

It has been said previously that the instructions of my printing company are vague, so I don't understand now if the jacket (back cover + front cover + spine) will be cut out from the same piece of paper, or each of them separately?

Because if only 1 piece of paper, then I will need to add extra spacing only for the boundary of the jacket as a whole.

If separate pieces, then I will need to add the safety margins and bleeds around each of the 3 pages.

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Above it's possible to download the 2 guidance documents for the setup (PDFs).

If anyone could take a look at it to determine the answer?

Thanks in advance.

[Chris P. Bacon]

They are online at the links, no need to download. (Dropbox)

[Robert Tkaczyk]

Why does it matter how they'll cut or print it???

Instruction is pretty clear to me - do it as one piece with extras for safety and trimming. 

[rob day]

so I don't understand now if the jacket (back cover + front cover + spine) will be cut out from the same piece of paper, or each of them separately?

A book jacket is folded.

[Chris P. Bacon]

Right, as I expected it.

That means that any extra spacing that the description is talking about has to be added only around the jacket as a whole, and no safety spacings are required in between the jacket pages - just to make sure that others think the same.

[Chris P. Bacon]

I added 3 mm bleed around the jacket, and the graphical content of the 3 jacket pages is expanded until the outer boundary of the jacket bleed, and there is no text nearby the inner boundary of the bleed. 

So it should be good to go - if others also agree.

[Chris P. Bacon]

The guidance doesn't make it clear that the jacket needs safety margin or bleed as a whole, not separately for each jacket page.

Similarily, my document bleed is applied to my spreads as a whole, not separately to the spread pages.

Hopefully it's correct.

[rob day]

Yes you need bleeds. If you are providing the jacket as 3 pages as opposed to a single spread, they would have to reassemble the pages with their imposition software. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imposition

In any case the assembled jacket gets trimmed so you need a bleed

[Chris P. Bacon]

But can you confirm that even if I provide my jacket and my content spreads as separate pages (as I do), the bleed (and extra safety margins they are easking for)  has to wrap the jacket as a whole and the spreads as a whole, and not individual pages?

[Brad @ Roaring Mouse]

Their instructions are assuming you are preparing the entire cover spread as one piece, in which case the bleed does only apply to the outer edges (as show in their guide). The only question I would have is: have they given you a dimension for the width of the spine based on your actual number of pages? because this would definitely affect what size you should make your document. They do mention they would manually adjust your art if something is not quite right, and they do provide a proof, so I think you have your back covered.

[Chris P. Bacon]

My message to them:

According to my calculations the spine thickness is:

50 x 170 GSM pages = 10600 micron  (212 micron thickness per page)
2 x 300 GSM cover pages = 700 micron (350 micron thickness per page)
TOTAL = 11300 micron = 11.3 mm is my spine thickness

So the total dimensions for my spine page would be 11.3 mm width x 297 mm height (A4) + 3 mm bleed, is this correct?

Do I have to add the 5 mm extra inner margin also for my spine page?

Their reply to me:

Here are  the two options to follow, regarding your spine:

-spine with of 52 pages of 170 GSM in silk  will be 3,98 mm

-spine with of 52 pages of 170 GSM in gloss will be 2,78 mm

So we have different calculations of my spine, but I will have to listen to them.

52 pages for perfect binding is too narrow for a proper spine I guess, for a spine that should have readable text on - can you confirm?

I will add some more pages.

[Chris P. Bacon]

And they did not reply to my question:

Do I have to add the 5 mm extra inner margin also for my spine page?

[Chris P. Bacon]

But my calculation must be wrong because more than 1 cm thickness for a 52 page magazine is not right.

[Chris P. Bacon]

They did gave me my spine width as I posted above, but you see that they didn't account for the different thickness of the cover, or maybe that is included in their calculation?

Anyway 52 pages for perfect bounding is not enough for having text on the spine, I guess, and I have choosen the thickest paper.

I will add more pages.

Perfect bounding 

[Creamer Training]

>>>... or maybe that is included in their calculation?

Only one way to find out--ask them!

>>>Anyway 52 pages for perfect bounding...

I'm surprised you are even able to perfect bind with so few pages. Why pay extra for something that is hardly going to be noticed?

[Chris P. Bacon]

True...

because it can increase the sell price.

Stapled magazines look more like brochures. 

And it looks better.

I need more pages. It's smart if you make a magazine so that people can actually put it on their bookshelf so that they can read the spine, because then they will read it and notice it more. One marketing reason for perfect binding.

[Creamer Training]

I know all about the marketing reasons--I was referring to the technical (page count) reasons. 

[Chris P. Bacon]

I see. I see magazines in both formats, not easy to decide really.

[Creamer Training]

Assuming the same printery is working on the guts of the book, they should give you the dimensions. I can't imagine a printery asking a customer to figure out the spine width. 

[Chris P. Bacon]

This is the EU.

Nowhere near the customer service as in the US.

Its not the same competitive environment.

[rob day]

Why not ask the printer if they want you to include the Inside Bleed? It can be set to 0 separately from the Top, Bottom, and Outside?

Their 4mm spine seems more likely than your 11mm—I’m looking at a 64pg perfect bound with an uncoated text sheet, and its spine measures around 4.5mm

[Creamer Training]

64-pages plus cover was my minimum for perfect bound magazine.

[Chris P. Bacon]

Yes I realized I have to drop in much more pages for a decent perfect binding.

[Brad @ Roaring Mouse]

As someone who has worked for a major printer here, there is no technical reason you can't do perfect bound smaller... although 28 is about the least I've ever done, but then, it was 100lb text..

An alternative is a modified saddle-stitch binding with a square-crimped fold. I have an annual report I do every year which is 40pp+Cover saddle stitch which looks like this:

 

[Chris P. Bacon]

Never seen anything like that in real life. 

It's not among the print options of my printer either.