New art boxes default to RGB when document intent is set to 'print'

[hare-in-moon]

I haven't seen this before and it's driving me mad. Indesign 20.3.1 on Mac Mini 2020 M1 15.4.1

'Document Settings: Intent' is set to 'Print' 
In the attached screenshot the underlying image (map) is CMYK. It was placed without a box; when I stroked the box black it defaulted to RGB, not CMYK. I changed the stroke to CMYK.
I checked 'Intent: Print' again, then created a new box: it filled RGB black.
So far every new box is defaulting to RGB. 

What is going on?  Is there a setting somewhere I've missed?
With respect I don't want to trust the RIP or whatever to translate on the fly. This is a print job, how do I make RGB go away?

[Mike Witherell · Accepted solution]

Hi Hareinmoon,

I'm not sure, but you might try:

With no documents open, click on Edit > Transparency Blend Space and choose CMYK.

Maybe as a further test, start up a new "Print Intent" document from the Print section of new document dialog window to see if you are getting the same outcome.

I would probably have to examine your document and map graphic to understand more. Care to share it?

[hare-in-moon]

Hi Mike, with no document open 'Transparency Blend Space' was already set to CMYK. 
Ok, that is interesting. I restarted indd and followed your suggestion: created a new 'Print Intent' document and Lo! the new 'rectangle frame' and 'rectangle tool' boxes are showing CMYK as colour mode. So there's something going on in my existing document. I will investigate further.

[rob day]

Hi @hare-in-moon , The initial fill color is sticky, so if you want to set the default fiil to a CMYK color or Swatch, set the Color panel with nothing selected. InDesign documents set to either Intent can contain a mix of color spaces, CMYK, RGB, Lab, or HSB

Thus would set the default file color to my CMYK Swatch named Gray70

[hare-in-moon]

Hi Rob, that's interesting.
I've never deliberately set a default fill for any of the artwork boxes; in the past (as far as I can recall) they open with 'no fill, no stroke' and that's fine for my purposes as they're for placed art. 
I've just created a new 'Rectangular Frame' which as I expected opened no fill, no stroke but with it selected the Colour menu for it is RGB, not CMYK. 

[BobLevine]

Be aware that regardless of anything else, "intent" is meaningless here. All it does is give you different choices for document size and a few other preferences. It has absolutely nothing to do with color modes.

Additionally, I would discourage you from using CMYK and if it's absolutely necessary, convert to CMYK when you output the file.

[rob day]

You have to watch out for the default [Black] Swatch which is not etitable. If the job is going to an offset press and the Intent is not set to Print, there is the rick of Black text outputting as 4-color and the associated registration problems.

[BobLevine]

Forgot all about that! Thanks.

[hare-in-moon]

I think I did that once, a long time ago, but caught it when I printed the separations. Back when you had to print the separations, I don't think there was a viewer 🙂

[hare-in-moon]

hi Bob, and thanks -- but how and why would you do that?
I've been working in CMYK for print since I started doing this c. 1990. With my monitor set up reasonably accurately I can see what I'm doing and what I'm likely to get. I'm not colour-critical but RGB never looks right to me.

[rob day]

The arrgument for working with RGB colors is the final CMYK space might not be known. Will it be Coated FOGRA 39 or US Sheetfed—those two CMYK profiles produce very different CMYK conversions and CMYK appearances. If you turn on Overprint Preview RGB colors will preview in the document’s CMYK space without accurately making the conversion (CMYK conversions to the wrong space are destructive).

[hare-in-moon]

ah, thank you. I normally work on projects going to a known press, so I use their preferred settings. 

[Robert at ID-Tasker]

@hare-in-moon

There was a lengthy thread about this "problem" - someone created two documents and was copying objects - and colors were slightly different in each document. 

Once you create document for "Web" - colors will be RGB - especially Black - and there is no way to make it CMYK - without creating a new document.

Same with "print" - colors will be CMYK but you can't change Black to RGB. 

[Robert at ID-Tasker]

https://community.adobe.com/t5/indesign-discussions/same-image-displays-differently-when-copying-fro...

[hare-in-moon]

Hi Robert, none of my documents are created for Web; I leave that to people who know what they're doing online 🙂 
In the existing new document created 'Intent: Print'  I created an empty frame (no fill, no stroke) that when selected showed CMYK colour mode. 
I filled that 100% K.
I then selected 'RGB' from the Options menu and the mode switched to RGB with the black now R29/G29/B27.  I seem to be able to swap colour modes on the fly with black appearing appropriately in each. Whether the change 'takes' and remains when the document is printed or otherwise output, I have no idea 🙂

[Robert at ID-Tasker]

@hare-in-moon

"filled with 100% K" or "applied [Black] swatch"?

[hare-in-moon]

'k' selected by sliding  'K' to 100%.

If I apply the [Black] swatch the colour slider shows T(for transparency? Looks like the transparency gradient. No idea, haven't done this before) at 100%.  Slide it around, I get a pleasing grey.
Interesting, the Colour 'Options' menu has nothing selected, not CMYK, not RGB, nothing. I can select one; when I selected RGB my nice mid-grey became R198/G198/B198. And that RGB grey in turn translated to a [nasty] mix of CMYK inks because the RGB levels carry through to the conversion... is that what you meant about it persisting? It's one of the reasons I stay with CMYK: some of my projects are mono black, having an RGB -> CMYK conversion gives me a black plate that isn't 100% if I don't catch it.

[Robert at ID-Tasker]

@hare-in-moon

Looks like you're working in "local firnatting / overrides" mode 😞 

You should ALWAYS create and then use Swatches. The same as when working with text - you don't format text by applying Point Size or "bold" - you apply ParaStyle or CharStyle. 

Can you post a screenshot of the "T" you mention? If it's what I think you're referring to - it's for "Text". 

With TextFrames - you can apply color to fill, stroke - or text content. 

[hare-in-moon]

Hi Robert, in this document only placed images print in colour. All text is 100% black. No swatches needed. 

[Robert at ID-Tasker]

Hi Robert, in this document only placed images print in colour. All text is 100% black. No swatches needed. 

By @hare-in-moon

Yes, but you're applying 100K "locally" to some object?

If you want something to have 100K as a fill - you should apply "[Black]" swatch.

[hare-in-moon]

Robert, the example I posted was a document created solely to show the colour mode issue.
That's not how I actually work!

[rob day]

All text is 100% black. No swatches needed.

Even if you don’t use Swatches "Black" can be defined as any color mode—CMYK, RGB, Lab, HSB—in the Color panel’s flyout menu. On an Export to PDF the exported values could also be anything depending on the Export>Ouput panel’s settings:

Left fill:

Right fill :

[hare-in-moon]

Rob, I know how the flyout menu works to specify Colour modes (although I confess I didn't know 'flyout menu' is what it is called), and I  know that black will appear differently depending on Colour mode and conversion. Seeing CMYK change to RGB in the Colour tab when I had not changed it in the flyout is why I raised this query. And I do know that PDF export settings can alter everything. I've been sending digital files to press since about 1990.

[rob day]

Seeing CMYK change to RGB in the Colour tab when I had not changed it...

There are ways the Color panel’s Mode can be changed without touching it.

Open the Color Picker, make a change to one of the R, G, or B fields and click OK

[Peter Spier]

'k' selected by sliding  'K' to 100%.

If I apply the [Black] swatch the colour slider shows T(for transparency?

By @hare-in-moon

Since nobody else seems to have mentioned it, the T you are seeing means your swatch is being applied to Text rather than the frame fill or stroke.